I can't see that on the pic properly but is it not advisible to angle the recoil lug sides a few degrees invards towards the bottom to avoid risk of damage to the bedding when the action is inserted and removed from the stock?
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FBI Sniper Rifles
- Thread starter Toftwo
- Start date
......or
If the user actually uses the proper tools to remove actions from the bedding straight vertical, rather than rocking them like I would have to do, there should be no disturbance of the bedding.
something like this....
If the user actually uses the proper tools to remove actions from the bedding straight vertical, rather than rocking them like I would have to do, there should be no disturbance of the bedding.
something like this....
Still in pieces homie…. I actually stopped by there today and he had one rifle in front of mine to finish.
@Skunk
U might recognize what failed at training today.
90 days ago, incident. Goes to forensics, returns in app 30 days. In a cardboard rifle box...
60 days ago, returned, and perfect Qual. No problemo...
30 days ago, Qual, no problemo.
Today.... see pic. We assume stress fracture, structural defect. Don't really know.
I'm kinda like, f anything aluminum on MY duty rifle, just sayin...
U might recognize what failed at training today.
90 days ago, incident. Goes to forensics, returns in app 30 days. In a cardboard rifle box...
60 days ago, returned, and perfect Qual. No problemo...
30 days ago, Qual, no problemo.
Today.... see pic. We assume stress fracture, structural defect. Don't really know.
I'm kinda like, f anything aluminum on MY duty rifle, just sayin...
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With six fasteners through such a thinly machined part, with all those edges (stress risers), I'm not terribly surprised those mounts exhibit problems like that. Considering all the surface area those rings have on the interior, it seems like four fasteners and a little less meat machined away would lend greater overall strength.
I've never broken a Badger part.
Im not defending or putting down anyones product but sometimes I think when stacking tolerances as scope tube dimensions vary from companies or even batches a 6061 mount may be preferable as opposed to 7075 due to the formers less brittleness and elasticity.
I stumbled across this rifle on G.B. and thought it might be of interest on here:
"This rifle was the grand prize at the FBI national academy convention in 1984"
"This rifle was the grand prize at the FBI national academy convention in 1984"
I’ve been watching that one… started out originally at like $6000 asking price. Sweet rifle tho.
Can I play too? More of an “inspired” build rather than a clone, but my take on a vintage FBI Sniper.
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That's one gorgeous rifle... outstanding build sir!
DW
Looks almost like a later model HRT job. They had the unertl at some point.
I don’t want to necro-post, but I just waded through 12 pages of this thread. What sucked me in was the initial comments about the SPR A3G’s not really bring worth a damn to the FBI. So this comment caught my attention. Here is why.
About the same timeframe as above 12-15 years ago, we took possession of a new in the box FN SPR A3G from a PD that shit canned their sniper off of a regional team. I still recall the test target. .315MOA shot by Ben Voss.
For 2 years (at least) I couldn’t get this rifle to shoot anywhere near 1 MOA. And I thought it was me. Must be. Damn thing has a .315 MOA test target. At 400 yards, the random error was large enough to completely miss poppers. We even checked the serial number range when the whole chrome-plating issue came out. Nope. Didn’t cover our gun.
When I got a chance to shoot a German PD sniper rifle, it was holes in holes accurate at 100 yards. No muss. No fuss. I literally came out of the glass, looked at my coworkers and said, “The FN is for sale”.
For years, I just blamed myself. Chalked it up as “Me & the A3G just had bad mojo together”. 15 years ago, I didn’t have enough experience or confidence to call bullshit on a rifle out of the gate. Now after reading this thread, I am really starting to wonder the quiet part out loud: The A3G really was, “number 1 bullshit”.
Regards,
Marky
I don't know what to say about the SBR/PBR's made by FN. Mine wasn't shooting up to snuff so I sold it. Also because I'm not really a .308 guy. I prefer something with a lot better BC. So anyhow, I sold it with some misgivings. The guy who got it, said he cleaned out my skim bedding and something or other that I had not torqued down I guess, he torqued. Sent me pics of a one hole group with my old FN.
As stated though, I had other reasons to sell it, so what ever misgivings I had I let go of. I wanted to turn the rifle into a 7-08, .260 or .243, but the magazine (what looked like an AICS) didn't allow for the length I wanted. I was happier it went to someone who appreciated it. I made about $100 more than I paid.
I bought the SPR A3G because it had so many features that I liked such as it's feeding process. However, the first one wouldn't shoot worth a damn, and the second one (replacement for the first one) that I received about 15 months after returning #1 wouldn't feed rounds from one side of the magazine.
The FN customer service representative was really great, and I felt sorry for him, because he knew that I should have a decent rifle, however, they can't send me a rifle if they don't have any in their inventory. To make up for the delay, they sent along a Leupold MK4 scope with the second rifle (MK4 was a very high end scope at the time).
I always got the feeling that individual civilian sales just weren't a priority, that FN's bread and butter was military and law enforcement agencies.
I haven't bought an FN product since that experience.
The FN customer service representative was really great, and I felt sorry for him, because he knew that I should have a decent rifle, however, they can't send me a rifle if they don't have any in their inventory. To make up for the delay, they sent along a Leupold MK4 scope with the second rifle (MK4 was a very high end scope at the time).
I always got the feeling that individual civilian sales just weren't a priority, that FN's bread and butter was military and law enforcement agencies.
I haven't bought an FN product since that experience.
It’s a glued on slab of leather. Undoubtedly, an old cow’s ass-cheek!
Joking aside, it’s definitely a hand-shaped/applied piece of stacked leather. We discussed them somewhere here previously. Not sure if it is/was commercially available or just an improvisation.
tape
Getting closer!
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Ok, here’s what took so long….
This is a new production Leupold “Long Range” base. When I initially bolted it to the receiver, with the front snugged down there was a .030” gap underneath the rear end. So, without any shim material handy, I decided a dab of JBWeld was worth a try. I’ve never bedded a base before, but it turned out ok.
This is a new production Leupold “Long Range” base. When I initially bolted it to the receiver, with the front snugged down there was a .030” gap underneath the rear end. So, without any shim material handy, I decided a dab of JBWeld was worth a try. I’ve never bedded a base before, but it turned out ok.
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Ok. Got it zero’d pretty well. The dots across the top row were fired while moving the windage screws on the mount to keep the scope as close to optical center as I could.
On the bottom row, moving left to right, I fired two rounds, made an adjustment up and right, then fired the final three rounds with the same sight setting. You can see what those would look like if the last three were fired at the same dot.
Shoots just like a good rifle should!
On the bottom row, moving left to right, I fired two rounds, made an adjustment up and right, then fired the final three rounds with the same sight setting. You can see what those would look like if the last three were fired at the same dot.
Shoots just like a good rifle should!
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Just some of the random ammo and other stuff I picked up in my time as a FBI sniper. Notice the part number on the 150gr Core-Lokt…
Couple unused data/dope books…
It’s hard to tell, but that’s a flat-shoe trigger for the HS Precision rifle that we fooled with for a short while before the Geissele was around. It was never approved for use. Only a couple of us ever used it and this might be the only new-in-pkg one still around. I’m sure it’s worth $millions!
10286FBI was my first gun. Absolute hammer.
Couple unused data/dope books…
It’s hard to tell, but that’s a flat-shoe trigger for the HS Precision rifle that we fooled with for a short while before the Geissele was around. It was never approved for use. Only a couple of us ever used it and this might be the only new-in-pkg one still around. I’m sure it’s worth $millions!
10286FBI was my first gun. Absolute hammer.
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I know these pics are not very exciting, and are duplicative, but they’re better than nothing.
I need to see if HS will sell me a bare action….
I need to see if HS will sell me a bare action….
Oooh, I'm just enamoured of the DBBS in Woodland. Still use my ODG one regularly, a little bit just because it annoys all my friends they don't make it anymore. The Woodland is even sexier.
Interesting.Others will know more, but my understanding is that Federal typically loads their 168 GMM ammo to ~ 2600 or 2650 fps - as it is an accuracy node out to 600 yards - verified by the US military during the NM M14 program way back in the 1960s. I could be wrong, but I think for the past 20 years or so, Federal 168 GMM ammo has been loaded with a medium burn-rate powder with a port pressure level that is safe for M14s/M1As. A lot of matches were won with Federal GMM in National Match M14s during the 1980s-1990s for all events out to 600 yards - before the NM M16's took over at Camp Perry.
As your question about 'why' they would load it at 2650 fps? Well, I suspect Federal is still catering to the M1A crowd, and slightly downloads their famous 168 GMM ammo so its safe and accurate in an M1A. (It's still my favorite factory ammo in my M1As, and I use it as my 'control' load when handloading for an M1A).
Here's some history if interested: (see pics 1 thru 4) Federal's 168 SMK match round is listed on the boxes at 2600 fps or 2650 fps (using 24" barrel), based on what is written on their more recent boxes. The old 'red box' ammo from 1988 doesn't list velocity, neither does the silver 1991/93 dated box. The 1998 dated 'white and blue' box lists 2600 fps. The more recent 'orange and black' boxes dated 2009 reflect 2650 for the 168 SMK (and 2600 fps for the 175 SMK).
Here's a link with a lot of info re the old M852 round that used the 168 SMK, but below is the key finding from military testing for the National Match M14 rifle:
All you ever wanted to know about M852,
but were afraid to ask . . . NOTE: In the study cited, evaluations of several commercial match grade bullets for their potential to improve the accuracy of the 7.62mm M118 Match Cartridge. It is inevitable that comparisons will be made between the performances of the various manufacturers as...www.m14forum.com
The 1962 Change Request being referred to re the 2640 fps for the old M72 match ammo (30-06) - was applied to the then-new M118 Match ammo (7.62x51mm) at 2550 fps (both using the same 174 grain FMJBT bullet of that era). I mention this b/c the same 2550 fps was specified 20 years later (circa 1981) when the military adopted the M852 match ammo that used the same 168 SMK that Federal still uses today in their Gold Medal Match 308W ammo. I should note that the muzzle velocity of M852 out of bolt action rifle with a 24" barrel is in the 2600 to 2650 range, but out of an M14 its about 50 fps slower due to the shorter 22" barrel and gas port that bleeds off some of the pressure. (5th picture shows some 1987 era M852 Match with the 168 SMK bullet. Note the velocity of 2550 fps - but not stated is that refers being '78 feet from the muzzle,' per the US military's legacy early 20th century testing methodology).
Excerpt from an online article that has unfortunately disappeared, 7.62 NATO Long Range Match Cartridges, By Frederick Salberta:
I think this is why old-timers who competed with the M14/M1A 'back in the day' - recommend that whatever medium burn rate powder one uses for loading the 168 SMK, try to load the charge weight so its as close to 2550 to 2600 fps at the muzzle as possible - at least that is what I have heard time and time again. In a bolt action rifle, obviously there is no such thing as port pressure, so one can use a variety of burn rates and bullet weights, but that is not the case in the civilian M1A (based on the M14).
(Last 3 pics show Federal's American Eagle 168 OTM ammo that is designed/marketed specifically for the M1A, and is a slightly cheaper alternative to the 168 GMM, - but I will note that velocity is the same as GMM, 2650 fps at the muzzle with a 168 grain 'Open Tip Match' bullet).
(For 1000 yards, typically different bullets were used due to the instability of the 168 SMK beyond 800 yards. I will note that based on that article by Frederick Salberta, for the 1000 yards matches, in the 1980s/early 1990s the USMC did load a very hot 168 SMK load called the "G4" load - and it was strictly on virgin LC brass and it was a once-fired proposition with all that over-stressed brass collected for disposal after the match. The gas system on the M14 rifle was modified with a larger gas port for all the additional port pressure. The long-range M14 rifles set-up for the G4 rounds were dedicated, and no other ammo was used in them. The reported velocity was 2800 fps out of an M14, so it was still super sonic at 1000 yards, but it was hard on the guns and I assume barrel life was short too... The 175 SMK bullet came out in 1995 and fixed that range limitation inherit on the older 168 SMK design).
Apologizes for the verbosity, but I have read a lot about this topic, and I hope some of this info was helpful.
This is exactly what my father said. They actually pulled bullets on LC match ammo. They would then clean the sealant off the bullet and dump the powder. The loads were then dropped and weighed, put back in the case, and then the bullet seated. I still have some of this ammo lying around. It was marked across the primer with a black marker to indicate it was 1k ammo. He also mentioned they scrapped the brass on these loads. One thing he never mentioned to me was the change to the guns. I have his service rifle M1 that was built and his M1A was his 1K rifle.
Very cool thread, thank you for posting this information. Too much great knowledge and history is lost when the guys like my father and many in the long rang world leave this life for the next.
ETA: I have all his old load date for this round in the Garage at his house. I also need to crack the big safe open and pull the data books out. He has one for both if the match guns. He also has a couple on M40's he used.
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Sold this gem a number of years back.with only maybe 100 rnds down the tube.
Got to shoot my m70 today, shoots damn good. Thanks to one of our members here for all the help. Now off to get black oxide!
