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FBI Sniper Rifles
- Thread starter Toftwo
- Start date
What were the issues? Not being LE, I would have to assume there were add-ons not adopted and basic items not perfected/cleaned up?You and everyone else
I’m probably the most oppositionally biased person who could answer that question, but…
In my opinion, while the new configuration shot well within what I was told it needed to across the board, it’s MUCH harder to shoot as well as the old platform. It is much more sensitive to shooter input, doesn’t ride a bag well, it’s too light for my liking.
Those are my opinions.
Any other folks who’ve shot both?
Absolutely right. I think I wrote about the new gun in here somewhere. Overall, it is not a very forgiving weapon in the hands of a new shooter with novice fundamentals.
Hanging a suppressor on the end went a long way toward changing its personality for the better.
Any pictures of the new configuration? All I can find when I googled it were the old Remington/Winchester rifles and the box stock HS Precision HTR’s.
Scroll back through the pages of this thread. I posted some pics of one somewhere.
Here’s a pic I still have on my phone. Took this in Phoenix a couple years ago…
It probably shoots great when you got the suppressor and night sight on it. Not going to replace my current stock with a LSS-XL for sure now.
Any idea why they didn’t just cut the original contour barrels to 20” and put a more precision oriented chassis on it?
Any idea why they didn’t just cut the original contour barrels to 20” and put a more precision oriented chassis on it?
My personal opinion is that they got sold down the fast-twist road and wanted an 8-twist instead of shortening the original 12-twist barrels. Admittedly, we did have some high round count guns out in the field that probably needed new barrels, but the barrel that was chosen wasn’t a great replacement.
Regarding the chassis, there wasn’t a ton out there in 2016. Not for the price of the MDT….
I ran across a picture of the old "sniper tower" at Quantico.
The agent-trainee ran up three flights of stairs in the enclosed tower and took a firing position at a window using the Remington model 760 with the blue plastic training ammo. A plastic silhouette target would pop up randomly in one of the windows of the building facade facing the tower. The silhouette target would only expose about a third of itself, with the other two thirds being covered by the "window frame". The trainee had a few seconds to identify and fire at the target before it disappeared.
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I know that little bldg is still there; it’s a clubhouse/bar for HRT. Don’t know if the tower is still there or not. The facade is definitely gone. There’s a classroom building where the background of that photo is now…where I went to SWAT Basic.I ran across a picture of the old "sniper tower" at Quantico.
The agent ran up three stories of stairs in the enclosed tower and took a firing position at a window using the Remington model 760 with the blue plastic training ammo. A plastic silhouette target would pop up randomly in one of the windows of the building facade facing the tower. The silhouette target would only expose about a third of itself, with the other two thirds being covered by the "window frame". The shooter had a few seconds to identify and fire at the target before it disappeared.
I haven't found any to avoid, but, get a 70 with a floorplate, not a 670 without fp.
The rollout of the rifle should really be used as a case study throughout LE. The guy running the program nationally was, and is, a moron. I heard that he's back now as a contractor, after having finally retired, and likely won't rest until he has totally destroyed the sniper program. I've never met someone who has so reliably managed to learn the wrong half of just about every lesson there is. Fast to tell you everyone he has trained with and zero understanding of any concept as it relates to precision shooting.
The previous HS rifles were the same as you can buy today. A bulletproof gun that will reliably shoot tiny groups. Nothing flashy, a bit dated in a lot of ways, but simple for almost anyone to shoot well, which is what you want for a large org with a large number of snipers who don't actually get to train all that much.
There was a needed push to modernize the rifle platform, but with no money, planning, or competence, they abruptly decided to keep the actions, triggers, and scopes, screwed an insanely overtwisted 1:8 16" pipe on the end, put the world's worst (and cheapest) muzzle break on it, threw it in an MDT chassis that was selected because it was cheap and looked modern, and because MDT would mill the forends to take the badger NVG rails we already had, and called it good. I can't remember the total number of guns there were, but you went from a fleet of guns which on their worst days would put 5 rounds into a half inch group, to guns that our best shooters couldn't do much better than 1.25 inches with.
Any amount of headwind and you would get dirt or sand in your eyes with each shot. That is because the muzzle break the guy selected was open on the bottom so it kicked up a cloud of dust with every shot. Think about this for a second - they issued a rifle to snipers nationwide that had an open bottom muzzle break, directing most of the blast to the ground in front of the shooter. I brought this up to him at one of the courses and his response was "well, that company went out of business, and fuck them. We bought it because it was cheaper than a thread protector." Try reconciling those two thoughts. Also explains why you weren't allowed to remove the stupid thing and just put on a thread protector; we didn't have them.
Getting cans on them has helped, mostly because you aren't kicking up a bunch of dust with each shot. Cans were only pushed out because guys are losing their hearing and the health safety folks finally mandated it - the geniuses back at Quantico fought tooth and nail for a bunch of years to try to prevent the SWAT program from having access to suppressors...
The only positive thing I've seen in a few years is that we now have a great two stage trigger in the gun. That has made a pretty big difference for a lot of folks.
@TorF
Try this:
mcmillanusa.com
Try this:
Model 70 Flat Top
The Model 70 Hunting stock duplicates the factory standard Model 70 stock with a Monte Carlo cheekpiece. It can be used for any late Model 70 as well as any Pre-64 Model 70. It will accept up to a #5 barrel contour and may come as a blind magazine for the Ranger Series Model 70’s,
mcmillanusa.com
I just snorted when I busted out laughing.
Thanks. I needed that levity to end this work day.
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FBI Sniper Rifles Through The Years
Early FBI sniper rifles were surprisingly basic. Today’s FBI HRT (Hostage Rescue Team) models are the tip of the spear in long-range shooting accuracy and features.
gundigest.com
Dude thats so sweet! 10mm MP5's are the shit.
A 9x25 Dillon MP5 would be perfection in a subgun...
IIRC- James Williamson said the 10mm MP5's had hi-pressure and low-pressure bolt heads/locking pieces to use depending if you're running full house 10mm or the tamed down stuff..?
The MP5 documents and parts lists from HK do list those for that stated purpose, thought I have no direct experience. Mine was always 9mm.
Doc
I’ve never heard that before. Never been issued an extra bolt. Well, not for the MP5/10. Our ammo is probably all the same pressure spec, negating the need for two bolts.
My department had some of the very first 40 SxW MP5’s The high and low pressure bolt was for the two different calibers. 40 and 10mm. The low pressure was originally for the 40 SxW but our 40’s screwed up with that low pressure We had lots of blown cases. I tried the 10mm locking piece ( don’t recall term for certain) and the 40’s worked perfectly We changed to 10mm bolt set up. I don’t know if they used same part number on the 10 and 40 after that but HxK changed to same design for both calibers after
That’s best my old brain can remember it
That’s best my old brain can remember it
Do I spy a SR25 w/ ultra awesome purple rail?
@USMCSGT0331 get your hind end in here - youd love this stuff!
MP5's ain't worth a SHIT! Don't matter if they are 9mm .40/10 mm or .45. They don't have enough range to hit past 100m. Let alone energy. And for up close they all have a bad tendency to over penetrate. I would far and away take some version of an AR-15 over an MP5.
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Well, I mean of course I'd choose most any semi auto rifle in a unknown combat situation over a MP5, especially a AR.
They're still cool though. The images of the 22SAS storming the embassy are maximum level of badass.
Looking cool is damn near like 50% of the equation I always thought.There was only like 1 or 2 MP7's on the Osama Bin Laden raid. Relegated to the dog handlers pretty much. But they're still cool as all hell and I'd absolutely take one if I get it, despite the $50,000+ price tag for a class 3 registered version.
Seriously?
Just for starters: no one is issuing 9 mm SMGs over 5.56 rifles /today/. The SMG era was back when most western armies had 7.62 rifles, the US and slowly more allies had slightly lighter rifles in 5.56. Rifles. Not carbines. For the period where the MP5 was the bestest of the SMGs, the option in the US armory was: pump shotgun, M14, M16. No comparison.
Also... can't hit past 100 m? Have you shot one? I ran a (different) 9 mm in a rifle match for fun once. 300 yd headshots and tons of energy; it's a big fat bullet so velocity is less important than with light bullets. Drop is a thing but you can work with that. And for full-auto, you have a better chance to see splash in the real world.
Many armies issued mostly SMGs to some formations up till the 5.56 era. The UZI wasn't a close-combat weapon, but the standard reservist weapon of the IDF till like the late-70s. The Arabs attack, you get the uniform on, go to the reserve center and get handed an UZI, a handful of mags, and two hand grenades, off you go.
Esp at auto, the 9 mm SMG is entirely easy to hit with out to 3-400 yds. Bursts (which are dispersed more than careful single shots, and the MP5 with the closed bolt is even more real world accurate than most) can easily stay on a car at 400 yds. An 8-10 round burst can easily hit a man sized target with 2-4 rounds. If that seems inaccurate, check real world rounds-per-hit for any other weapon system.
Sure, today a short 5.56 rifle, with a suppressor, is generally a better idea but that's today. And there are still missions for which smaller yet, less blast, more easily suppressed, etc. is a good thing, so people jump out of APCs and Bearcats with them every day still, if less than before.
Brother
Back in the 1980’s it’s what we had that worked the best
Short ARs back then had carry handles and were iffy to work
As soon as they cut the handle off and figured out how to
Make the SBRs run we started changing over.
My first carbine had a scope on top. You had to zero 3.5” low at 25 yards for 100 yard zero. You really had to do math on the fly back then for CQB
We installed red dots on MP5’s and the trend was zero at seven yards but I pointed out a seven yard zero with that set up was over the head at 100 yards
The MP5 was one of the few full autos you could control for CQB
About 1990 bad guys found soft body armor and the 9mm sun gun was useless so they started making modifications to 5.56’s and the rest is where we are now
MP5 not perfect but was king for awhile
We've had M177's since Vietnam. They morphed into the Car-15, which is now the M4. Unfortunately due to a lot of bullshit lies about how the 'mouse round' was incapable of killing, bigger rounds were preferred. The truth is higher velocity kills better than a bigger hole. However, if the hole is placed center mass it will kill. Regarding the 'range' of an MP5, if you have to go past 100m you have to start adjusting sight's. The analogy of zeroing @ 7m is incorrect. You zero for max point blank range. When you do that, the AR carbine will have a much longer point blank range without adjusting the sights. It's point and shoot the kill zone, not do math on the fly for CQB.
Also of note, back in the early eighties, when training for 'building clearing' (now called CQB), I always beat MP5's using 1911's. Same with Car-15's. This bullshit of clearing with a sub-machinegun and expecting to get faster times (time is life...hostages matter) amazes me. I've heard dozens of reasons why MP5's should be used. Mostly because the Brits were successful at the Iranian embassy. I will say they are more accurate than pistols at longer 'short ranges', like 25-30m inside a building. Other than that, no carbine is as maneuverable as a pistol. Practice shooting a pistol constantly is the key.
On a side note, you can still do a pretty good job of clearing with an M16-A1 by throwing the buttstock over your shoulder. It has the impediment of not getting to move through tight spaces if the butt hits a wall or doorjamb. But, if moving through an area, that isn't usually a problem. But, tight spaces are a problem for anything longer than a pistol.
So yeah, seriously. The MP5 is nothing more than a glamour toy. I carried one into Grenada. It was the most useless weapon we could have brought there.
Also of note, back in the early eighties, when training for 'building clearing' (now called CQB), I always beat MP5's using 1911's. Same with Car-15's. This bullshit of clearing with a sub-machinegun and expecting to get faster times (time is life...hostages matter) amazes me. I've heard dozens of reasons why MP5's should be used. Mostly because the Brits were successful at the Iranian embassy. I will say they are more accurate than pistols at longer 'short ranges', like 25-30m inside a building. Other than that, no carbine is as maneuverable as a pistol. Practice shooting a pistol constantly is the key.
On a side note, you can still do a pretty good job of clearing with an M16-A1 by throwing the buttstock over your shoulder. It has the impediment of not getting to move through tight spaces if the butt hits a wall or doorjamb. But, if moving through an area, that isn't usually a problem. But, tight spaces are a problem for anything longer than a pistol.
So yeah, seriously. The MP5 is nothing more than a glamour toy. I carried one into Grenada. It was the most useless weapon we could have brought there.
Oh I got to remember this line.
True, but even I forget that was the sort of thing that required weird workarounds or meant that other guns (even other 5.56s with just better mounting options) were popular in their niches.
I'd take a M1 Garand or SKS over a MP5 at anything past 100yd.
Once upon a time, the Thompson and Grease Gun were utilized. And yet in that time period, I'd choose a M1 Carbine first, for anything that I would have used a Thompson or Grease Gun for...more accurate, longer range/flatter trajectory/higher MV, less recoil, etc. The M1 Carbine was pretty much the "AR15 before the AR15" in America.
MP5's, Thompsons, and Grease Guns are still cool though.
This is the vintage section, a Remington 513T or Winchester 1886 have very very little useful application to modern combat... but they're still cool and interesting as well.
Totally Kid Rock-approved
And with that said, the ultimate cool Grease Gun:
If we want to argue the virtues of a SMG in a modern combat environment.. theres probably a better place for it.
Cheers gents
Once upon a time, the Thompson and Grease Gun were utilized. And yet in that time period, I'd choose a M1 Carbine first, for anything that I would have used a Thompson or Grease Gun for...more accurate, longer range/flatter trajectory/higher MV, less recoil, etc. The M1 Carbine was pretty much the "AR15 before the AR15" in America.
MP5's, Thompsons, and Grease Guns are still cool though.
This is the vintage section, a Remington 513T or Winchester 1886 have very very little useful application to modern combat... but they're still cool and interesting as well.
Totally Kid Rock-approved
And with that said, the ultimate cool Grease Gun:
If we want to argue the virtues of a SMG in a modern combat environment.. theres probably a better place for it.
Cheers gents
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There is no problem making 9mm ammo that penetrates soft kevlar body armour.
I've watched a test a Norwegian gun rag did with a Soviet PSM pistol. It penetrated 24 layers ( if I remember correctly) of kevlar due to the edges of the "square" penetrator cut the kevlar fibers. The PSM is the size of a Walther PP.
In the same test Swedish M39B steel jacket 9mm and Czech surplus steel core 7.65x25 went clean through a Second Chance west at the time. A 44mag, 240gr jsp loaded to the old pressure standard, did not penetrate.
I think the Czech ammo was forbidden to import to the US due to the AP performance.
It's a long time ago but I think we clocked the Czech ammo to 1800fps out of a Mauser C96 712 made in the 30'ies. (2nd gear was deactivated..)
I've watched a test a Norwegian gun rag did with a Soviet PSM pistol. It penetrated 24 layers ( if I remember correctly) of kevlar due to the edges of the "square" penetrator cut the kevlar fibers. The PSM is the size of a Walther PP.
In the same test Swedish M39B steel jacket 9mm and Czech surplus steel core 7.65x25 went clean through a Second Chance west at the time. A 44mag, 240gr jsp loaded to the old pressure standard, did not penetrate.
I think the Czech ammo was forbidden to import to the US due to the AP performance.
It's a long time ago but I think we clocked the Czech ammo to 1800fps out of a Mauser C96 712 made in the 30'ies. (2nd gear was deactivated..)
Oh we knew that. Problem is it just lacks the killing ability of a good 5.56 round
We found the 5.56 with soft points would pop through soft armor front and stay in body dumping its energy into bad guy. The 9mm HP would not go through front panel and the FMJ did not dump enough energy
Remember this was 1980’s before technology made great 9mm bullets. On no armor hammering (multiple shots into same area) with sup gun worked fairly well. The 5.56 worked better all around
On carry handles. The added height made them a PIA for HRT type work. I never considered the MP5 anything but an HRT type entry weapon. It was far more accurate than a pistol
Not going to argue what’s best just saying what we used back then and why. Arguing this versus that is like comparing a 1903 Bolt against a modern battle rifle
And at the end of the day we used what was issued and figured it out. It’s not like they opened up the gun store and let us have what we thought we wanted. We used what we had.
MP5’s are cool! That should be a good enough reason right there.
Didn’t the FBI buy a bunch of semi-auto MP5’s in the late 80’s for field agents?
Didn’t the FBI buy a bunch of semi-auto MP5’s in the late 80’s for field agents?
