From the pic, does it look like that receiver was lug slotted for a Unertl? Kind of looks like it was, but my eyes may be playing tricks on me.
FBI Sniper Rifles
- Thread starter Toftwo
- Start date
Called McMillan, they aren’t accepting any smear order requests yet, and no timeline to when they will. But future plans are to have them available for order. I’ll just have to keep waiting on an Urban Camo Smear HTG for now….
I don’t remember, but don’t think it was clip/lug slotted. I know it was a D-prefix serial number…Remember, I’m old and blind, too!
Few years in the making. Pretty much done
. Need to go shoot them now…lol
. Need to go shoot them now…lolVery nice indeed
Somewhere….. some dogs fixn to die…
Actually, they have been annealed. That, and the fact I have lots of them from the job over the yrs, is the only reason I’m futzing with them. I’ll try a couple more things before I switch to my Lapua stuff. I’d like to have a bunch of ammo I can just shoot and leave the brass where it falls. I think I’m gonna start taking some of these “old guns” to matches and have fun like I used to….
Our worst reloads are in FGMM brass, even annealed.
Best loads were in new blue bag Winchester brass.
2nd best, lapua.
3rd Norma
4th black hills
5th select lots of lclr weighed and ...
Hornaday
Fgmm
And like you, at one point, I had 21,000 fgmm once fired cases... had...
Loading lapua right now for accuracy stuff, and using primed gi cases for shoot and lose cases. Working fine so far.
Best loads were in new blue bag Winchester brass.
2nd best, lapua.
3rd Norma
4th black hills
5th select lots of lclr weighed and ...
Hornaday
Fgmm
And like you, at one point, I had 21,000 fgmm once fired cases... had...
Loading lapua right now for accuracy stuff, and using primed gi cases for shoot and lose cases. Working fine so far.
Got a bunch of LC from my rifle team days. But, crimped primers, fired in M14’s, etc…. A lot of work! I’d rather just drink suds and slap shit together!
I've got several .308 rifles, but one of my favorites is an old sporterized 1909 Argentine Mauser that was converted to .308. My sons and I shoot in a military vintage silhouette match. (chickens, pigs, turkeys and rams at 200-500 meters). Sometimes I shoot "as issued" with a Swiss K-31, but got the sported Argentine to use in the "vintage military sporter" class. The Argy likes 42.6 grs of IMR 4064 with the Nosler 175gr CC, CCI 200 primer, in FGMM brass. COAL 2.810.
It doesn't do badly for a 110 year old action with a barrel of unknown make, and a cheap Nitrex 3-9 scope...
After settling on 42.6 grs of 4064, I dicked around with the COAL and it seemed to like 2.810 best. Target from my COAL testing. 2.810 in bottom right.
Just for shits and giggles slap a few 168 or 175 MKs over your exact same load and brass and see if much difference.
I know you have a bunch of the 180s but we have never been able to get them to shoot stupid good like 168 and 175s in .308s and the 190s in the 300WMs.
It's only cool if you have a bunch of bullets that aren't being picky little bitches.
If the 168 or 175 fly better out of your guns, maybe load the 180s in your old LC brass for positional training or the apocalypse.???
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I’ve got a bunch of 175’s and will jam, not jelly, them into the Lapua brass I’ve got.
Your suggestion is exactly what I’m thinking for the 180’s with the Federal and LC brass. Or, I’ll feed these 180’s to my WinMag and warp-speed them into quadruped meaty things.
I feel sure I can get them to do better than the 1.5” mess I had the other day.
When I went to FBI sniper school 1984, I loaded a bunch of my own ammo. 168 and 180. SMKs over IMR 4895. The 180’s kicked like a mule in Fed brass but shot sub .50 moa. That rifle had a Schneider Poly rifling barrel from
McMillan. I miss that rifle
One of the instructors had a smear stock M70 with Weaver T10 on it
M70 with a weaver..
That’s so long ago , question do dinosaurs have the same viral zone as people..
Tiny, tiny brains to aim at.M70 with a weaver..
That’s so long ago , question do dinosaurs have the same viral zone as people..
.....smartass.
Soa lower case t for the T zoneTiny, tiny brains to aim at.
.....smartass.
- Nov 3, 2010
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This vintage Weaver K series would take the challengeSoa lower case t for the T zone
M70 with a weaver..
That’s so long ago , question do dinosaurs have the same viral zone as people..
In the beginning of the 80'ies I was sponsored by Winchester Europe with a Win M70 Varmint in 222rem and a Weaver T16 for international moving target shooting in the old Olympic event "Running Deer 100m".
I still have the T16 scope:
I have an old insurance photo from app 1985 of the rifle with the T16 mounted, 3rd from bottom.
Top was my silhouette rifle, M700BDL Varmint in 7-08. The Leupold 6.5-20X40 with Leupold dot is one of the first five such scopes ever produced. As a young student in the 70'ies I ordered five from Leupold. I received a telex were they asked if the order was correct
Second from top is a Winchester M14 with a S&B PM 6x42 with bdc with 100m clicks from 1 - 800m. Above 300 there were also 50m clicks.
Bottom is a Kongsberg M59F1 in 7.62NATO with sidemounted scope (not pictured) as issued from the Norwegian National Guard. This specimen was a genuine .7moa rifle with selected Raufoss 147gr NATO ball ammo.
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As of late, I've had several people at work suggest we should swap platforms to 6.5 Creedmoor or 6mm ARC "because the FBI snipers are switching over to it".
Has anyone else heard this claim anywhere? I see vanishingly little value to swapping away from .308 for duty use, and yet the Need New Caliber bug is in full outbreak mode...
Has anyone else heard this claim anywhere? I see vanishingly little value to swapping away from .308 for duty use, and yet the Need New Caliber bug is in full outbreak mode...
I haven't heard anything consistent with the above. Maybe someday. For now, I think there's too much historical time proven data for staying with the current standard. There will always be outliers, and to each their own. I'm all for a better mousetrap; but on this topic, I'd hazard a guess that anyone advocating for anything other than. 308 Winchester doesn't have a single call out under their belt much less an instance of having been there and done that
If you have FBI budget, you might could afford to rebarrel your rifles 3 to 4 times more frequently as well as having 2 or 3 flavors of deployable "specialty" calibers.
You could even afford to swap back to .308 in a couple of years if you regretted the move.
We are solidly in checking the "that's a bad idea" box in almost all instances.
General purpose primary sniper rifle in .308 Win WITH PROPER MISSION SPECIFIC AMMO is the way.
You could even afford to swap back to .308 in a couple of years if you regretted the move.
We are solidly in checking the "that's a bad idea" box in almost all instances.
General purpose primary sniper rifle in .308 Win WITH PROPER MISSION SPECIFIC AMMO is the way.
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Listen I don't have any kind of love affair with the 308 the 308 is a good gun for shooting around what if you're going to do bench and you're going to do long range hidden and you want to accurate and you want to accurate quick 308 is not the way to go it's just physics it's not nostalgia it's not the FBI does it and that's the way it is it's going out on the range and shooting a lot and grasping for any edge that you can the shooting game is a game of nuances any nuance any edge you can get in competition I'm going to take it I got a guy a friend of mine that shoots 6 mm BR he goes around the country to all the matches he makes his own guns then in the game and spent a lot of money on lots of firearms and what I found this these cartridges that you guys shun that I reload for as you get out to four 500 yards they're a lot more easy to range than the 308 that's not to say that if you're shooting a 308 that's not a good thing I'm just saying if you're shooting up bullet that the ballistic coefficient is higher the more accurate the cartridge is just going to be!
We shoot three or four times a week maybe 5:00 if the weather is good cuz it's really nothing to do up here in the mountains I don't need to buy a big expensive gun a couple thousand dollars is enough a couple grand for a glass is good enough but I want to get the most out of the rig I'm running so I'm massaging everything that I can and taking every edge that I can't I'm shooting with army rangers a matter of fact I'm teaching army rangers how to set up and how to shoot and I'm just saying if I can drop my MOA down and I am then I'm going to go with the most accurate rock that I can throw! I'm not interested in nostalgia and I know I'm going to have a whole lot of people talking but if I can take a six five Creed more and I could put eight bullets in the same hole with a $1200 gun so better for me my bullet doesn't have to be the fastest in the world my gun doesn't have to be the most expensive in the world and my car just doesn't have to be the most popular in the world but I do want my bullet to hit where I aim it and do it consistently so I'll shoot a Dasher I'll shoot a Creed more I'll shoot a 7 mm mag I'll shoot a 30-06 I'll shoot a 300 win mag you guys shoot what you want to do I don't put you down for shooting a 308 I'm just saying for me I'm leaning on the sides of physics?
We shoot three or four times a week maybe 5:00 if the weather is good cuz it's really nothing to do up here in the mountains I don't need to buy a big expensive gun a couple thousand dollars is enough a couple grand for a glass is good enough but I want to get the most out of the rig I'm running so I'm massaging everything that I can and taking every edge that I can't I'm shooting with army rangers a matter of fact I'm teaching army rangers how to set up and how to shoot and I'm just saying if I can drop my MOA down and I am then I'm going to go with the most accurate rock that I can throw! I'm not interested in nostalgia and I know I'm going to have a whole lot of people talking but if I can take a six five Creed more and I could put eight bullets in the same hole with a $1200 gun so better for me my bullet doesn't have to be the fastest in the world my gun doesn't have to be the most expensive in the world and my car just doesn't have to be the most popular in the world but I do want my bullet to hit where I aim it and do it consistently so I'll shoot a Dasher I'll shoot a Creed more I'll shoot a 7 mm mag I'll shoot a 30-06 I'll shoot a 300 win mag you guys shoot what you want to do I don't put you down for shooting a 308 I'm just saying for me I'm leaning on the sides of physics?
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Not picking on the FBI or anybody else for that matter because we are all guilty of this to some degree.
Here is a couple of slides I use in classes as a reminder to others as well as myself that as long as your gear is sound, skills and good decisions will carry the day.
I would rather have a sharp dude with a 1980's Rem 700P that trains and makes good decisions over a mouth breather that just shows up and is slinging a $10K AI AW.
Punctuation. Please use it. Real paragraphs too.
The English major in me won’t even allow me to read that.
There are soooooo many people that fall into that trap.
The redneck in me won't allow me to read that.
Sorry dude, I'm just spell and speaking from a cell phone and it's difficult to edit it once it goes down it's in it's impossible to edit its rough
They're buying a stairway to heaven it's nice to see the gun in the safe but unless you get out and use it serves no purpose to me!
There is actually a really strong use case for 6mm ARC (or something similar) in Recce type rifles. There is an awareness that the standard issue rifles really underperform starting at 90 - 110 yards, because the ammo no longer consistently expands, a byproduct of velocity loss due to short barrels. So having a "transitional" set up that is still light weight but delivering ~80 grain expanding rounds at 2200+ FPS has a lot of value.
Which is not the problem you are generally trying to solve with U.S. LE sniper rifles. There you need accuracy, dependability, and bullet construction that lends itself to ignoring glass and other light barriers. 6.5 CM doesn't move the needle on any of the things you need (less recoil maybe?), until you start discussing engagement distances of 300 Y +. And that just isn't a thing, mostly because you can't positively ID at those distances (usually), you're in urban settings (usually), the subject is in/near a residence (usually).
But the problem is that everyone is doing long range cross training, or trying to "stretch their legs" at distance, and realizing that in terms of "hits on steel", 6.5 CM is a better option. But that is also how the German Artillery in WWII ended up carrying long barreled 9mm Lugers instread of rifles - they were getting similar hit percentages at distance. No one stopped to check if the bullet was performing as demanded. .308 has a long and documented performance in this role. It may still be that 6.5 CM is an adequate choice, but you can also argue that .300 WSM, or 7mm-08, or a million other cartridges need to be looked at.
Which is not the problem you are generally trying to solve with U.S. LE sniper rifles. There you need accuracy, dependability, and bullet construction that lends itself to ignoring glass and other light barriers. 6.5 CM doesn't move the needle on any of the things you need (less recoil maybe?), until you start discussing engagement distances of 300 Y +. And that just isn't a thing, mostly because you can't positively ID at those distances (usually), you're in urban settings (usually), the subject is in/near a residence (usually).
But the problem is that everyone is doing long range cross training, or trying to "stretch their legs" at distance, and realizing that in terms of "hits on steel", 6.5 CM is a better option. But that is also how the German Artillery in WWII ended up carrying long barreled 9mm Lugers instread of rifles - they were getting similar hit percentages at distance. No one stopped to check if the bullet was performing as demanded. .308 has a long and documented performance in this role. It may still be that 6.5 CM is an adequate choice, but you can also argue that .300 WSM, or 7mm-08, or a million other cartridges need to be looked at.
Not quite, I’ve seen this phenomenon in CAS, Action Pistol and various Hunting groups too!
The quest for the ”magic bullet/gadget”is strong.
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