First .22 setup (try #2)

[vaughngoalie35]

Ok, well i tried to get a savage, but I couldnt due to money, but im on my second try! I was going to get the savage mk2 tr, with a bsa 4x24 scope, and i was wondering, how much would a regular cz cost? would it be worth the money? Which model would you suggest?
Thanks guys

 

[Dylan in AZ]

Re: First .22 setup (try #2)

I bought the TR and honestly, unless you're getting a great deal on it, it's not worth it. I could have had a 452-V (superior action IMHO) for less money. The Tacticool stock is 'ok' at best. It's inexpensive, and shouldn't be depended upon to last much past light duty. As always, you get what you pay for

The best prices on new CZ's that i've found so far hae been through Bud's Guns

Here's a link to their CZ Rimfire page.

Free shipping to your FFL is always a plus too!

IMHO, you really can't go wrong with CZ. Don't plan on getting a response if you e-mail CZ USA though... Anyways, if you're dead set on a Savage, I highly suggest buying a less expensive model and putting a stock of your own choosing on it. You'll end up saving a bit of money going this way.

As far as which CZ models I would suggest; it really depends on what you're using it for. Of course the general practice here is to assume that you're wanting to build a trainer, so most likely the 452-Varmint will be best for you. However, if you want a squirrel rifle, silhouette rifle, benchrest rifle, 3 Position rifle, mini-palma rifle, tomato stake, or back scratcher you might want to look at a different model

It has everything to do with your purpose.

 

[vaughngoalie35]

Re: First .22 setup (try #2)

wow thank you for your quick response! I am heavily thinking about a cz, but still not sure. Whats better on the cz? hows the triger? Ok, there seems to be a few different types...

Ok, this gun will be my first gun I personaly own, as the rest of my shooting is through my dads. I am going to mostly use it for shooting targets, just improving my technique, abilities, tightening groups, seeing my limits, and other things like that. Mosty at 50-100 yards, but I will want to venture past that eventually. Also maybe some hunting later.

So whats the real differences between the American, Lux, Varmit, and other types?

 

[Dylan in AZ]

Re: First .22 setup (try #2)

Well, I grow tired of typing the pro's and con's of each rifle as I've done it a few times now in detail. You can probably find my own writing on them both by running a search. I'm not trying to be a dick, I just don't feel like typing it all again.

For your purpose, just about anything will do. I will suggest that you give the 452 Varmint a good hard look and consideration though.

I suppose that means I should answer your question on the differences between models though, so here goes nothing!

First off, there are three different action types, and while all are similar, they are also all different of course. There is the 452, the 453, the 513, and the newest is a 455. 452 is the model everyone loves so much, so it's natural that CZ is trying to phase it out with the 455

These are the two models to look at; the 513 is a bare bones 452 as far as anyone can tell, and the 453 is a slightly differnt 452. If you wish to know more, look into them through the search function. Again, not trying to be a dick...

Anyways, the American is a skinny barreled 452/455 with the straight comb styled stock of the 452 Varmint. The Lux is a longer skinney barreled version (24" IIRC) of the 452 with a curved comb. Not an ideal stock, but that's subject to the user's preferences. There's an Ultra Lux which has the same everything as the Lux, besides an even longer barrel. The Lux and Ultra Lux both have very nice open sights that can be easily adapted to aperture should you wish to do that. Side note, those ar the 452 models, the 455 models that have open sights are of lower quality. And lastly( of the models you asked of, but not of all models available), the Varmint is the only model to have a heavy barrel. And it has the same stock as the American's.

I would usually type loads more but i'm feeling sluggish tonight. I hope this all helped, good luck!

 

[Alderleet]

Re: First .22 setup (try #2)

Well, if you're looking, I know Impact Guns *actual store* has a CZ 452 american (threaded muzzle) on the shelf. If you're building a trainer, and want to put a can on it, that would be the model I'd pick

 

[bunsen27]

Re: First .22 setup (try #2)

I'll pick up a bit where Terror left off and help you with searching out a few CZ 452 Varmint threads:


CZ 452 Snipers Hide Google Search Results

My CZ 452 Varmint

Before purchasing mine up I had the fortune to handle a few Savage's and the CZ. Nothing against the Savage's but I went with the CZ because of the fit and finish. It looks very much like a centerfire rifle and not a rimfire to me.

Aesthetics aside I've been EXTREMELY pleased with it's accuracy. It's served me well in the Conover TSC monthly matches and is still bone stock from the factory. I'm too afraid to mess with and screw up a good shooting rifle.

I'm heading back to Pa next week for some shooting at the farm and am more excited about stretching the CZ out to 300yds and possible 400yds than I am about ringing steal with my DPMS-308. Be careful this rimfire "thing" can quickly become an addiction!

 

[longguntoter]

Re: First .22 setup (try #2)

Your going to spend more on the CZ than the Savage, but both would do a good job in .22LR. A guy I work with has a CZ and I a Savage MkII, and I can shoot certain ammo better than he can and he can shoot certain ammo better than I can. I would call it even myself. I'll tell you one thing though, my Savage will shoot CCI Stingers like a house on fire.

 

[725franky]

Re: First .22 setup (try #2)

If your just looking for accuracy and usability, either CZ or Savage will do just fine. If your going for more refined looks, go with the CZ; which, has better fit and finish. If your looking to save some money and not skimp on accuracy, go with the Savage.
Having owned both, I wouldn't hesitate to buy either brand again.

I just sold my CZ452 American in a Boyds Tacticool (with a Karsten cheek rest) to my brother. I am going to use the fund from that to re-stock my Savage MKII BV.

Both of my examples shot better than I can.

 

[VYD]

Re: First .22 setup (try #2)

Both Savage and CZ are more accurate than you are. Personal preference. But while arguing the price difference between the two, you need to think about a good scope and high quality rings/mount. Take that into an account. Leave BSA for bb-guns...

 

[2guard]

Re: First .22 setup (try #2)

I would buy a cheaper variation of the mk2 and upgrade your glass choice a bit from the bsa. Look at the savage bv and save the money over the tr and buy a better scope. The bv is about $100 cheaper and has the metal trigger guard and bottom metal if you want to upgrade to the tacticool stock later. The bv stock is actually not bad, but if you want a tacticool stock on the cheap, check boyds often until they offer one in the crazydeals section as a second.
On the scope, ditch the bsa completely. If you want a cheap-ish scope look at the mueller apt 4.5-14x40, or watch for a good deal on a used scope. and +1 on what VYD said about rings and base. You could get by with the factory bases on the savage (although an standard egw 0moa or 20moa would be better), but get some decent rings. Some like the burris sig zee rings, I like the warne maxima for rimfire (and I have had them on centerfire without issues also).
Should get you setup for around $500.
Don't be scared to buy a used rifle either, I picked up a savage btv off gunbroker for $240 shipped. after transfer/background check I had $270 in it, sold the stock for $80. I added this richards stock I had, painted it black, and added 1/8" bottom metal and a 30moa rail (not in pic). I have aboput $370 in it without glass. It is an older pre-e receiver, but shoots about .5moa at 50. I keep it as a loaner for my friends and shoot it occasionally. Right now it is idle, because I am looking for a deal on some new glass for it.
before

after

Just don't get sucked in to the tactical look as a selling point. You would be better off buying some good glass and match ammo and a slightly cheaper model. The bv still offers a laminate stock that has a raised monte carlo cheekpiece, and the bm and trigger guard if you want to upgrade the stock later. If you end up liking the bv stock, I would spend the upgrade money on a rifle basix trigger over the tacticool stock, big improvement over the accutrigger in my opinion. It will probably shrink your groups more than anything else, other than trigger time. Please look scopes other than the bsa, I would hate for you to spend your money on it and then it crap out and you had to buy another scope.

 

[vaughngoalie35]

Re: First .22 setup (try #2)

I understand terror, thanks for the great imput tho!

I have since my post done a bit of reasearch, and I have gathered that
1. I will probly get the varmit, as I like the flater stock for bag shooting, and I believe it is free floating (good right?)
2. I am probly looking at the 452, and adding the brooks trigger, as its cheap, and I hear its good.
3. I am not set on a scope, but I was recomended this scope by someone on this forum...It seemed to have everything I wanted, mil dot, target turrets, lifetime warranty

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=962234

I understand and agree with you get what you pay for, especialy with glass. But It just doesnt always justify the price for me, If price wasnt an issue, i would by buying something like a anschutz to begin with...

My budget is around 150, and if you have any suggestions for me, I greatly appreciate your feedback.

2guard I admit, I was very caught up in the tactical look, but I have changed my mindset quite abit, after looking into the cz's.

Well thanks everybody for the imput! I am very happy with all this helpful information so far!

 

[bunsen27]

Re: First .22 setup (try #2)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ATP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">3. I am not set on a scope, but I was recomended this scope by someone on this forum...It seemed to have everything I wanted, mil dot, target turrets, lifetime warranty

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=962234

I understand and agree with you get what you pay for, especialy with glass. But It just doesnt always justify the price for me, If price wasnt an issue, i would by buying something like a anschutz to begin with...

My budget is around 150, and if you have any suggestions for me, I greatly appreciate your feedback. </div></div>

Personally I'd buy this before the BSA:

http://swfa.com/Vortex-6-24x50-Crossfire-Rifle-Scope-P43585.aspx

Yes, the Crossfire line has had quality issues, but Vortex stands behind it and will repair or replace it with their outstanding CS and lifetime warranty.

Oh and put in a set of Burris Z rings with the inserts.

 

[Captramrod01]

Re: First .22 setup (try #2)

ATP glad to see your on the right track. You will be very happy with that CZ.

I have this on a CZ 455 in 22 mag. http://swfa.com/Vortex-2-7x32-Viper-Rifle-Scope-P11227.aspx I personally think its the best glass you can get for under 150.

 

[vaughngoalie35]

Re: First .22 setup (try #2)

ok. I see that the vortex crossfire is an opption, but I really dont want to replace scopes like crazy, It would not be worth it to send them in till I get a good one. And The crossfire just doesnt have some of the pluses the bsa has, like tarrget turrets (main feature for me) and side focus...
with the viper, I really dont like the redicle, as mil dot is very important for me..
I will definatly take more time before I jump into anything, but Im just alittle wearry about the vortex, as theirs such a high amount of lemons (I know im also dealing with bsa, but I was told this was their highest model)

 

[bunsen27]

Re: First .22 setup (try #2)

The Crossfire does have target (extended) turrets, they just aren't exposed like the BSA. As for "swapping scopes like crazy" I think you're reading a bit too much into the reviews. Vortex has a very solid CS reputation and are typically quite quick in resolving any issues within days/weeks not weeks/months. If you want to send Scott an email or PM with your questions/concerns:

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showprofile&User=35249

If you can budget a little more for a scope Cameraland has a nice deal on a Viper close out model that might suit your needs and is a significant step up from the Crossfire line:

Viper 6.5-20x44 V-Plex Wide

 

[vaughngoalie35]

Re: First .22 setup (try #2)

I appreciate your info! I will give them a very good look...I would get

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=384146

if I got a vortex, but im still not sure, as the bsa from the same website has very good reviews and seems to be the most popular one there,

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=962234

I am just weary about a crossfire, because I cant rely on cs alone

I know you guys have more experiance than me, but I would look into the bsa before regecting it as an option (your options are very important to me, as I dont have a place to use any of this stuff)

Thanks you guys your a great help!

 

[2guard]

Re: First .22 setup (try #2)

I would be more worried about replacing the bsa multiple times than I would a vortex. A lot of good reviews on midway doesnt always mean anything. If you plan on racking the knobs a lot going from 50-200, the majority of the reviews over there mean nothing. Most just zero the scope once and shoot it and dont test the repeatability of it like the guys on here do. Not saying it will be garbage (you might get a good one), but I think there is just as much chance (if not more)of getting a bad bsa as there is a bad vortex at this price point.
Also, be prepared for a darker view at the high magnification ranges (i'd say anything over 16x) on these low priced scopes, and also clarity will suffer. I would check out lower magnification scopes with better quality, as anything over 20x will probably be hard to use, especially at distances over 100. High magnification is only good if the glass can support it. Be patient and look for used scopes too. Don't rush out and buy something you will want to upgrade in a month. I know you want to get out and shoot, but I see guys at the range everytime I go struggling with issues on cheap scopes.
I would buy the mueller apt over the crossfire and the bsa (even though I think vortex has some of the best cs out there). The mueller has a lifetime warranty, target turrets, usuable magnification, and lots of great reviews on multiple sites. Most places have them for $170 shipped. After that I would go for the crossfire from swfa mentioned above. But, I would rather save another $100 and get something from the $250 range, preferably used. There are quite a few good scopes around that money with better glass and reputation, etc.

Good luck with your decision.

 

[belus]

Re: First .22 setup (try #2)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Alderleet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, if you're looking, I know Impact Guns *actual store* has a CZ 452 american (threaded muzzle) on the shelf. If you're building a trainer, and want to put a can on it, that would be the model I'd pick</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ATP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I understand terror, thanks for the great imput tho!

I have since my post done a bit of reasearch, and I have gathered that
1. I will probly get the varmit, as I like the flater stock for bag shooting, and I believe it is free floating (good right?)
2. I am probly looking at the 452, and adding the brooks trigger, as its cheap, and I hear its good.</div></div>

I just made this decision and ended up purchasing the 452 American with the 16" barrel. The Varmint does not have a free floating barrel and in fact has an action screw on the barrel. The American is the only model I've read that does not have this screw on the barrel and instead has two screws into the receiver. The American's barrel may not be free floating when I get it, but I think it will bed a lot easier than other models.

I think there's more accuracy potential in the longer barreled Americans, but I didn't want to bother finding a the most constrictive spot in the bore and having the barrel cut.

edit:
I'm putting this scope on it with a 25moa DIP rail:
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=456482
It has been on sale twice in the past year for $250.

http://www.diproductsinc.com/products.aspx?CAT=3600

 

[vaughngoalie35]

Re: First .22 setup (try #2)

thats a very good point, I am sure now that you guys here know your stuff better than most..I dont think Im rushing, as the soonest I can get this gun is about a month or so, I am trying to plan this out before going to far into it. I do not think im going to add a supressor, or atleast in the next few years, so I think I will stick with the varmit. Oh thanks for the free float info, Im not sure where I got that from haha, and I have no idea what bedding is, and how to do it/is it necisarry...And thank you for the dip mounts site, I will also need a rail, and I have heard good things about this place.

I have another question, I have been shooting my air rifle for the past few years, and it has a very nice 2 stage trigger, and I like it. Now I know the 452 has some creep, and Im not sure what that means, Is it like a 2 stage, where the trigger moves before the "real trigger pull" is? And what is the set trigger? is it a two stage?

thank you for all of my probly stupid questions!
Austin

 

[bunsen27]

Re: First .22 setup (try #2)

My 452 varmit is a quasi-2 stage trigger only because it has so much creep. It's so bad that it's actually "good".

I believe the weight is 4.5lbs. I mostly shoot AR's so 4.5lbs is not very heavy to me, but for those accustomed to sub 2 lbs triggers on bolt guns it would likely feel horrible. There are several options out there to upgrade the 452 trigger:

Rifle Basix
Yo Dave Kit
Variation of PMTJ

IIRC it is the 453 or 455 trigger that is a set single stage trigger.

 

[belus]

Re: First .22 setup (try #2)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ATP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh thanks for the free float info, Im not sure where I got that from haha, and I have no idea what bedding is, and how to do it/is it necisarry...

And what is the set trigger? is it a two stage?</div></div>

A free floated barrel can be an advantage because the stock won't apply pressure to the barrel. This pressure is liable to change with different conditions (humidity swelling the wood stock, or the barrel heating up for example). It's possible to float the Varmint barrel but it leaves you with only one screw holding the stock to the action.

Bedding is a way of getting consistent and solid contact between the stock and receiver so things don't shift during recoil. It's a way to ensure a free floated barrel stays that way. There's a great sticky in the Gunsmithing section showing how it's done.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1167022#Post1167022

A set trigger gives you the option of two different trigger pulls and is available on the 453 (maybe the 455 too). You can pull the trigger normally, or you can "set" it by pushing the trigger forward. Once set, the trigger is more crisp and also lighter. This video does a good job of showing it in action:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aamu-PAS91Y&t=0m50s
(I didn't want this option so I opted for the 452.)

edit: noticed you liked the Varmint for the stock. I believe the American has the same stock style, the only difference being the width of the barrel channel.

 

[vaughngoalie35]

Re: First .22 setup (try #2)

Ok well that explains alot, and now I understand what bedding does for a gun, but I do not think I will look into that any time soon. I dont think I will want that trigger either, and will probly settle for the 452. I think I will get just the gun, and look into triggers later, as I have heard some people say they dont mind the trigger, some hate them.

Ok 2guard mentioned the mueller apt, and I was trying to figure out which one, is this the kind you had in mind?

http://swfa.com/Mueller-45-14x40-All-Purpose-Tactical-30mm-Riflescope-P44586.aspx

That seems the best one so far.

 

[2guard]

Re: First .22 setup (try #2)

Yes, that's the apt. I think in the long run you will be more pleased with the apt over the bsa. And if you want to sell it, they seem to be retaining good value used ($150-160 shipped on used ones I have seen). I don't know if swfa has free shipping on them or not, but you can check Joeboboutfitters if they don't. I have ordered from both, and they are good to go. If you are getting the cz or savage, joebobs has upgrades for both, might save some on shipping if you get the scope from there along with a rail and trigger kit:
http://www.joeboboutfitters.com/category_s/8285.htm