So i’m trying to make my final decision on caliber of a new rifle build. I think i’ve Narrowed it down to 6mm. I’m between the creed and Dasher. So my thought on the creed is I can buy brass and i’m ready to get going, if I go dasher I either need to fire form or hydro form which is fine but I really want to know is the dasher going to be less recoil and better choice for shooting matches? So creed or Dasher what would be your choice and if you’ve shot both which did you like better.
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PRS Talk First PRS Rifle build 6mm Dasher or Creedmoor? Need Help
- Thread starter Bl0407
- Start date
On the Creed, if you get in a bind, you can get factory ammo.
I was in a recent predicament when deciding what cartridge to transition from 6.5mm (260 Rem) to a 6mm variant. I was looking at the 6BRA or 6mm Creedmoor. Factory Hornady Match ammo was available and really good; plus knowing factory Berger Ammo in 6mm creedmoor using Lapua Brass would be available soon. That helps for reloading later and made my mind up. It's all about availability.
Look at the current top 15 in PRS:
1. Dasher
2. Dasher
3. BR
4. BRA
5. Dasher
6. BRA
7. Dasher
8. BRX
9. Creedmoor
10. ?
11. Dasher
12. ?
13. Dasher/BR
14. BRA
15. Creedmoor
I think Dasher is going to be more consistent for you. Creedmoor is going to have you swapping barrels in 1000-1200 rounds where the Dasher should go closer to 2000. If you don’t have time to load, easy decision. But if you plan on loading your own and want the most competitive caliber, go dasher / BRA.
1. Dasher
2. Dasher
3. BR
4. BRA
5. Dasher
6. BRA
7. Dasher
8. BRX
9. Creedmoor
10. ?
11. Dasher
12. ?
13. Dasher/BR
14. BRA
15. Creedmoor
I think Dasher is going to be more consistent for you. Creedmoor is going to have you swapping barrels in 1000-1200 rounds where the Dasher should go closer to 2000. If you don’t have time to load, easy decision. But if you plan on loading your own and want the most competitive caliber, go dasher / BRA.
My rig is a Deviant tactical, MPA Comp, Atlas, 26" Bartlein 7 (6 Dasher and 6.5 CM), and APA LB (6 and 6.5). Without a doubt the 6 Dasher is less recoil/easier to shoot with a rear bag which is saying something since the 6.5 is already easy to shoot. However, using a tripod the difference goes way down.
I hydroform with the Whidden. I use distilled water rather than alcohol as some do, and I keep the o-ring lubed. I go through a lot of o-rings! The plunger is also pretty much shot after 300 cases so keeping an extra one of those on hand is also a must, and the brass fitting on mine is about done as well. I finish the fire forming with 28.5 of RL15 behind a 110 SMK at 2.385 OAL. Always sub 1/2 MOA during fire forming and I have yet to split a case during fire forming although I have split 2 during the hydroforming. I have also had a few rounds that needed some force on the bolt to close the first firing which could be a problem if you are fire forming during a match. In truth the hydroforming is a pain in the ass but I have done 707 cases and don't regret it.
I hydroform with the Whidden. I use distilled water rather than alcohol as some do, and I keep the o-ring lubed. I go through a lot of o-rings! The plunger is also pretty much shot after 300 cases so keeping an extra one of those on hand is also a must, and the brass fitting on mine is about done as well. I finish the fire forming with 28.5 of RL15 behind a 110 SMK at 2.385 OAL. Always sub 1/2 MOA during fire forming and I have yet to split a case during fire forming although I have split 2 during the hydroforming. I have also had a few rounds that needed some force on the bolt to close the first firing which could be a problem if you are fire forming during a match. In truth the hydroforming is a pain in the ass but I have done 707 cases and don't regret it.
I would choose the Creedmoor for a number of reasons. No need for magazine kits, no fireforming, no stressing finding every piece of brass, you can use factory ammo if in a pinch, and if you wanted less recoil just download it to Dasher velocities. Recoil with the match rifles and loads will be almost identical anyways and not enough difference to mess with the shooter.
That lists above would not change much with caliber changes. Everyone just likes to chase the latest. Pick one and shoot it and practice. Practice will do much more for your scores than choosing between two 6mm cartridges that have both won many matches.
That lists above would not change much with caliber changes. Everyone just likes to chase the latest. Pick one and shoot it and practice. Practice will do much more for your scores than choosing between two 6mm cartridges that have both won many matches.
This. I know #4and have trained and competed (I'm not much competition) with him and learned a lot. One thing I learned, is in that list caliber is a matter of preference. Sure, there's some advantages and I may decide on a dasher or BRA next year but in that lineup you're still going through barrels and components due to the volume of training and matches. Btw, many train with a separate .223. Just more info to chew on.
I'm on barrel #5 in 6 Creedmoor with #6 ready to go. Every single one I have replaced has still been a .5 or better gun with no loss in velocity, and the earliest I have pulled a barrel was ~1850 rounds. I've got 2 north of 2k with no issues, and my current barrel is pushing 1500 with no issues. Unless you're one of the people trying to push 110-115s at 3100+ or 105-108s right up to the PRS speed limit, 6 Creed barrels can easily go 2k rounds.
I'll also add that I was in the top 20 earlier in the season, and I am still inside the top 40, and I have no problems being competitive with a 6 Creedmoor.
Until this season, I was running 105 RDFs or Hybrids and 108 ELDs at anywhere from 3060-3125 in 26" Bartleins, depending on the exact node and lot of powder. The current barrel liked them a little slower, so it's 3030-3060. Running them closer to the speed limit really doesn't gain me anything worthwhile in performance, so I just shoot them where they like to be. That 3030-3060 node has given me multiple groups in the .2s, even out at distance, and really consistent single digit SDs, so I am not complaining.
Yup there is no reason to hot rod them. The whole short barrel life attached to the cartridge came from that when it came out and people trying to get right to 3200. I am shooting factory ammo with the 108s at 3020fps and it does great. When I load for it I plan on keeping them in the same place.
But sometimes they are. They are never needed with a Creedmoor.
I don’t use a BR based round either and I’m inside the top 20 currently. Completely agree that you can be competitive with many calibers. I’d still rather have dasher over a 6 creed tho lol.
I shoot a 6x47, but also have shot 6 BR and 6.5 creed and a tiny bit of 6 brx. I run the 47 pretty mild, right around 3000 FPS with a 105. It’s a super strong case and at that speed the cases appear as if they will last forever.
That said I’m switching over to dasher next season. MDTs BR mags work well and you can get great hydroformed brass, and I hear someone is going to have native brass available soon. Better barrel life and consistency with even less recoil. Yes please!
The accuracy nodes are fat, less recoil, less barrel wear / more consistency, typically easier to get tighter SDs and vertical at distance. Plus if I only want to go 2950-3000 FPS, why use a massive case?
I'll say this - I've never had issues finding nice fat nodes (usually .5-.6gr wide) or with good vertical at distance on any of my 6 Creeds, and the only time I have changed load mid barrel is when I have changed bullets (the sole exception was an oddball lot of H4350 that I had to go up .2 on). I've also never had issues with finding something that ran single digit SDs - and all of this is now across 5 barrels. Hell, I went through 3.5 barrels (~7k rounds) running the exact same load in every single barrel. The slowest I have run from a 26" has been ~3020-3040 (just where the node fell, and I ran with it)m but the norm for me has been somewhere in the range of 3060 to 3120, depending on the exact bullet and barrel, and lot of H4350 I've been running.
A lot of money to be dishing out chasing a caliber to get the same performance.
It helps when you pick up free barrel & chamber jobs from the prize table lol.
Seems like the 6 creed guys are sure representing in here! I shoot Dasher and have been for a while. Just ordered another blank to get the next barrel ready. If you are starting from scratch, I'd go Dasher hands down. Factory ammo is something that's always thrown out there and if you dont plan on reloading by all means dont pick Dasher. The fireforming/hydroforming isnt that big of a deal and if it is to you just buy some already done. MDT BR mags work great and I've also ran my dasher with AW mags unmodified in both a Mausingfield and TL3. I read a lot on accurateshooter and that's what made me go Dasher several years ago, it's also the reason I have a straight 284. They've dominated F-class for a reason.
It’s getting close to a draw. I bet the OP is like wtf hahahaha.
Well a lot of good point and I went to a match on Saturday and pretty much a draw there as well. I’m going to go 6 CM on the first barrel to get me feet wet as the hydro forming sounds fun but time spent doing that is time away from doing other things. So first barrel is going to be a CM. The good thing is you can always change barrels... thanks guys...
I shoot a 6 creed and 6BR. I'll be sticking to the BR cases due to recent results at matches. Fatter accuracy nodes than the 6 creed. No tweaking of the node needed from barrel speeding up or lands eroding. I use 10 grains less powder in my BR vs the creed for 150 fps difference which equates to like .2 mils at 1000 for wind. Just not worth the recoil and barrel life and consistency penalty. If I were to offer advice to a new shooter it would be to build a BRA or Dasher for PRS, unless they don't reload. The BR cases you literally don't even really need to do load development they will all shoot in the .3-.5 range or less. Just test for vertical at 800-1000 and pick the tightest vertical.
Gotta love those little BR cases. Shoot sooooo good. Give me a 105 Hybrid around 2850-2950 any day of the week.
When you send rounds out past 1k yards and are shooting diamond targets, it's so nice to have a waterline that can hit all the way out to the edge points of the target without going over/under.
When you send rounds out past 1k yards and are shooting diamond targets, it's so nice to have a waterline that can hit all the way out to the edge points of the target without going over/under.
I think it's funny how people seem to think the BR family is the only thing that can give tight waterlines, low SDs, and consistent performance across the life of a barrel. I guess I've been lucky... 5 times in a row.
just for data....my last 6creed barrel i loaded the exact same load from round 1 til right before i pulled it, all components same lot as day 1...i didnt change powder charge, jump, etc...never did a load work or changed anything
velocity tracked as below
rounds 1 thru 125 - 2950fps sped up to 3020fps
rounds 125-725 - 3020fps
rounds 725-750 (pre Brawl)- 3000fps
rounds 950-975 (post Brawl) - 2960fps
adding 0.5 grain more powder brought it back up to 3000 fps, and i shot 1 club match with it there
i pulled the barrel w/ just over 1100 rounds to have it set back just enough to recut the throat (.100"-.200"), and going to shoot the same load as day 1 again...if its like other barrels we've done in the past, i bet the velocity goes right back to 3020ish
velocity tracked as below
rounds 1 thru 125 - 2950fps sped up to 3020fps
rounds 125-725 - 3020fps
rounds 725-750 (pre Brawl)- 3000fps
rounds 950-975 (post Brawl) - 2960fps
adding 0.5 grain more powder brought it back up to 3000 fps, and i shot 1 club match with it there
i pulled the barrel w/ just over 1100 rounds to have it set back just enough to recut the throat (.100"-.200"), and going to shoot the same load as day 1 again...if its like other barrels we've done in the past, i bet the velocity goes right back to 3020ish
I'm surprised you had slow down that early, honestly, especially at those speeds. I've seen 60FPS swings on changing lots of powder, but you said everything was the same lot. I'm north of 1400 on my current barrel with the same combo without issues. The barrel I ran last year I switched from 105 Hybrids to 108s at 1k rounds, and it was still hammering with no speed change at ~1900 when I pulled it at the end of the season.
Another data point, from my last Dasher barrel.
Last summer at 1100 rounds I changed lots of Varget and tested velocity, 32.4 grains gave 2931fps 105 hybrids 26" barrel. It's now at 1750 rounds and still shooting extremely well at 2929fps with the exact same load and components. I've got other barrels I'm shooting (different contours) but I keep putting that one on and shooting club matches with it and it never fails to perform and hasn't lost any velocity.
Last summer at 1100 rounds I changed lots of Varget and tested velocity, 32.4 grains gave 2931fps 105 hybrids 26" barrel. It's now at 1750 rounds and still shooting extremely well at 2929fps with the exact same load and components. I've got other barrels I'm shooting (different contours) but I keep putting that one on and shooting club matches with it and it never fails to perform and hasn't lost any velocity.
It's not the only case to give tight waterlines and low SDs. But it's one of the few 6mm cases that will give you all that without changing your load at all over the entire life of the barrel. My BR started at 2903 fps within the first 100-150 rounds. It's not at 1750 rounds and its at 2909 fps (probably because it's hotter now outside). Show me a creedmoor barrel that is that stable and I'll shoot creedmoor again. I've been through 3 creedmoor barrels and they jump all over the place after every 2 day match it seems in line with what Morgan showed. My creed load is a 105 at 3079fps so nothing crazy.
Again if you're happy with the creed that's great. I'm happy with mine as well for what it is. I think it makes a great deer round. If you have the time to constantly tweak loads or have a range in your back yard I'm sure you can be very successful with them as some obviously are. The BR is simply a more inherently forgiving and accurate round than a creedmoor. I think there's more than a few people here that would agree (those that have owned both as I do). Changing nodes or velocities right before a match is just one less thing bugging me in the back of my mind before a match.
my only guess is its always so hot/humid down here in south tx it kills barrels fast lol i know the Brawl had some 15 and 20 round stages so that didnt help at all
i never even practiced with that 6mm barrel, so that was pretty much 100% match use except for confirming zero and dope prior to matches (15-20 rounds each time)
150ish rounds before the '18 finale
'18 finale
3 or 4 club matches
'19 Brawl
I'll reiterate what I said earlier in the thread - I went through 3.5 barrels running the exact same load (105 Hybrid or RDF, 42.2gr H4350, 2.82" COAL, Hornady brass) without ever having to tweak anything Single digit SDs are the norm (I might have seen double digits 3-4 times through all of those barrels), as were tight waterlines at distance, and I never chased a damn thing. I had one barrel that at 2k rounds was jumping 105s .1" (Yes, seriously) and it was still shooting .5s and single digit SDs. After 3.5 barrels of that crap I got tired of chasing 105s (Edit: As in availability, not performance) and switched to 108s. Barrel #5 has been shooting the same load since day 1 (I tweaked seating depth at one point for giggles, but it made no difference in performance), and it's at ~1500 rounds. My next barrel (#6) has 90 down the pipe and is sitting on the shelf as a hot spare, and that barrel gave me identical performance to #5 with the same load.
I get that there are people that have had to chase loads on 6 Creed - but trying to make it out to be the norm, that 6 Creed can't be consistent, etc. isn't true. I know several people that have had identical experiences with 6 Creed to what I have had, including barrels routinely going 2k rounds before going south.
Maybe GAP is rubbing in some magic unicorn dust or something, but I've damn sure never had issues with consistency in my 6 Creeds, and I am fast approaching 10k rounds of it through my various barrels.
I'm in FL, so hot and humid isn't the (only) issue. Could always just have been an unlucky barrel.
nah, my last 2 dropped around 1000 also, one was like 900 and the other was 1100...i was shooting different powders and loads in them tho so i didnt have as strict of a timeline for when it happened
not any of the 6s...ive done it on 6.5 creeds, 223s, and a 22 creed tho
6.5 went from 2790 to 2750 around 1500 rounds, then held @ 2750 for a while...at 2200 it was at 2700
223 went from 2850 to 2800...finally took it off after a lot of rounds and it was @ 2700 fps
22 creed started around 3400 and ended up at 3200...i didnt keep a good count on this one cause it was just for messing around and it got shot fast and hard sometimes between 2-3 shooters...it dropped that 200 fps over 6-700 rounds
on a couple different 6.5s we tried cleaning, jb bore paste, etc...they all shot well still, but nothing brought the speed back until we set them back .100" and recut the throat area...speed went right back to where it was prior to the drop on both of them
6.5 went from 2790 to 2750 around 1500 rounds, then held @ 2750 for a while...at 2200 it was at 2700
223 went from 2850 to 2800...finally took it off after a lot of rounds and it was @ 2700 fps
22 creed started around 3400 and ended up at 3200...i didnt keep a good count on this one cause it was just for messing around and it got shot fast and hard sometimes between 2-3 shooters...it dropped that 200 fps over 6-700 rounds
on a couple different 6.5s we tried cleaning, jb bore paste, etc...they all shot well still, but nothing brought the speed back until we set them back .100" and recut the throat area...speed went right back to where it was prior to the drop on both of them
What barrel blanks do you use because they surely must be made out of better steel than my bartliens. I’m only getting around 1400 rounds barrel life and constantly dropping charge weights like very 3-400 rounds
Do you notice your barrels speeding up a bunch? Mine increase about 130 FPS from virgin to when velocity finally drops off
I've run Bartleins exclusively in my 6 Creeds. First barrel was a 24" GAP #3 (I think) and everything since has been a 26" GAP #6. I get all of them through GA Precision since they do all my barrel work.
My 26" guns all sped up over the first 100 rounds, then stayed pretty much steady until I pulled them. I can't guarantee there was no loss along the way, though, as I have yet to go through an entire barrel without at least 1 lot change of H4350 along the way.
When do you pull your barrel for a set back? A specific amount of speed loss? Or just when you feel it’s time based on the barrel?
And have to agree it’s something down here. Have had two 6cm burn out at ~1100 rnds. Only using factory hornady 108 around 3025 and the fire cracking was so bad a set back didn’t help. Been scratching my head trying to figure out how people are getting 1500-2k on a barrel.
Hoping the next few are at least able to be set back. I didn’t clean much if at all for the past couple. Going to do some mild cleaning after matches and see if that helps a bit.
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