Fed GMM 175 gr and LC M118 L R 175 Powder Data

[eodsix]

Any one out there able to tell me what powder and weight that Federal is putting into their Gold Medal Match 175 SMK(well I can weigh it myself but still don't know what powder it it is)?

Same question for the Lake City M118 LR. It used to be WC750 but that's changed to 43.1gr of RL15 I believe can anyone confirm that? Is this still true and what weight are they using?

Last post here on this topic what early in 2009. Things can change in more than 18 months.

 

[Jerry m]

Re: Fed GMM 175 gr and LC M118 L R 175 Powder Data

$64,000 question. At least part of the answer is that they use powder that is different than the powder available for use by reloaders.

IMHO the answer you should seek is what load shoots best in your rifle.

Good luck

Jerry

 

[JDT]

Re: Fed GMM 175 gr and LC M118 L R 175 Powder Data

I guess this is the same question I was actually about ask, I remember their being a load using I believe TAC powder that was pretty close to the same load as factory. I know the powder isn't exact factory specs, but I remember reading on here a year or so ago about some using this (I think) to load as close to factory specs as possible. I would be interested to know if this is correct and what the actual load data was with that powder under the 168's and 175's to get as close to the factory gold medal match loads as possible.

 

[eodsix]

Re: Fed GMM 175 gr and LC M118 L R 175 Powder Data

The reason I ask this is that I use a Remington M24 with the M3A scope with the M118 BDC. The M118 BDC is geared toward the M24's barrel and the M118 ammo. I've been using Fed GMM 175gr for several years now and amassed a huge volume of once fired brass. I want to start loading it to mil spec and I'd like to do it without a lot of trial and error.

This thread has a lot of really great info, i just wonder if there is anything else anything more definitive?

M118 Long Range

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Re: Fed GMM 175 gr and LC M118 L R 175 Powder Data

They use a low flash variant of RL-15. Depending on the ammo lot number weights have been 43 or 43.5 grains. I haven't heard anything about TAC in 7.62 loads. M262 in 5.56 uses TAC.

 

[KYpatriot]

Re: Fed GMM 175 gr and LC M118 L R 175 Powder Data

I have no idea what powder they are using but I was getting very similar results from 44.5 grains of varget in a factory box-stock Rem 5r milspec. I shoot 45 grains now as it is a little faster and still groups the same, .6 MOA average at 100 yards for 5 shot groups, with a few closer to .8 or .9 MOA and some in the .2 MOA range, depending on what kind of day Im having...

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Fed GMM 175 gr and LC M118 L R 175 Powder Data

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EODsix</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The reason I ask this is that I use a Remington M24 with the M3A scope with the M118 BDC. The M118 BDC is geared toward the M24's barrel and the M118 ammo. I've been using Fed GMM 175gr for several years now and amassed a huge volume of once fired brass. I want to start loading it to mil spec and I'd like to do it without a lot of trial and error.

This thread has a lot of really great info, i just wonder if there is anything else anything more definitive?

M118 Long Range
</div></div>
What you need to find out is what speed under what conditions Leupy marked the turret for, then load to that speed.
Even if you matched the exact load data of a specific lot of M118LR it would be different in your brass. Get the same BC bullet to the same speed at the same elevation at standard pressure and you're good.

Then start logging what adjustments different conditions will require....

 

[eodsix]

Re: Fed GMM 175 gr and LC M118 L R 175 Powder Data

Yea I know that I need to achieve a specific muzzle velocity and I think the BDC data was done at 29.something barometric pressure. I don't think I really want to split the hairs barometric pressure but I also don't want to buy a chronograph either.

RL15 is what I have ordered. I have 4350 that I've used to good success as well as 4064 and WC748. I think I'm going to try the 43gr of RL15 tomorrow when the powder arrives.

Anyone ever taken your reloading stuff to the range and loaded on-site? I'm thinking I may do that this time to save time and wasted effort on lots that don't work out.

 

[JDT]

Re: Fed GMM 175 gr and LC M118 L R 175 Powder Data

Sorry, I had to do a lot of searching, but I think the ramshot tack was said to be the same or very similar to what was being used in the Black Hills Match 168's not the federal gold medal match. I remembered it because I bought a couple lbs of tack when the discussion was going on to supposedly try and replicate the recipe. Ended up just sticking to my varget and loading to different specs for each rifle I own. Not sure how to post a link but if it works here is where I read it http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1815692

 

[JDT]

Re: Fed GMM 175 gr and LC M118 L R 175 Powder Data

Forgot to add in the above link somewhere it was said that the powder used for the Federal Gold Medal load is IMR 4064 examined and compared under an electron microscope. Don't know the truth to it but I remembered reading about this a while back. As far as how much powder I have no idea. I am also interested to know as I would like a generic load that I can count on working in any rifle I grab with good results.

 

[eodsix]

Re: Fed GMM 175 gr and LC M118 L R 175 Powder Data

Well if the Fed GMM is 4064 its an easy thing to pull a bullet and weigh what's inside then put it back together. I can do that tomorrow and have 4064 on hand. I'll let ya'll know what the weight is.

 

[BCP]

Re: Fed GMM 175 gr and LC M118 L R 175 Powder Data

If what you have is working well then chrono it and dupe it with your own powder. Shouldn't be too difficult.

You could try calling leupold and having a custom turret made too, I know they make them for the M2 and M3 turrets.

 

[eodsix]

Re: Fed GMM 175 gr and LC M118 L R 175 Powder Data

Oh yea I have had several turrets made and they're pretty good at it.

Chronographing is part of the problem, I really don't want to buy a chronograph for hand full of shooting sessions. I guess I should yield to the logic and get one. It may be my only solution.

 

[CTone03]

Re: Fed GMM 175 gr and LC M118 L R 175 Powder Data

I pulled some FGMM 175 grain loads and measured the powder both by weight and by size awhile back.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...605#Post1507605

My conclusion is that it is 42.5 grains of Reloder 15 with some proprietary coating. I have had some recent luck at duplicating the load using the once fired GM casings with 42.5 grains of RL15, as I am getting the same accuracy, and my confidence in it is 98% right now.

In the past, 175g FGMM clocks in at 2,535ish from my 20" barrel on average at about 500' ASL in 50 degree weather. I tried the 42.5 grains in the once fired GM case over a year ago when it was 17 degrees out, but I kept the ammo in my truck with the heat on until I shot it, where it clocked in at 2,505 fps average for ten rounds. Pretty close all things considered, except my accuracy wasn't great. About two weeks ago I tried the same scenario again with the same loads, only it was 30 degrees, ammo kept out on the bench this time, and my velocity average was 2,461 fps average for ten rounds. Sounds about right to me, and the accuracy was there this time.

In my experience, the difference in velocity due to temperature is on par with other loads that I have used with RL15. I used CCI BR2 primers with these loads, and loaded them to 2.223" OAL to ogive, or 2.800" COAL with a 175 grain SMK. I have 20 more of them loaded now, and will post an update again to show how they do.

 

[Emilio]

Re: Fed GMM 175 gr and LC M118 L R 175 Powder Data

I have to load M118LR loads for my M40A1 clone. I use LC brass, FGMM primers, 175gr Sierras, and 43.1gr of RL-15. This load tracks VERY wel in my MST-100 which is set for M118LR.

 

[eodsix]

Re: Fed GMM 175 gr and LC M118 L R 175 Powder Data

Great info, keep it coming. I'm going to try these recipes at the earliest opportunity, this week, next week.

I broke down and ordered a chronograph so I'll be able to provide some muzzle data here in this string.

 

[BCP]

Re: Fed GMM 175 gr and LC M118 L R 175 Powder Data

Chrono'ing it is the easiest way, removes the guesswork.

 

[CTone03]

Re: Fed GMM 175 gr and LC M118 L R 175 Powder Data

I have some more data and pictures to share.

Here's a picture of my target from last week. Red circled group on the right was the first one, and the wind was gusting 10-15 mph or more and I didn't wait for it to settle; I just clicked off five rounds. Vertical disp. is pretty good, and the group overall measured 1.135". Red circled group on the left is my second, and I waited for the wind to stop so I could shoot. That group measured .725", but it was still fired kind of hasty like. Distance was 100 yards, and the horizontal dispersion on the right group is entirely within the realm of the wind that day.

I shot these groups today at a range of 185 yards. Fired three sighters, and then shot the red circled group on the right, six rounds measuring 1.775". Right after that I loaded a magazine with ten rounds and shot them all at the target on the left, which measured 2.789". Not very happy with this.

I do note that while these targets are excellent at 100 yards, they suck past that; the crosshairs of the 10x SS completely covered the red diamond to where I had to keep moving the cross hairs to make sure I was on it; I could barely see them as it was. I am confident that that had a lot to do with this, I was just too short on time today to put up a bigger one. On the ten round group, shots 3 and 9 I noted in my book that I let those shots go at the top of my breathing cycle, and felt that they were not great. Also, I didn't take the time I should have to shoot tight groups as father time was giving me a savage beating, and I also didn't give the gun any time to cool between shots.

As far as velocity, here are those results:
1 - 2,485
2 - 2,478
3 - 2,471

4 - error
5 - 2,454
6 - 2,439
7 - 2,458
8 - 2,465
9 - error

10 - 2,500
11 - 2,492
12 - 2,503
13 - 2,490
14 - 2,492
15 - 20 were errors

Average - 2,477

That's a bit lower than my average of 2,556 fps from a month ago at 60 degrees with factory FGMM. My chrony is a CED M2 at 15' from the muzzle. You can see that as the chamber and barrel warmed up, the velocities went up too.

The loads were made from once fired FGM brass from both 175 and 168 grain rounds, CCI BR2 primers, 42.5 grains of Reloder-15, and a new 175 grain SMK bullet. Cases were cleaned, trimmed to 2.003 and chamfered. Bullet was seated to 2.223" to the ogive, or 2.800" COAL. Now I might try upping the dose and do three rounds each of 42.6 - 42.9 to see where that takes me. I would bet that I would get the velocity, and lets hope the accuracy.

 

[ED_RN]

Re: Fed GMM 175 gr and LC M118 L R 175 Powder Data

First off it is a fools errand to think you know what powder is being used. It is not available to you, period end of story! And, the best advice is chrono FGM and then duplicate the velocity in your gun using your componets.

ATK owns Federal so I doubt seriously that a non canister version of 4064 is being used now, more like non canister grade of RL 15.

And BHA uses Hornady 168 OTM not the SMK in their 308 load.

Never ceases to me how cheap som people are, with Chrony being prety inexpensive it would serve a fellow well, rather then guessing!

 

[eodsix]

Re: Fed GMM 175 gr and LC M118 L R 175 Powder Data

Chronograph is already inbound. I've reloaded match grade ammo for over 20 years now and only lately have I seen the need for one. 3 inch groups at 800 are common for me. Owned a Rem M24 with the M3A scope for 13 years and up until now I've been satisfied to use Kentucky windage or +/- click adjustments to compensate for the slight error in the bullet impact as opposed to the BDC setting. I want to rectify that.

Lake City M118LR and Federal Gold Medal Match both use Sierra Match King 175gr bullet. I didn't ask about Black Hill ammo. Hornady TAP uses the 168gr too. I asked a simple question Fed GGM 175 and M118LR you don't have run me down because I don't know.

It's not a fools errand to find out. It is common knowledge that WC750 was being used in the Lake City M118LR when it first came out. I have other knowledge that IMR 4350 is what Federal has used in the GMM but I was asking if there was any CURRENT information. Even if the powder in not commercially available I'd still like know and I'm sure that it isn't classified SECRET. Well Federal might consider it a trade secret for the GMM but Lake City would have to have information available to the public for the M118LR in the form of a data specification sheet. Knowing what IS being used in these two rounds would eliminate some of the guess work and give me something I could closely SIMULATE not DUPLICATE.

 

[Roscoe_M4]

Re: Fed GMM 175 gr and LC M118 L R 175 Powder Data

FWIW, I heard four or five years back that Lake City was switching to RE-15 as the standard for M118LR. I looked briefly for my small arms data sheets that do list the powders to be used for varoius catridges, but haven't located those yet.

Basically, what the arsenal does on a large scale is just what reloaders do - they develop test loads for a given lot of powder until they reach the velocity specified for that particular cartridge. Once the proper load is established, an entire lot is loaded with that particular charge weight, which can vary by each lot of ammunition.

As best as I can recall the M118LR spec was about 2,580 fps at 88' from the muzzle using a starting load of around 41.5 - 42.0 gr of RE-15 under the 175 gr SMK. Other 7.62mm ball ammo used a ball powder such as WCC844 and tracers used a hotter burning stick powder. I'll repost if I find the data sheets.

My two favorite 308 sticks, a 12 year old 700P (26" rebarreled by GAP in 2003) and a GAP custom (24" Schneider P5 built in 2005) both like 42.5 gr of RE-15 over FGMM primers in LC03LR brass with 175 SMKs as an M118LR clone. This gives a MV of about 2,640 fps.

My best FGM 175 clone is 44.1 gr of Varget over BR-2 primers and Lapua brass with 175 SMKs. I haven't loaded any FGM brass with 175s (only 168s) but this load matches FGM velocity in my sticks and it did shoot a 198-7X at 1K with the 700P and a bipod.

 

[eodsix]

Re: Fed GMM 175 gr and LC M118 L R 175 Powder Data

Well I heard that about Lake City and RL-15 as well, for some reason I was thinking I read somewhere that the M118LR had a MV of 2600 to 2650 FPS. Maybe I heard wrong. Guess I need to go back and look for that too. My first RL-15 arrives by mail today, so I'll be giving that a shot.

I used to have a 700P and was really pleased with it.

 

[eodsix]

Re: Fed GMM 175 gr and LC M118 L R 175 Powder Data

Well gents, I commend you on your info. The 43.5gr of Reloader 15 has yielded the exact same results from my Rem M24 as Lake City M118LR at least out to 300 meters. I have test fired it at 100, 200 and 300 meters thus far and I'm very pleased. Half inch groups at 100m, 1" groups at 200m and 1 3/4" groups at 300m. I plan on getting to a longer range next week to push the envelope out to 700m.

BTW, the muzzle velocity of 43.5gr of RL-15 2645fps
Muzzle velocity of the M118LR I have on hand 2645fps
Muzzle velocity of the Fed GMM 175gr BTHP I have 2645fps
at 400ft above sea level at 50 degrees temp from a Remington M24 with a 24" barrel.

 

[Seekers]

Re: Fed GMM 175 gr and LC M118 L R 175 Powder Data

Nice going.

 

[SFC RHYNO]

I'm late to the party I know but this may help some folks. I pulled this off my Redstone account at work. And before you ask, no I can't get MK262. Even to the Army the info is unknown. It gives all the info you already know, under the propellant and charge weight it says unknown. Hope this answer some questions.