F/L Sizing Reveal a Bad Chamber Job?

[.50 Cal Cow]

Rifle is a fairly new 308Win with custom rock barrel chamber by reputable vendor on the forums. While doing some f/l resizing for the first time on twice fired lapua brass i ran into some issues where the brass wouldn't feed smoothly in the die and wanted to stick despite having copious amounts of imperial sizing wax.

Thinking it may just be a bad die (redding type s comp die) I pulled out a plain jane redding f/l sizing die i had lying around but continued to experience the same issue. While investigating further I observed that when I ran my thumb along the case body my nail would lightly clip about half way up the case which is about where most of the resistence was coming from. So my questions are now the following.

1. If the rifle seems to reliably feed and shoot with no apparent pressure problems does this pose any safety related concerns from the rifle stand point? Used several types of ammo and reloads through the thing to this point and haven't observed any common indicators. All rounds extract fine after fired.

2. Rather than trashing my press and dies by brute forcing through the resizing. Is this something that sending a few of these pieces of brass of to a custom die maker would be able to resolve? Is there any safety related concerns with using this brass? I ran a dental pick along the inside of several of these pieces of brass and the it slid smoothly in and out with no ridges of signs of thinning.

After taking dimensions using an outside micrometer I came up with the following measurements right above the rim.

New Brass 0.4690"
Twice Fired 0.4740"
After Resized 0.4715

 

[.50 Cal Cow]

Picture of brass after resizing.

 

[witchhunter]

Have your gunsmith clean up the chamber. It should be quick and easy. Have it throated to the bullet you like while he has it. It will be cheaper than a custom die, and will solve your problem.

 

[.50 Cal Cow]

F/L Sizing Reveal a Bad Chamber Job?

Have your gunsmith clean up the chamber. It should be quick and easy. Have it throated to the bullet you like while he has it. It will be cheaper than a custom die, and will solve your problem.

Would a gunsmith have to recut the chamber entail? It appears from what I'm experiencing that the problem is the chamber as been cut a little too loose at the bottom half allowing the cases to expand beyond an easy fit for the dies.

I'd actually have to send it to another smith as I'm not sure what happened to this shop but they seem like they are having some internal affairs preventing them from operating.

Any solution to resizing the remaining 150 cases that were fired? I've never experienced this much difficulty resizing over all the cartridges I've sized. Especially when using the imperial wax.

 

[Glockin' Bob]

I think I would thoroughly clean my FL die with solvent then polish the die with some JB Bore compound. A patch wrapped around a pistol bore brush chucked into a drill works pretty well for this. Clean the die really well after doing this to get all the JB out. Then I'd try sizing again, perhaps with LESS wax. I'm wondering if perhaps too much wax is causing the ring. I don't use the wax so I don't know if it causes dents in the brass the way too much of the liquid but it may be the wax giving you that ring.

 

[the once-ler]

Does the line appear on fresh brass after 1 firing or only after it's sized? A chamber that is cut without dialing in the indicators VERY accurately results in a wallowed out chamber it would likely blow the brass out to an abnormally large shape especially in the lower half of the case which may be what is happening.

 

[Glockin' Bob]

I don't think the chamber is waller'd out given the measurements he gave in his post. His measurements are only showing 25 ten thousanths reduction after sizing above the base and that doesn't seem extraordinary.

 

[.50 Cal Cow]

As for cleaning the dies. I can try polishing them but they were cleaned thoroughly the same way I've done with my other dies that I haven't had issues with. As for the wax I usually don't have to use hardly any and only added more on afterwards.

The line seen on the brass starts at the same spot that my nail light catches running up all the brass. It only shows on the fired brass. If it's resulting from a wallowed chamber job would that show on a concentricity gauge?

I'm no gun smith but it really appears as if some how the bottom half was reamed out a little large. I see that the books lists a 0.420" spec and my brass is about 0.004" over.

 

[Glockin' Bob]

Is the line visible on once fired brass?

 

[Lumpy Grits]

Stop use'n wax and get some Dillon spray lube.
LG

 

[the once-ler]

I asked the same thing ^^. I would also add to that is it seen on once fired brass of different make or from different mfr. it could be the brass itself

 

[ZombieMonkey]

I'm with those wanting to know if the line is there in fired state prior to resizing.

 

[.50 Cal Cow]

F/L Sizing Reveal a Bad Chamber Job?

Just "polished" the dies to rule that out. And had no effect.

To appease the wax haters (just kidding) I pulled out the rcbs case lube and pad I had laying around and gave it a go. It wasn't as clean and easy as the wax is with my other calibers but the cases did resize. I was very surprised this was part of the problem as the wax stuff works incredibly well on everything else I load for. I guess I don't know everything and have a new learning curve for this one. Also guess it's time to experiment with another couple types to see if I can find something even better. Is the Dillon spray anything like te hornady? After using the hornady I'm very hesitant to try spray again as it worked horribly for me.

As for the lines in the cases. The lines are there prior to resizing. They are very faint and become more pronounced after sizing. I just checked some once fired brass from different lot of lapua and once fired Federal brass. Here's a picture of the federal brass fired and unworked. You can see the lines. Not sure what this means (rough chamber that needs polishing?

Thanks all for yours input.

 

[shoot4fun]

Take a piece of FL sized brass, add a couple of pieces of scotch tape to the back and see if the bolt will close. Better yet, find someone with a set of 308 Go-No Go Gauges and check out your headspace. I am suspecting a headspace problem.

 

[.50 Cal Cow]

Take a piece of FL sized brass, add a couple of pieces of scotch tape to the back and see if the bolt will close. Better yet, find someone with a set of 308 Go-No Go Gauges and check out your headspace. I am suspecting a headspace problem.

Thanks. I'll see if I can find someone with a set of gauges to determine for sure.

It wouldn't surprise me if there's something more. My gut is telling me the brass should be sizing a lot easier than it is regardless of what I'm using. Even getting it done on the few pieces with the rcbs lube it wasn't pretty and I'm not afraid of a little effort.

 

[shoot4fun]

What I see is a ring in the area I most associate with where case separation occurs either from incorrect sizing to prevent overworking brass or from a chamber that is out of spec. While it could be a reamer mark it is very uniform and I don't think that is the likely culprit. Are the three pieces of brass in you last pic from factory rounds or reloads? What is your load? Did you notice primer pockets loose in an unusually short number of firings? You may be well over pressure as another cause of what you see.

 

[.50 Cal Cow]

The three pieces are actually from a factory box of Federal GMM with the 168smk's. Don't recall any ejector marks on the Federal factory loads.

With the hand loads they varied. I worked both 168's and 178's up with varget. I got up to 44.3gr and noticed some light ejector marks and swipes. Weird part was that was no real primer cratering or flattening. I've been mainly shooting the 168's with 43.2gr varget and no real signs. However, I did get a bunch of the BR2 that FTF that I thought was just a bad lot of primers since it didn't do the same with federal primers. Now that has me wondering. Really more you mention it sounds like I just really need to find a set of headspace gauges. Or have a gunsmith look at it.

 

[Lumpy Grits]

What chamber spec did you have it cut to?
Most case head seps are farther down towards the CH. Say about half way down from your 'ring' mark in the pics.
Take a fired case from your rifle, trim and resize to only bump the shoulder back .002-.003 at most.
Size you cases to fit your chamber and use a case gauge to confirm sizing.
LG

 

[ZombieMonkey]

Either use a gauge to check / measure for any thinning in that area or sacrifice a few cases and carefully cut them lengthwise to see if there is any thinning there. It could be the result of some imperfection in the chamber or you could have a more serious problem brewing. Brass that has been once fired in this rifle only from new having those rings is a bit concerning to me, that's not something I am accustomed to seeing unless you've got some issues going on with your sizing or old brass thinning.

 

[.50 Cal Cow]

F/L Sizing Reveal a Bad Chamber Job?

WhatWhat chamber spec did you have it cut to?

Don't know. I didn't intend to have a new barrel. When I asked them to thread my factory barrel something got "screwed up". So they said they were putting a custom barrel with a match spec chamber to make up for it. Shit happens and they said they would take care of it so I didn't get too torqued. Judging by the in letting and overall fit and finish on the rest and their reputation I don't think it's cause they didn't know what they are doing. But the did nickname this project the "Tikka from hell" so I'm thinking there's more at play I might not have been told.

WhatMost case head seps are farther down towards the CH. Say about half way down from your 'ring' mark in the pics.

Agreed it looks weird which is why the thread.

WhatTake a fired case from your rifle, trim and resize to only bump the shoulder back .002-.003 at most. Size you cases to fit your chamber and use a case gauge to confirm sizing.

I have gauges and use them. The issue is that the brass seems to have grown larger then it should and no longer resizes the way it should. If it were this simple there would be no thread.

I think at this point it just needs to be taken to someone more advanced to diagnose. Since some have confirmed that there may be multiple indications it might not just be my resizing procedure. Thanks to all for the advice.

 

[Lumpy Grits]

You need to have a chamber cast done before you run any more rnds through it.
How to Do a Gun Chamber Cast: Excerpt from GunTech Video Magazine #48 - YouTube
Have you contacted this 'smith' that did the work and presented your issues to him?
IF the chamber is TU--
That so-called 'smith' did you no favors, and IMO owes you some $$$ for his screw ups.
Tell us your load--
LG

 

[samnev]

It sure looks like the chamber has problems. Since the brass came out with those marks and you tried 2 different dies with the same results. I also think the original smith owes you some $$$ or is responsible to fix the problem.

 

[.50 Cal Cow]

It sure looks like the chamber has problems. Since the brass came out with those marks and you tried 2 different dies with the same results. I also think the original smith owes you some $$$ or is responsible to fix the problem.

Thanks I'd like to agree. Unfortunately I am unsure what's happened with this shop as I received an email regarding some internal issues and now all their numbers have been apparently disconnected. They were a very reputable builder here and all the other work (dbm in letting, bedding and fit and finish) came out top notch minus this stupid issue regarding the chamber. Unfortunately I don't really know how to contact them at this point nor would even feel comfortable sending it back there with the flux they seem to be in. So it seems like I'm just up shits on this one creek unless I can get in contact and some compensation to send it elsewhere

There is a gunsmith here local that I've used before and has a solid barrel work reputation that I'm hoping will be able to look at it and resolve the issue. Will take it there as soon as I get some time.

 

[shoot4fun]

I would give Mark Gordon at Short Action CUstoms a call and discuss it all with him. He is a great guy, has a stellar reputation and does great work. Besides, I think he is solid and not going to have his phone disconnected anytime soon.

 

[jsthntn247]

The ring on the brass is from a ring in the chamber that was missed when cutting the chamber. You can take a close hanger, bend it and run the end down the chamber wall and feel the ring. It needs polishing. Take it back to the smith, you don't want to polish a chamber too fine because it will increase bolt thrust. Most use a dowel smaller than chamber size, or their hand and 320 grit sand paper.

 

[Lumpy Grits]

Here's a guy that can build a good 'stick'.
He's built 2 for me.
One man shop, and he knows how to do it all.
Goes by Hateca on the forum.
R&D Precision | Awesome Gunsmithing Services
LG

 

[.50 Cal Cow]

Thanks all for the recommendations and references. If the original shop that did this jobby had of been mentioned a few months ago on this forum I don't think too many people would've their phones would be disconnected right now either which is why I had felt safe in sending this "project" there.

Spoke to a local gunsmith this afternoon and after listening to the details (over expanded brass, rings on brass, primers FTF) he feels pretty certain that there are major problems with what was done when chambering and is hesitant to try and salvage it from a safety and liability standpoint. Also was concerned if it was cut out of round it potential could screw up his equipment trying to fix it or he may have to cut enough off the barrel and shorten an already short barrel which isn't really an option (for me at least).

I'll probably give another shop (such as SAC) a call to confirm but by the time I'm done with costs for shipment and labor I'm probably just throwing good money after bad trying to salvage versus just rebarrelling. My other option at this point is just selling the stock (Manners Tikka T4 with AICS bottom metal) since I just haven't really fell in love with the feel versus my Manners T5 and sell the the action to recoup whatever money I can get out of it to put towards another rifle.

I do appreciate all the input for the thread but feel like it's case closed with an outcome I was hoping not to hear. Who knows maybe a miracle will at least happen an my emails to the previous shop owner will be returned and I be able to get refunded ...

 

[bigedp51]

You have a "valley" in your cases and a "ridge line" in your chamber, a three year old was getting on-the-job training chambering and fitting "YOUR" new barrel that they found in the scrap pile behind the shop.

If the place is within driving distance I would drive to the shop and start throwing bricks through the windows to get their attention and your money back.

I'm sorry but I graduated first in my class from the Attila the Hun School of Diplomacy therefore raping, pillaging and burning the "alleged" gun shop to the ground would be the least I would do.

If you are too busy you could just hire one of the Philadelphia Eagles to rip the shop owners lungs out before the season starts.

Signed, Attila

 

[.50 Cal Cow]

You have a "valley" in your cases and a "ridge line" in your chamber, a three year old was getting on-the-job training chambering and fitting "YOUR" new barrel that they found in the scrap pile behind the shop.

If the place is within driving distance I would drive to the shop and start throwing bricks through the windows to get their attention and your money back.

I'm sorry but I graduated first in my class from the Attila the Hun School of Diplomacy therefore raping, pillaging and burning the "alleged" gun shop to the ground would be the least I would do.

If you are too busy you could just hire one of the Philadelphia Eagles to rip the shop owners lungs out before the season starts.

Signed, Attila

Yeah unfortunately this shop is (was) completely on the other side of the country.

 

[pawprint2]

take a cotton ball, and run it into the chamber (make sure chamber is clean and dry), run the ball in and out a few times, you should be able to see where the fibers are being pulled out. I don't agree that you should "polish" the chamber, you paid for a professionally chambered weapon, you should get a professionally chambered weapon.

 

[HodgdonExtreme]

Not a gunsmith, but it seems pretty clear to me you've got a flaw in the chamber. Frankly I'm surprised to hear you say it extracts nicely.

Anyway, that chamber would clean up by setting the barrel back an inch at most. Most any smith could do it easily - and it won't wreck their equipment, particularly if they prebore the new chamber.

Does it shoot well? If so I'd recommend spending the ~$250ish on a rechambering. If not, I wouldn't risk the money on what might be a scrapheap special barrel.

Sorry to hear you were screwed over on this!

A giant +1 on Mark @ Short Action Customs. Not only does the man know how to build a great rifle, he knows how to properly take care of a customer. You will NOT be sorry you went with him.

 

[.50 Cal Cow]

Well some encouraging news. The owner has replied to my email and says he will be in touch when he gets back from out of town to resolve the issue.