Extreme Cold weather gear, shooting

[stefan73]

Now that I am living in the interior of Alaska I get to experience some extremes.
What recommendations do you have for extreme cold weather?

I am not talking about you warm 20F!!! I am talking -20F to -50F!!
Tuesday 23 Oct. we had -15F.

Recommendations for firearms, gear?
How do synthetic stocks handle the cold?
Stainless steel, how does it handle the extreme cold?
Optics, issues? Heat rise?
Loss of velocity?

 

[MJY65]

Re: Extreme Cold weather gear, shooting

My experience with shooting at -20 is limited to hunting, rather than high volume target shooting, but here is what I've found:

I've had no problems with either the metal or synthetics holding up. Scope adjustments became VERY stiff (that may vary with brand). Mirage off of the barrel was present, but dissipates pretty quickly.

One thing to watch out for is condensation from your breath. Breathing on or near the lens of your scope will produce a nice coating of frost almost instantly at those temps.

 

[VJJPunisher]

Re: Extreme Cold weather gear, shooting

I carry my rifle in a tonton carcuss to keep it warm, i also wear a wool lined fleshlight at all times while shooting in that kind of cold also

 

[Cegorach]

Re: Extreme Cold weather gear, shooting

Like a previous poster said, shooting glasses and scope lenses fog and freeze very easily if you aren't careful.

Lots and lots of layers. Activity levels on the range generally arent high enough to keep you warm if you are not wearing a lot when it gets well below 0.

Good boots are also essential. Cold feet make things miserable fast.

Very minimal lube in the action and trigger. Any substantial amount will gum up the works. During one of my first winter range sessions in Fairbanks too much lube froze up my 700 and I had to defrost it in the car.

When it is above -10 I use a pair of convertible mittens for gloves. When it gets colder I will add a glove liner to this. Plus I will always have hand warmers in my pocket.

 

[Roddd]

Re: Extreme Cold weather gear, shooting

I think the low here today will be 65F...and I have an AW. I highly recommend moving.

 

[45.308]

Re: Extreme Cold weather gear, shooting

All my firearms but one have a carbon steel barrel, never an issue for me. 10/22 and nylon 66 ran every time I pulled the trigger expect for normal low pressure rimfire ammo. Bolt gun can become stiff. I always found, get a little heat into the firearm and keep it there worked best. Anything mechanical can cold soak, only heat will help. Sig and Wilson cold soaked and would not run. XD ran even after shot warm, laid in the snow pack to freeze, always ran.

M16s did have issues when cold soaked but so did soldiers, Marines, and sailors.

Optics, different beast. Cold soaked, if the turret or ring moves, sometimes the internals do not. Hard to get heat into an optic. Fogging is not much of an issue, I have had breath frozen all over and never really effected the glass. Electronic sights too. I have seen electronics take quite a few seconds to show life after switched on. If you are worried, just breath out the side of your mouth away from the action and scope.

Plastic stocks can and do crack when cold soaked. Good synthetic stocks can too. Wood too. I have seen my fair share of cracked stocks.

Not sure what heat rise is.

There is something special about shooting at -40. The heavy dead air just makes it raw and different. Even the report has a different sound. Never chorno at cold, the unit would not work much below zero.

I use a closed cell foam backpack pad for my shooting mat. In fact, at times I use 2. Lose snow pack can be hard to get bipod feet. I like to move the snow pack, drop a few drops of water to freeze the area into ice. Makes a good ice ledge divet with an edge on the front for bipod legs.

I like bunny boots unless I have to walk. Sorel wool felt liners inside issue muks as preferred cold boot. I rarely used gloves on the trigger. I use cheap fleece with seamgrip dots on the fingers and palm.

I never left any firearm outside to cold soak. I left the house, open the case a little in the rig to cold as I drove. We would bring nylon 66 straight out of house and start popping hoppers.

Slow everything down. Get in a hurry in the cold and something will get unhappy. I carry a thermos all the time with hot water. Nice pick me up with coffee or soup. Wrap the thermos with closed cell foam and duct tape.

Iron handwarmers cease to work when wet. Saline does not put out as much heat but is not effected by moisture. Stay hydrated and take baby aspirin or garlic pills to thin the blood.

Have fun

 

[Beef82]

Re: Extreme Cold weather gear, shooting

I shot a good deal in the cold while I was there. Your body will have more issues than your firearm most likely.
Velocity drops, and with some powders like a stone. I've also seen some ammunitions take a little longer to really go off, like very slight hangfires which they possibly were.
I never had a stock crack due to cold, wood or composite.
Quality steel and aluminum will not have issues down well past -50, recycled mystery alloy pig-metal might, I've seen it.
Optics get stiff, the greatest anti fog coatings fail when the moisture freezes instantly, keep rifles (optics) in cases to slow warming when returning indoors, rapid temperature changes can cause seals to fail.
Minimal lube, and do your best to not add additional moisture, there will be condensation/frosting most likely.
Enjoy having the range to yourself, I did, it helps aleviate any discomfort when its really cold. Also if you shoot skeet Ft Wainwright used to do -40 shoots and give a patch, kinda a cool only in AK souvenir if they still do it.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Extreme Cold weather gear, shooting

I've spent quite a bit of time (22 years) shooting in Alaska's sub temps, to -70 below.

We (Native NG BNs) did our qualifications in the winter.

Don't let the guns get warm, they'll sweat and freeze when you take them outside.

Keep bolt guns dry (no oil). Keep gas guns dry until you start shooting. Then as they warm up use LAW (light weight GI issuse oil.

You're glass wont fog over until you breath on it. If you can keep your breath off the eye piece, it shouldn't fog over. If it does you need to keep a soft cloth to wipe it.

Besides being in the Guard I was also a cop with APD. Never had a problem with my sevice revolver, even in and out of a warm car. It would sweat of course but it (Model 28 Smith) didn't care it worked.

The problem I did have is I carried a counter-sniper rifle in the trunk. It would get cold. If I got a call out, I would put the gun in the passenger part of the patrol car to warm up. It would sweat and the glass would fog over. I'd crack the bolt (didn't keep a round in the chamber) to make sure it worked. I had to keep the glass wiped clean but that wasn't a big problem.

Again I kept the gun dry. Especelly the bolt assembly. It aways worked.

I use to take that same rifle on Guard Drills calling it my sniper rifle, but mainly to know how it worked in extreme cold weather.

We jumped (parachuted) into Greely one day when it was 40 below. Later that night it dropped to -70. My rifle (a Rem 700 Varmint, 223) worked the next morning. Kept its zero in winter and summer. This was a short range gun (up to 300 yards), my zero was set at 250 yards so I could do head size targets up to 300 yards. I never seen the temp switch from summer to winter that would affect the zero enough to take me out of that zone.

The problem I had is with the Native Guard members. Contrary to popular belief, they're not known for taking care of their equipment.

We'd take a 12 man squad tent with a yukon stove to the field. The tent would get quite warm and it was a every day fight to keep them from bringing their rifles inside. They'd get warm sweat and freeze as soon as you got them outside.

I threatend them (but never gave one) with an article 15 for anyone taking his rifle into the tent. Leave the suckers out side and they will work when you want them too.

Sometimes when we qualified or did range fire we didn't have time to store the rifles outside before we went to the range.

In these cases I'd have the guys chamber a round, (they were pretty safe with loaded guns). In the short time it would take you to get from the armory to the range, they would sweat a bit but firing the first round would jar things loose so they would work (dry), again as the warmed up we'd use the LAW (cold weather oil).

I don't recall breaking any stocks, wood or plastic. The only plastic stocks we used was on the M16a1. I only used wood on my personal guns.

As to velocity change, you can get that information from BC programs. I only really cared about my LE sniper round (I used M193 in my Rem). As mentioned it wouldn't change that much to 300 yards, a bit yes, but not enough to keep me from hitting a head size target to 300 yards.

We had M1C/D sniper rifles. We just kept them dry in the winter and those old M1s didn't care, they'd shoot all the time. If the glass on the M-84s fogged over, you still had your iron sights.

The natives used a lot of 223 and 308 rifles (because they could swipe ammo from the guard), they kept their personal rifles dry and they always seemed to work. Had to, that's how they fed their families.

I'm sure I forgot a lot of stuff regarding my Alaska NG experiences, but I remember enough to keep my rifles going regardless of how cold or hot it gets.

Main thing, just keep them from sweating and freezing by taking them from warm to cold.

 

[BobM]

Re: Extreme Cold weather gear, shooting

Kraig, when I started at my PD we had Ruger Security Sixes. I was told then that they previouly had S&W 66s and had some trouble with them working when they had a range session in, from what I recall from the stories, zero degree or so weather. This would have been in the mid 80s or so. Maybe there was some other issue with the 66s of that era?

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Extreme Cold weather gear, shooting

I don't know, we had guys using 19s & 66s. I never heard of any problems with cold.

And we spent a lot of time going from a warm car to extreme cold.

The thing is, cops normally have a coat on that covers their service revolvers so you really don't have the problem that you would have with rifles.

I liked the heavy issued M-28 because it made my 357s easier to shoot. Plus it doesn't shoot loose with a heavy diet of 357s like the K frames so I don't personally have much experience withthe K frames in extreme temps.

Still have my Model 28. The dept gave it to me when I retired.
It sure raises heck with bowling pins.

 

[stefan73]

Re: Extreme Cold weather gear, shooting

I'll probably try out a dry lube for shooting.

I am going to run some trap lines this winter so the gear is mostly for that. The shooting at low temps is just to do it.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[Alaskaguide]

Re: Extreme Cold weather gear, shooting

I agree with the things Kraig said on the cold.
Keeping a bolt gun dry of lube is a very big deal in the cold. On winter hunts I take the clients bolt apart and use brake cleaner to degrease and do the same to the trigger.

Hello Kraig not sure if you remember me as it has been a long time over 20 years since I have had the privilege of shooting with you.
When did you leave Alaska?

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Extreme Cold weather gear, shooting

Its been about 20 years (just short of 19) that I left Alaska.

I retired from the NG in '92, and APD in '94, moved back to Wyoming then.

I got old, still shoot, but not much winter camping any more and my heavy packing is done on horse back.

 

[c1steve]

Re: Extreme Cold weather gear, shooting

I have Ionbond on my precision rifle, and it needs no oil. It runs dry and is slick. After application, the Ionbonded parts are soaked overnight once in oil.

Phantom Finishing did the Ionbond and Cerakote for me. I winced when I paid the bill, but now I will use it on anything important. Should work great in the cold.

 

[45.308]

Re: Extreme Cold weather gear, shooting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefan73</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll probably try out a dry lube for shooting.

I am going to run some trap lines this winter so the gear is mostly for that. The shooting at low temps is just to do it.

Thanks for the advice. </div></div>

The point is, slow everything down, do it with a purpose. Get in a hurry and kit tends to crack when abused or just normal use Vs when its warmer.

Running a line. Short snowshoes for getting in and around small tight spaces. At times, the shoes will have to come off.

Learn to ski. You can cover quite a bit a terrain very quickly and easy with skis just by simple kick slide VS snowshoes or boots. A ski like Lillehammer is one ski for everything. They are fast and track well but long. E99 is another Ak staple ski. In the cold, best to get wax based ski and go with a green wax. Or kicker skins. I prefer a short 140cm ski with skins, Fischer line and mountaineering boot bindings, Silv 500. If you can find a issue cable binding for bunny boots you can be golden too.

Carry a small metal blade avalanche shovel on your pack.

Stash lighters in every pocket with candles.

Carry a thermos filled with hot water and dry foods/drinks.

Carry a foam pad, mine is cut and folded to fit in the frame / hydro sleeve of my pack.

Dress warm but dress to vent. If you prefer coated fabrics, learn to chimney vent your body. I prefer fabrics with open weave, soft shell is the term these days or just plain open weave nylon. Schoeller Dynamic is the best soft shell fabric and Pertex is the best nylon fabric to protect from the outside yet protect the core of the body by venting. Do not buy into goretex or any fabric like it.

Insulation must perform when wet especially clothing that is used out in the weather. Mushers use synthetic filled clothing for a reason. Alpinest use it for the same reason. The list goes on.

Get something like a Integral Designs Dolomitti and Denali pants one size up. Throw them on over everything when stopped to collect all your body heat.

I protect my core with Patagonia capeline t and briefs. Over this comes Patagonia Reg fleece, a nylon wind shirt from WildThings and then primaloft jacket from WildThings. Black Diamond dynamic guide top and guide pants. Dolomitti and Denali pants. Good to about -50f.

I use cheap fleece gloves with SeamGrip dots I added. As they get wet, put them on your core and pull out another pair. About all I use on my hands to -30 or so. Get a mitten when its cold. Gloves not so good when its cold. I prefer a mitt with a removable liner and take a spare liner. Trapping get neoprene or rubber gloves.

Socks have to control moisture, use 50/50 wool / synth sock. I always carry a spare pair even leaving the house for a quick hike.

If you ever plan to sheep or goat hunt, buy a pair of Scarpa Inverno boots as your first pair of boots. Have the liner molded to your foot with Superfeet insole. Hunt, trap, ski, shoot, hike, it all with these boots. I use Sportiva Spantiks but I got them free, they are expensive but the premier cold weather mountain boot. Bunny boots are good for cold but not good for hiking and hunting on the steeps. They will get shred!

Get a small lightweight single wall mountain tent like Black Diamond. I never leave home without my Integral Designs Siltshelter.

Get good pair of ski poles, you only need to use one for support but they are magic for the body.

Interior not so much but take an avalanche course. The white dragon kills every year.

Be prepared to survive now matter how short trip or close to town. 5 Boyscouts died in a blow on a 1.5 mile hike from town. Even natives and sourdoughs get caught and die. Alaska does not discriminate.

Old school trick, learn to build a small fire under the oil pan of your rig.

 

[ykrvak]

Re: Extreme Cold weather gear, shooting

I've had very good results with ionbonding as well. If you can spare your rifle for a spell it works really well. Almost like a permanent dry lube.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Extreme Cold weather gear, shooting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Stash lighters in every pocket</div></div>

A thing about "BIC" type lighters. As mentioned carry several........BUT...always keep one or more in your inside clothing to keep them warm. Butane freezes. It don't have to be real cold for butane to freeze. Just last week while elk hunting it got down to 15 degrees. I slept in my Trailer (horse trailer w/living quarters. I had to warm up my BIC to light my first smoke, before I turned up the heater in the camper (Yeah I'm a wimp in my old age).

When I live and tramped in the Arctic, I carried a Zippo. I used White Gas (from my stove supply), Zippos w/White Gas always work, regardless of how cold it gets.

As 45.308 says, "Candles". Candles are worth their weight in gold. They can warm up a small mountain tent and they'll suck the moisture out of that same tent.

Some people like Bunny Boots, not me, I could never wear them, instead I liked the old army Mountain Boots, with extra liners. I'd change the liners every morning. At night I'd heat some rocks in my canteen cup, put them in the boots (with liners removed), stuff socks in the top to hold in the heat and they were dry come morning.

I've never really had "cold feet" problems, don't know why, but to me its never been a big deal. I do have to have DRY feet though. I like light foot gear also.

I've heard (don't know if its true or how to tell if its true) that a pound on your feet is like 7-10 lbs on your back.

Being an old infantryman, (back when infantry walked) I believe in taking care of your feet.

 

[ykrvak]

Re: Extreme Cold weather gear, shooting

You definitely need to keep bics warm. One issue I've had with zippo's (and the reason I no longer use them) is that the fuel evaporates very quickly out of them. Not being a smoker I found it would go dry and I would realize it until I needed it. It wasn't a real issue since I always have matches with me as well, but it did result in the zippo going bye bye.

Never been a fan of bunny boots either. I spend a lot of time on snowshoes in the winter so weight is a major consideration for me. I've been through MANY different makes as well as building my own out of NEOS and different liners/insoles. The last couple years I've been wearing the Baffin Doug Stoup boots. They are pretty light have the good silver foam liners like the old sorels used to have and are extremely comfortable for walking in. The only thing I don't really like is the humongous cuff that goes up over your calf. I cut back the liners so they break just above my ankles which makes the uppers less cumbersome. I still cant fit them under my bibs, but the draw cord does an amazingly good job of keeping the snow out. We had just over 160" of dry powdery snow last winter so I spent plenty of time wading around over the boot tops and never had a problem with snow getting in.

Part of living and traveling on rivers during the winter is getting wet feet. I'm pretty sure this was already mentioned, but bears repeating is ALWAYS CARRY EXTRA BOOT LINERS and DON'T buy into the idea that insulated boots without removable liners will keep you warm especially for extended periods of time. Moisture from your body IS going to condense in the boot insulation which is very difficult to thoroughly dry and takes a long time. Even if you can manage to keep your feet warm you're going to be packing around all the frozen water that's in the insulation. I can't even begin to count how many times I've gotten wet feet and either thrown plastic bags over new liners and kept rolling, or had a pair of NEOS with dry liners in them tucked away in my sled that I can just slip on and keep going.

Giving yourself that grace period provided by dry gear before you get a fire going or can get to safety is a huge deal.

 

[KelsonAK]

Re: Extreme Cold weather gear, shooting

I try not to go shooting below -20, especially with wind. Hunting is one thing - just out shooting is another. No lube, set your optics before you leave because they may not adjust once you are out, and try not to bleed. Seems that when it's f'ng cold out I tend to bleed a lot more from little boo boos, and it sucks when your beard freezes to the stock.
Everybody looves the bunny boots - with good reason - but I got to be different and have been wearing 'Muck' boots for the past 4 or 5 years. Just keep the feet warm 'cuz when the feet get cold the fingers stop working. As said before, the glove/mitteny things with liners are tits for the trigger hand.
I haven't had any problems with stainless in cold - though I have read up on it. Also haven't had any issues with stocks breaking or the like - but I imagine at -40 to -60 things can get wierd fast. I've watched paint come off a car door slammed at -60 like blue corn chips, I have managed to break every damned door handle on my ford during winter at one time or another (plastic.)
The best group I ever shot with my CZ .22 was at -20 or so on a windless day.

 

[45.308]

Re: Extreme Cold weather gear, shooting

Wet liners! Wool based liners are wool and take way too much time to dry in camp. Hot rocks and/or hot water bottles to dry them? So old school.

Foam based liners dry in a few hours inside the sleeping bag. Plus they are warm come morning, slide them on while still inside the bag, wear them around camp, inside the shells, happy dry feet. I have done multiple week trips with just one pair of liners. Always dry in the morning when placed inside the sleeping bag at night. Control the foot micro climate over the day and less moisture inside the liner to dry.

Why double plastic boots are popular for hunting. Take them off, pull out liners, wade the river, dump water out, wipe the inside dry, put liners back in, happy dry feet.

Another good reason for bunny boots. Wade through water, take them off, dump the water out, wipe dry with a paper towel or rag, put back on feet, happy dry feet. You can also freeze the water and then break it up and wipe out the ice.

The difference is, plastic boots can take a great amount of abuse that also protects the feet where as bunny boots can shred. Plus, the rigid sole of plastic boots are superior for steep terrain.

The wear of vapor barrier sock with boots can help control moisture from the feet micro climate. A simple plastic bread bag or store bought coated nylon. A bread bag can tear easily. For long term use, store bought coated nylon. Do not get them too big.

I started applying foot powder to my feet to help control moisture Had some success. Then around 85-86 I started thinking and tried under arm antiperspirant. Since it helps control under arm sweat, should work for feet sweat. Works phenomenal and I think Degree works best. I carry the sample or travel size in my pack. Apply it liberally on the feet and between toes all 4 seasons. Really cuts down on foot sweat plus, the feet do not have that rotten stench after 2 weeks of sweating inside boots.

External water inside boots is the reason I wear good gaiters that seal up around the boot. Outdoor Research Crocs. I have waded rivers wearing tight fitting gaiters and never had water leak in.

And a thing about stoves. White gas stoves have many rubber O rings that shrink in the cold. This can cause issues. Now tear one of those O rings and try tinkering with a stove and small parts at -50f. I prefer a cartridge stove with fuel canister. And yes, they do work in the cold cause I have the t shirt or parka. Carry the fuel can inside your jacket, during burning just run a Bic under the fuel can a few seconds when the stove starts to sputter. Or build a copper pipe heat exchanger for deep cold and extended use.

 

[KelsonAK]

Re: Extreme Cold weather gear, shooting

Do you have a picture of a copper heat pipe extenter for one of the stoves? I've been a white gas guy for real cold for a while - but have always thought there had to be a way to make the carts work.

 

[45.308]

Re: Extreme Cold weather gear, shooting

No pix but take a foot of 1/4 inch diameter copper plumbers pipe and smash it flat. Start at the burner, place one end of the pipe so it covers full burner in the flame, and run it and bend it down along the side of the fuel cart and then up under it and either cut it off or continue up the opposite side. Take two can cozies, remove the bottom, cut the sides into about a 1 inch strip, wrap the cozies around the fuel cart so they make a sleeve around the fuel cart, duct tape together. I now how a neoprene cozie that stretches around the fuel cart.

In the cold, keep your fuel cart in your jacket or somewhere, twist the stove together and run your exchanger, the cozie will keep it on the cart in your pack, flick your bic and the flame will heat the copper pipe and sink the heat down to the fuel cart keeping it warm so the fuel will vaporize and burn, it actually gives a slightly hotter output. Push pull effect. The temp and heat of the fuel cart determine how much contact the pipe requires on the cart to keep it warm but not too hot. The cozie helps secure the exchanger to the fuel cart contacting at just that point or more contact depending on how cold.

You do not really need to keep the fuel cart in your jacket if you flick the Bic and run the flame on the bottom of the cart for a few seconds before lighting the stove. We had one trip that we did just this at temps around -30f. This will put some heat so the fuel will vaporize. This is how I mostly do it now, just run the Bic on the bottom.

I have run this set up to =50 or so with no issues. I have had issues with white gas stove and seals in the cold. I can have hot in my belly by the time white gas stoves are put together, primed, wait for the flame to adjust for opt heat and then cook.
Cart stove is instant max heat output. Plus cart stove a much safer stove to run inside a tent.

I have found MSR IsoPro fuel to be have the most constant heat out put over the life of the fuel with best operation in the cold. Primus is also a good fuel cart.

 

[tmckay2]

Re: Extreme Cold weather gear, shooting

i don't know this from experience or anything but i would be a bit worred about synthetic stocks cracking under that kind of cold when coupled with the heat from the barrel. those are pretty extreme differences, but i would be more worried about this with say an aics which seems to have a more plastic synthetic versus a manners or something.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefan73</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now that I am living in the interior of Alaska I get to experience some extremes.
What recommendations do you have for extreme cold weather?

I am not talking about you warm 20F!!! I am talking -20F to -50F!!
Tuesday 23 Oct. we had -15F.

Recommendations for firearms, gear?
How do synthetic stocks handle the cold?
Stainless steel, how does it handle the extreme cold?
Optics, issues? Heat rise?
Loss of velocity? </div></div>

 

[Alaskaguide]

Re: Extreme Cold weather gear, shooting

Used a m1A with gi fiberglass stock with no prolbems winter wolf hunting.
My 375 has a brown and never had an issue but never shot it below 0
Had a styer SSG The stock was ok but broke 2 firing pins shooting in the winter. Gave up on rifle after that.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Re: Extreme Cold weather gear, shooting

And get yourself a Sako. Those Finns know something about building rifles for the cold weather.

I've shot here in the NE in as low as -30. No problems. But the POI definitely shifts down at lower temperatures. Very slightly with each 10 degree drop... but perceptible in big temperature swings.

Probably more ammo than rifle, since ammunition left in the sun shows slight rise in hot weather.

That's what a databook is for. Given the seasonal temp swings in Alaska (probably more than we experience, even on the Canadian border), your best bet for accuracy is to maintain your databook well and watch for changes. W. temperature.

For gear, etc... there are folks more knowledgable than I. KraigWY is definitely one of them and I enjoyed reading his advice above. Learned some good stuff. For up here, our LE winter gear is just a set of overwhites on our regular cold-weather gear.

Enjoy Alaska! 'Stan to AK is a big change. Have a blast on the frontier!

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[stefan73]

Re: Extreme Cold weather gear, shooting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 45.308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wet liners! Wool based liners are wool and take way too much time to dry in camp. Hot rocks and/or hot water bottles to dry them? So old school.

Foam based liners dry in a few hours inside the sleeping bag. Plus they are warm come morning, slide them on while still inside the bag, wear them around camp, inside the shells, happy dry feet. I have done multiple week trips with just one pair of liners. Always dry in the morning when placed inside the sleeping bag at night. Control the foot micro climate over the day and less moisture inside the liner to dry.

Why double plastic boots are popular for hunting. Take them off, pull out liners, wade the river, dump water out, wipe the inside dry, put liners back in, happy dry feet.

Another good reason for bunny boots. Wade through water, take them off, dump the water out, wipe dry with a paper towel or rag, put back on feet, happy dry feet. You can also freeze the water and then break it up and wipe out the ice.

The difference is, plastic boots can take a great amount of abuse that also protects the feet where as bunny boots can shred. Plus, the rigid sole of plastic boots are superior for steep terrain.

The wear of vapor barrier sock with boots can help control moisture from the feet micro climate. A simple plastic bread bag or store bought coated nylon. A bread bag can tear easily. For long term use, store bought coated nylon. Do not get them too big.

I started applying foot powder to my feet to help control moisture Had some success. Then around 85-86 I started thinking and tried under arm antiperspirant. Since it helps control under arm sweat, should work for feet sweat. Works phenomenal and I think Degree works best. I carry the sample or travel size in my pack. Apply it liberally on the feet and between toes all 4 seasons. Really cuts down on foot sweat plus, the feet do not have that rotten stench after 2 weeks of sweating inside boots.

External water inside boots is the reason I wear good gaiters that seal up around the boot. Outdoor Research Crocs. I have waded rivers wearing tight fitting gaiters and never had water leak in.

And a thing about stoves. White gas stoves have many rubber O rings that shrink in the cold. This can cause issues. Now tear one of those O rings and try tinkering with a stove and small parts at -50f. I prefer a cartridge stove with fuel canister. And yes, they do work in the cold cause I have the t shirt or parka. Carry the fuel can inside your jacket, during burning just run a Bic under the fuel can a few seconds when the stove starts to sputter. Or build a copper pipe heat exchanger for deep cold and extended use. </div></div>
I have built stoves using soda cans and Heat.

 

[stefan73]

Re: Extreme Cold weather gear, shooting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sirhrmechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And get yourself a Sako. Those Finns know something about building rifles for the cold weather.

I've shot here in the NE in as low as -30. No problems. But the POI definitely shifts down at lower temperatures. Very slightly with each 10 degree drop... but perceptible in big temperature swings.

Probably more ammo than rifle, since ammunition left in the sun shows slight rise in hot weather.

That's what a databook is for. Given the seasonal temp swings in Alaska (probably more than we experience, even on the Canadian border), your best bet for accuracy is to maintain your databook well and watch for changes. W. temperature.

For gear, etc... there are folks more knowledgable than I. KraigWY is definitely one of them and I enjoyed reading his advice above. Learned some good stuff. For up here, our LE winter gear is just a set of overwhites on our regular cold-weather gear.

Enjoy Alaska! 'Stan to AK is a big change. Have a blast on the frontier!

Cheers,

Sirhr </div></div>
I have a Sako and am thinking about getting another TRG. I am more worried about the optics than the rifle (good excuse to get a KRG folder).

 

[KelsonAK]

Re: Extreme Cold weather gear, shooting

I use the soda can stoves in the summer when I am traveling lite. I haven't given them a try in the negative cold. I usually don't have a need to travel that lite in the winter so have never had one along. May need to throw one in the bag and give it a try this year.

 

[skinney_7]

Re: Extreme Cold weather gear, shooting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefan73</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I am not talking about you warm 20F!!! I am talking -20F to -50F!!
Tuesday 23 Oct. we had -15F.
</div></div>

thats getting cold brother...
I've been on a few hunts in weather that was -20 with no wind... introduce the wind, and you might end up getting yourself in trouble... Last year we made a few sets and the kestrel said -19 (NO WIND) when it's that cold nothing likes to work, especially HD video cameras... on my bolt guns I use a spray on dry lube that doesn't get thick with temp fluctuations... if your just engaging steel, no biggie, but if your out for the kill, be sure you got the equipment up to par.

 

[oinco]

Re: Extreme Cold weather gear, shooting

Gentlemen i am really enjoying this thread! Really makes me long to be living back in the Interior again. And as I get older I realize how ignorant I was in some of the things I did when I lived there. It is easy to get complacent when you start to get used to the cold, fortunately I was lucky.

Coldest I have experienced there was -82*F ambient and calm to 3mph. Geared up and went outside to play- everything does some weird stuff when cold soaked like that. Would make a cool MythBusters episode.

I didn't have any problems with equipment, but I shot a lot and found what ammo worked in the cold. (mostly .22lr). I learned the hard way several times to not breathe outside of my facemask when getting on the rifle. Missed a couple of opportunities on some stunning caribou with a fogged scope.
Biggest struggle I have is with my feet and hands- frostbitten them so many times they are pretty picky. I am on my second pair of Scarpa Invernos, custom liners are worth every penny. Insulated super gaiters are worth it too. European sized gloves fit better for me, hard to find unless you are at a very well versed and stocked mountaineering shop. I use the iron handwarmers and the liquid fuel too. Never have had luck with the battery powered stuff-
I eat lots of fat when I am out in the real cold, and proteins sparingly and that seems to help.

 

[Guerrilla Monsoon]

Re: Extreme Cold weather gear, shooting

Every so often I like to do a Simo Hayha day: iron sights only and pack my mouth with snow.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 45.308</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefan73</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll probably try out a dry lube for shooting.

I am going to run some trap lines this winter so the gear is mostly for that. The shooting at low temps is just to do it.

Thanks for the advice. </div></div>

The point is, slow everything down, do it with a purpose. Get in a hurry and kit tends to crack when abused or just normal use Vs when its warmer.

Running a line. Short snowshoes for getting in and around small tight spaces. At times, the shoes will have to come off.

Learn to ski. You can cover quite a bit a terrain very quickly and easy with skis just by simple kick slide VS snowshoes or boots. A ski like Lillehammer is one ski for everything. They are fast and track well but long. E99 is another Ak staple ski. In the cold, best to get wax based ski and go with a green wax. Or kicker skins. I prefer a short 140cm ski with skins, Fischer line and mountaineering boot bindings, Silv 500. If you can find a issue cable binding for bunny boots you can be golden too.

Carry a small metal blade avalanche shovel on your pack.

Stash lighters in every pocket with candles.

Carry a thermos filled with hot water and dry foods/drinks.

Carry a foam pad, mine is cut and folded to fit in the frame / hydro sleeve of my pack.

Dress warm but dress to vent. If you prefer coated fabrics, learn to chimney vent your body. I prefer fabrics with open weave, soft shell is the term these days or just plain open weave nylon. Schoeller Dynamic is the best soft shell fabric and Pertex is the best nylon fabric to protect from the outside yet protect the core of the body by venting. Do not buy into goretex or any fabric like it.

Insulation must perform when wet especially clothing that is used out in the weather. Mushers use synthetic filled clothing for a reason. Alpinest use it for the same reason. The list goes on.

Get something like a Integral Designs Dolomitti and Denali pants one size up. Throw them on over everything when stopped to collect all your body heat.

I protect my core with Patagonia capeline t and briefs. Over this comes Patagonia Reg fleece, a nylon wind shirt from WildThings and then primaloft jacket from WildThings. Black Diamond dynamic guide top and guide pants. Dolomitti and Denali pants. Good to about -50f.

I use cheap fleece gloves with SeamGrip dots I added. As they get wet, put them on your core and pull out another pair. About all I use on my hands to -30 or so. Get a mitten when its cold. Gloves not so good when its cold. I prefer a mitt with a removable liner and take a spare liner. Trapping get neoprene or rubber gloves.

Socks have to control moisture, use 50/50 wool / synth sock. I always carry a spare pair even leaving the house for a quick hike.

If you ever plan to sheep or goat hunt, buy a pair of Scarpa Inverno boots as your first pair of boots. Have the liner molded to your foot with Superfeet insole. Hunt, trap, ski, shoot, hike, it all with these boots. I use Sportiva Spantiks but I got them free, they are expensive but the premier cold weather mountain boot. Bunny boots are good for cold but not good for hiking and hunting on the steeps. They will get shred!

Get a small lightweight single wall mountain tent like Black Diamond. I never leave home without my Integral Designs Siltshelter.

Get good pair of ski poles, you only need to use one for support but they are magic for the body.

Interior not so much but take an avalanche course. The white dragon kills every year.

Be prepared to survive now matter how short trip or close to town. 5 Boyscouts died in a blow on a 1.5 mile hike from town. Even natives and sourdoughs get caught and die. Alaska does not discriminate.

Old school trick, learn to build a small fire under the oil pan of your rig. </div></div>

Every piece of advice in this post is absolutely spot-on. Especially the mittens with two pair of liners (frost bit my fingers in Yellowstone decades ago) and the avalanche training (even if you're not on a steep slope you can still get smoked by a slide in the runout zone).