Rifle Scopes Eyes vs Ocular (Ilya?)

[kai24]

Old guy here (68). Went to the ophthalmologist today for my annual. After the usual poking and prodding, I got my new Rx. Actually was better than last time. She said that can happen as you get older (?). Afterwards we had a discussion about age related vision issues. One of my main concerns was diminishing vision at twilight and in the dark (driving). She told me that as we get older the iris (?) does not open as much as when we are young. Approx. 7+ mm young and diminishing to 3 to 4mm as we age. OK, life sometimes sucks but if you are lucky enough you will get to this point - If you can dodge jealous wives/husbands/Mack trucks and the occasional lightning bolt you might make it I digress.

I started thinking about shooting. If my iris will only open 4mm, why do I need an ocular lens that is 8mm? Is it wasted light energy so to speak? Do I need to spend the extra money for a 40 oz. scope with a 56mm objective lens when a sometimes cheaper 20 oz. scope with a 42mm lens is all that my eye can accommodate (use)?

Just rambling here, but it's something we all will have to face. I did some searches and nothing jumped out at me, so what say you? What am I missing?

Thanks in advance!

 

[koshkin]

That's not a three sentence explanation if I want to do it right.

I'll do a video on that. Please ping me if it is not up in a few days.

Ilya

 

[elmerdeer]

tag

 

[kai24]

That's not a three sentence explanation if I want to do it right.

I'll do a video on that. Please ping me if it is not up in a few days.

Ilya

Thank you sir!

 

[Glassaholic]

I will be curious to see ILya's video on this. I too am getting older (50) and have experienced eye issues, mostly night vision issues as well as presbyopia. One thing I would point out is that a scopes optical formula is not only about exit pupil, but also the forgiveness of the eyebox and I believe I understand that relationship I'd like to sit in on ILya's class to hear how the professor explains it

 

[MarinePMI]

I will be curious to see ILya's video on this. I too am getting older (50) and have experienced eye issues, mostly night vision issues as well as presbyopia. One thing I would point out is that a scopes optical formula is not only about exit pupil, but also the forgiveness of the eyebox and I believe I understand that relationship I'd like to sit in on ILya's class to hear how the professor explains it

You old fart...oh wait...that means I'm one too...never mind....

 

[Quarter Horse]

Kai, older guy here (72). I look forward to Ilya's video. My comments are anecdotal but they may also be instructive.

Early this year I bought a T1X. The plan was to scope it with a Weaver tactical 3-15X50. I had two. I was not able to get a clear image with either at 50 yds. I switched to a SS 5-20. There was improvement but not enough to be able to see the 1" dot clearly and definitely no luck in focusing on the 1/4" diamond in the center. I finally went to a PMII and got enough clarity that the dot was better but the diamond would be there a limited amount of time.

I had been dealing with reduced night vision for a number of years and it had gotten to point that I avoided night driving as much as possible. When I went to the optometrist I asked about cataract surgery. He gave me a referral to ophthalmology. I had cataract surgery on both eyes. I had astigmatism in both eyes that were not correctable with Toric lenses. I can see driving at night. My shooting related vision problems are corrected to a significant degree. I no longer need glasses for reading. My far vision is corrected with glasses and the detail actually makes my head hurt. If you are over fifty, have been told you have the beginnings of cataracts or are having night vision issues see an ophthalmologist.

If your vision care is through VA PM me.

 

[Northernjets]

@koshkin has the video up now:

 

[earthtrekker1775]

@koshkin has the video up now:

Thoroughly informative explanation, thank you Ilya. I always enjoy your posts as I walk away with new knowledge or perspective.

 

[Macdaddy]

So the take away, (as I have interpreted the excellent video), is that the more information your eyes have available to them to send to your brain, the more your brain has available to interpret. and utilize. That said, especially as your eyes age, if anything, you should be looking to upgrade your optics vice backing off. Ilya, did I get this right?

 

[pmclaine]

@koshkin has the video up now:

Great video.

Excellent educational value.

The brain is amazing. The eye/brain machine is excellent argument for a deity, somewhat inexplainable by evolution or engineering...

Does the Human Eye Prove that God Exists? – The Gray Man Writes

www.graymanwrites.com

While watching the video, the calming voice, the quite tones, the clarity of instruction did anyone start to feel this.......

 

[Hellbender]

Excellent video Ilya!!
If you get the time, I would love to have an explanation of why some scopes have fairly accurate, consistent (ie, 100 yards marked on dial is close to 100, not 400 one day and 75 the next) parallax adjustment (like S&B) and others are horrible (like NF).

Thanks again!

 

[koshkin]

Excellent video Ilya!!
If you get the time, I would love to have an explanation of why some scopes have fairly accurate, consistent (ie, 100 yards marked on dial is close to 100, not 400 one day and 75 the next) parallax adjustment (like S&B) and others are horrible (like NF).

Thanks again!

Can you give me a little more detail on what exactly you are seeing with parallax setting on different scopes?

ILya

 

[koshkin]

So the take away, (as I have interpreted the excellent video), is that the more information your eyes have available to them to send to your brain, the more your brain has available to interpret. and utilize. That said, especially as your eyes age, if anything, you should be looking to upgrade your optics vice backing off. Ilya, did I get this right?

Generally, yes. There is a limit to how much bigger exit pupil needs to be compared to eye pupil, but it is empirical and different for different people.

As you get older, your ability to see contrast diminishes, so you should be looking at scopes that render contrast well, which is especially important in low light.

ILya

 

[918v]

Can you give me a little more detail on what exactly you are seeing with parallax setting on different scopes?

ILya

What I have seen is that my German scopes will be parallax free at the same knob setting from day to day, week to week, month to month, while NF will need the parallax adjusted out a lot. For example, with the target 100 yards away, sometimes it will be parallax free at the 75 yard setting, other times at the 90 yard setting, sometimes over the 100 yard knob setting.

 

[Hellbender]

Can you give me a little more detail on what exactly you are seeing with parallax setting on different scopes?

ILya

My backyard range has fixed steel from 100-400 yards and paper stands at 50, 100, 200 and 400, so I am shooting in fairly fixed conditions, only big difference may be temp and sun.

On my PMII's the yardage marks on the parallax knob are always very close to actual range (always within 10-25 yards, 100 yards and under is usually perfect on the dial).

I have an ATACR 7-35 and an NX8 4-32 (NX8 is not marked yardage so I made a couple marks for 50, 100 and 400 yards one day).
One day you go out and ATACR may show 700 yards on the dial at 200 actual and the next day may be 150 on the dial.
The NX8 I actually sent back to NF it was so different at even 50 yards on different days, as much as 1/2 full turn on the dial...at 50 yards! They said all was good...
Here is another thread on this common gripe with the NF's...

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/nf-atacr-parallax.6896036/

I also have a March 5-40x56 and it seems pretty consistant (ie same settings on different days) BUT the yardage marks are just way off, but I can live with that, I just make a new tape to go over the marks.

 

[koshkin]

What I have seen is that my German scopes will be parallax free at the same knob setting from day to day, week to week, month to month, while NF will need the parallax adjusted out a lot. For example, with the target 100 yards away, sometimes it will be parallax free at the 75 yard setting, other times at the 90 yard setting, sometimes over the 100 yard knob setting.

Assuming no play in mechanical linkages, two things can cause that: thermal instability (where at different temperatures parallax setting will be different), incorrect eyepiece setting (that makes your eyes fatigued and depending on fatigue level, parallax will vary).

ILya

 

[DownhillFromHere]

Excellent, informative video. For those who are affected by diminishing night vision - I was definitely hit hard by this at roughly age 60. The cause was cataracts, not diminished iris function. The part of the lens affected was more toward the periphery, so, during daylight when the iris was smaller, I could see ok. But after dark, with the iris opening very wide, I couldn't clearly read road signs until I was way too close.

Cataract surgery fixed both my significant nearsightedness and astigmatism. On good days, I can read almost all of the 20/15 line on eye charts - but I can't see doodly squat up close without readers (I elected to have optimal distance vision in both eyes). The biggest impediment is floaters caused by posterior vitreous separation.

That's not to say my night vision isn't deteriorating due to iris function. This thread has provided clues about that. But, circling back around, if you're having night vision problems not so noticeable during the day, check into whether cataracts could be the cause.

Many thanks to @koshkin for the video; indeed, for all the informative posts.

 

[koshkin]

My backyard range has fixed steel from 100-400 yards and paper stands at 50, 100, 200 and 400, so I am shooting in fairly fixed conditions, only big difference may be temp and sun.

On my PMII's the yardage marks on the parallax knob are always very close to actual range (always within 10-25 yards, 100 yards and under is usually perfect on the dial).

I have an ATACR 7-35 and an NX8 4-32 (NX8 is not marked yardage so I made a couple marks for 50, 100 and 400 yards one day).
One day you go out and ATACR may show 700 yards on the dial at 200 actual and the next day may be 150 on the dial.
The NX8 I actually sent back to NF it was so different at even 50 yards on different days, as much as 1/2 full turn on the dial...at 50 yards! They said all was good...
Here is another thread on this common gripe with the NF's...

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/nf-atacr-parallax.6896036/

I also have a March 5-40x56 and it seems pretty consistant (ie same settings on different days) BUT the yardage marks are just way off, but I can live with that, I just make a new tape to go over the marks.

See my post above.

It has been a little while since I did a thorough test of a Nightforce scope and that was the ATACR 4-16x42. It did not exhibit any weird parallax issues.

I looked at 2.5-20x50 NX8 somewhat carefully and it had finicky parallax, but I did not try to fully characterize it. I did not have the scope long enough to really run it through temperatures.

ILya

 

[Hellbender]

See my post above.

It has been a little while since I did a thorough test of a Nightforce scope and that was the ATACR 4-16x42. It did not exhibit any weird parallax issues.

I looked at 2.5-20x50 NX8 somewhat carefully and it had finicky parallax, but I did not try to fully characterize it. I did not have the scope long enough to really run it through temperatures.

ILya

Thank you.
I don't remember this problem on any of my older NXS's, which I no longer have.

When I was shooting PRS matches heavily (w/PM II's), I always just set the yardage to a mid range on the course and shot, can't do that now with a NF, as you have no reference on the dial that is close.

 

[koshkin]

Thank you.
I don't remember this problem on any of my older NXS's, which I no longer have.

When I was shooting PRS matches heavily (w/PM II's), I always just set the yardage to a mid range on the course and shot, can't do that now with a NF, as you have no reference on the dial that is close.

I havn't been looking at Nightforce scopes very much lately, so I can't really help you. NXS scopes very unexceptional optically, but all the mechanical stuff was really well worked out.

ATACR scopes are generally quite good in terms of image quality, but there definitely more finicky to set up than NXS, although the 4-16x42 is definitely my favourite of the ATACR scopes.

I would start by spending some quality time on having the eyepiece adjusted. If you are still having problems after that, maybe it is fate and you should just get a Tangent Theta and be done with it.

ILya

 

[kai24]

@koshkin has the video up now:

Ilya-
Since I'm the guy that started all this - I thank you for all on the forum and the large number of folks, off line with positive comments.
This was an excellent synthesis of a complex issue that is now understandable to the average guy like me. Apparently I'm not the only one with these and other age related shooting issues (No, ED doesn't count). I've gotten a number of replies that talk about the cataract replacement process. I haven't had it yet but probably next year. Friends reinforce all that's been written about clarity and help with focus, but the surgery does not fix the issue of reduced pupil dilatation (?). I now appreciate what I think you are saying about the "eye box" and the brains ability to correlate all the input "stuff" and produce a minds eye view of the target.

Given all that, I have two questions for you:
- .308, medium range (800m) application - ATACR 4x16 -42 or 50?
-Are you any relation to Zoltar?

Thanks for your help!

 

[koshkin]

Ilya-
Since I'm the guy that started all this - I thank you for all on the forum and the large number of folks, off line with positive comments.
This was an excellent synthesis of a complex issue that is now understandable to the average guy like me. Apparently I'm not the only one with these and other age related shooting issues (No, ED doesn't count). I've gotten a number of replies that talk about the cataract replacement process. I haven't had it yet but probably next year. Friends reinforce all that's been written about clarity and help with focus, but the surgery does not fix the issue of reduced pupil dilatation (?). I now appreciate what I think you are saying about the "eye box" and the brains ability to correlate all the input "stuff" and produce a minds eye view of the target.

Given all that, I have two questions for you:
- .308, medium range (800m) application - ATACR 4x16 -42 or 50?
-Are you any relation to Zoltar?

Thanks for your help!

You are welcome.

I am guessing Zoltar is some sort of an obscure cultural reference that I am not familiar with, so you'll have to help me out with this one.

As far as 308 out to 800 yards goes, a lot of scopes will do that for you. Between the two ATACRs, I would likely go with the smaller 42mm model, although admittedly I have had more time with that one. If you want a 50mm objective, just bite the bullet and get a Tangent Theta TT315M.

ILya

 

[Hellbender]

I havn't been looking at Nightforce scopes very much lately, so I can't really help you. NXS scopes very unexceptional optically, but all the mechanical stuff was really well worked out.

ATACR scopes are generally quite good in terms of image quality, but there definitely more finicky to set up than NXS, although the 4-16x42 is definitely my favourite of the ATACR scopes.

I would start by spending some quality time on having the eyepiece adjusted. If you are still having problems after that, maybe it is fate and you should just get a Tangent Theta and be done with it.

ILya

If TT had a 25 (or better 10 yard) minimum parallax and a 30+ top end power, i would own several, but about all I shoot anymore are nice .22's out to 400 yards and 3 gun stuff out to 6-800 (and very few of those past 300 in 3 gun).

I'm anxiously waiting on the new March scope. Hopefully it doesn't have a cluttered reticle...I like the FML-1 if it was refined a bit. No need for a big xmas tree for a .22, it's a LOT more important to see splash than to have a bunch of crap below the reticle.

 

[koshkin]

If TT had a 25 (or better 10 yard) minimum parallax and a 30+ top end power, i would own several, but about all I shoot anymore are nice .22's out to 400 yards and 3 gun stuff out to 6-800 (and very few of those past 300 in 3 gun).
I'm anxiously waiting on the new March scope.

In that case, either March 3-24x52 or the upcoming 4.5-28x52. The 3-24x52 will still probably be lighter, but both scope will focus down to 10 yards or so, I think. 3-24x52 definitely and the new scope probably. We will know soon enough.

ILya