PRS Talk First PRS Rifle build 6mm Dasher or Creedmoor? Need Help

[Hollywood 6mm]

When do you pull your barrel for a set back? A specific amount of speed loss? Or just when you feel it’s time based on the barrel?

And have to agree it’s something down here. Have had two 6cm burn out at ~1100 rnds. Only using factory hornady 108 around 3025 and the fire cracking was so bad a set back didn’t help. Been scratching my head trying to figure out how people are getting 1500-2k on a barrel.

Hoping the next few are at least able to be set back. I didn’t clean much if at all for the past couple. Going to do some mild cleaning after matches and see if that helps a bit.

I can't see how conditions there are much different than where I am. Altus is 140ft physical, hot as shit all summer and humid most of the year. We do get fairly cool to cold in the winter, though, but I don't think it's any different for most of Texas.
Edit: I'll add that my current one is the first to be cleaned regularly, as it actually starts to foul out after ~300 rounds. Previous barrels would be cleaned every 500-700 rounds when I chickened out before a match.

 

[morganlamprecht]

just from my experiences in Florida and TX...florida aint the same heat lol idk what the differences are, but florida has been more pleasant every time ive been when coming from south tx...maybe its just me, idk

cleaning/not cleaning hasnt made a noticable difference for me as far as speed goes...ive done barrels where i didnt clean them for 4-500 rounds and a buddy suspected thats why they were dropping off fast...he told me his cleaning schedule, products and all, and i followed it...speed still dropped in a similar round count

as far as pulling them, i wont take a one thats dropped velocity to a big match that im counting on if i can help it...i wouldnt have taken that one to the brawl if i hadnt already had 300 rounds loaded up for it, and didnt check it til the week of the match when it was too late to mess with switching...it was still shooting ragged holes and i knew RO would only have 1-2 stages that went out past 800 so i wasnt too worried...i didnt take it to Silent Night a few weeks later tho...not sure id be paying to set them back either...the one i recently pulled was still shooting 1/2 moa easily, but id rather shoot 6.5 creed anyways so i pulled it and gave it to my smith to cut it again and see what it does...more for data than anything

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

just from my experiences in Florida and TX...florida aint the same heat lol idk what the differences are, but florida has been more pleasant every time ive been when coming from south tx...maybe its just me, idk

cleaning/not cleaning hasnt made a noticable difference for me as far as speed goes...ive done barrels where i didnt clean them for 4-500 rounds and a buddy suspected thats why they were dropping off fast...he told me his cleaning schedule, products and all, and i followed it...speed still dropped in a similar round count

as far as pulling them, i wont take a one thats dropped velocity to a big match that im counting on if i can help it...i wouldnt have taken that one to the brawl if i hadnt already had 300 rounds loaded up for it, and didnt check it til the week of the match when it was too late to mess with switching...it was still shooting ragged holes and i knew RO would only have 1-2 stages that went out past 800 so i wasnt too worried...i didnt take it to Silent Night a few weeks later tho...not sure id be paying to set them back either...the one i recently pulled was still shooting 1/2 moa easily, but id rather shoot 6.5 creed anyways so i pulled it and gave it to my smith to cut it again and see what it does...more for data than anything

Have you ever been out here in the middle of the summer, though? The AI and Fall matches are usually nice, but it gets pretty damn bad in the summer. Highs in the upper 90s to low 100s with heat index 10-15 drgrees higher is pretty common.

 

[morganlamprecht]

yea but im not just talkin about summer for a couple months...we shoot year round

its hot and humid here from feb til november lol i been back and forth to both quite a bit, FL aint ever felt warmer to me

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

yea but im not just talkin about summer for a couple months...we shoot year round

its hot and humid here from feb til november lol i been back and forth to both quite a bit, FL aint ever felt warmer to me

It's no different here for shooting year round. We start to warm up in February and start to get hot a few days at a time around April or so, then cooling down in mid to late October. Everything in between stays pretty damn toasty.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Have you ever been out here in the middle of the summer, though? The AI and Fall matches are usually nice, but it gets pretty damn bad in the summer. Highs in the upper 90s to low 100s with heat index 10-15 drgrees higher is pretty common.

I can’t speak for where you are, but the other day down here, I set the rifle on mat while I set up a target at 100yds.

When I got back, I grabbed the barrel and damn near burned my hand. Hadn’t put any rounds through it at all.

I have zero knowledge if that can do anything positive or negative with barrel.

I do know that thus far I have heard if zero guys that shoot our club matches that are getting 1500-2k on a 6cm barrel before velocity falls off.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

I can’t speak for where you are, but the other day down here, I set the rifle on mat while I set up a target at 100yds.

When I got back, I grabbed the barrel and damn near burned my hand. Hadn’t put any rounds through it at all.

I have zero knowledge if that can do anything positive or negative with barrel.

I do know that thus far I have heard if zero guys that shoot our club matches that are getting 1500-2k on a 6cm barrel before velocity falls off.

Is your barrel cerakoted or anything, or just plain stainless?

 

[Dthomas3523]

Is your barrel cerakoted or anything, or just plain stainless?

Stainless. Burn them up too quickly to worry with cerakote.

I’m sure that’s part of it. And it might only be hot to the touch on the surface. But down here things get hot fast. I could barely touch my tripod after a few min in the sun.

None of this could matter, or it could.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

Stainless. Burn them up too quickly to worry with cerakote.

I’m sure that’s part of it. And it might only be hot to the touch on the surface. But down here things get hot fast. I could barely touch my tripod after a few min in the sun.

None of this could matter, or it could.

Same here with no cerakote (only my 24" barrel on my first 6 Creed got that one), but I can't think of any time I have ever had a barrel get too hot to touch from sitting in the sun for a short period of time. Darker objects like tripod legs, sure, but not semi-shiny stainless barrels.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Same here with no cerakote (only my 24" barrel on my first 6 Creed got that one), but I can't think of any time I have ever had a barrel get too hot to touch from sitting in the sun for a short period of time. Darker objects like tripod legs, sure, but not semi-shiny stainless barrels.

Not sure what it is about down here, but it gets stupid hot. I have a cover for rifle, gonna have to start using it again.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

Not sure what it is about down here, but it gets stupid hot. I have a cover for rifle, gonna have to start using it again.

I've had them get that hot after laying out in the sun for a bit (can't really say how long, tho), just not in a few short minutes.

 

[lovdasnow]

i have had a lot of creed barrels, and a ton of dasher barrels. for the prs/nrl game as it is now the dasher(or other br case variants) is the clear winner in my book after a lot of shooting of 6x47, 6xc, 6 creed, .243, 6 SLR, and a couple other 6's....

 

[Yoteski]

6 dasher or other variant of the BR. Tried 6 creed, ran it moderate, and still chased loads every 300-400 rounds. Someone on here once made the truest statement about the dasher I can think of, " You can pour 32 grains of dogshit in a dasher case and get sub moa groups."

 

[RollTide14]

Dasher is definitely more consistent, but you do not have the availability of factory ammo like you have with the creedmoor. I bought hydroformed brass for my dasher simply because I did not want to deal with fire forming and burning 500 rounds down a barrel. Got my brass from hunts long range. Either choice is a good option in the 6mm game.

 

[kthomas]

Same here with no cerakote (only my 24" barrel on my first 6 Creed got that one), but I can't think of any time I have ever had a barrel get too hot to touch from sitting in the sun for a short period of time. Darker objects like tripod legs, sure, but not semi-shiny stainless barrels.

Try shooting in the AZ summer - doesn't take long at all. Barrels get stupid hot without even touching a round off, and it's hopeless to try and cool them down with any sort of barrel cooling device.

 

[LawnMM]

Try shooting in the AZ summer - doesn't take long at all. Barrels get stupid hot without even touching a round off, and it's hopeless to try and cool them down with any sort of barrel cooling device.

All kidding aside, go to Walmart in the camping section. Like $5 for a 'chillipad' or whatever it's called, looks like a blue shamwow.

It works by wetting it and as air evaporates the moisture it cools the little chilli cloth. I mulligan'ed a 12 round stage, went from 3 pts to 7, but burned about 24rds in 4 minutes at the Craig NRL match.

It was in the high 90s all weekend and I legit burned my hand on the barrel when I went to pick it up after finishing the stage. Couple minutes with that cloth draped over the barrel and it was cool to the touch, no bullshit.

 

[rlsmith1]

Love my 6 Creed. It has factory ammo available and gets me to 1200 or 1400. Planing to reload some DTACs to stretch it further.

 

[Wheres-Waldo]

You guys have me sweating with starting off with a Creedmoor.

There has been speculation that the go to powder (H4350) may be just as much of a culprit for marginal barrel life, considering guys running Creedmoors at Dasher speeds are still getting shorter barrel life.

I plan on choosing whatever node is nearest 3K FPS and shoot the piss out of it.

Question - If your barrel is speeding up after 150 rounds, does that push you out of a node?
My first ~ 100 rounds will be load development. Seems pointless to do development if the barrel will just speed up and require more load development.

Suggestions?

 

[generalzip]

You guys have me sweating with starting off with a Creedmoor.

There has been speculation that the go to powder (H4350) may be just as much of a culprit for marginal barrel life, considering guys running Creedmoors at Dasher speeds are still getting shorter barrel life.

I plan on choosing whatever node is nearest 3K FPS and shoot the piss out of it.

Question - If your barrel is speeding up after 150 rounds, does that push you out of a node?
My first ~ 100 rounds will be load development. Seems pointless to do development if the barrel will just speed up and require more load development.

Suggestions?

Yes it will likely push you out of the node. You’ll need to adjust your charge down. I don’t do load development until I have about 150 rounds on a barrel. If you’re using quality barrels bullets and brass your gun won’t be capable of shooting less than 3/4” most likely.

 

[morganlamprecht]

Yea, I load up a random safe charge and go shoot a club match with it then recheck speeds and start lookin into work up

 

[Gossett6MM]

Step 1
-Have barrel chambered in dasher
Step 2
-Fireform cases in barrel and train with them at 100 yds because FF loads hammer. Barrel is now broken in.
Step 3
-put 31.70 grains of h4895 in case with a 105 hybrid. Load development won't be necessary.

Save yourself the trouble of any in-consistency

 

[Wheres-Waldo]

Step 3
-put 31.70 grains of h4895 in case with a 105 hybrid. Load development won't be necessary.

Save yourself the trouble of any in-consistency

 

[Gossett6MM]

I don't get it

 

[Dthomas3523]

What reamer specs are most using for lapaua
Dasher with 105 hybrid?

 

[Gossett6MM]

.104 fb with .272 nk

I had jgs make me one at .115 fb and a .273 neck and it works great.

 

[DisplacedTexan]

Currently shooting a 6 Creed and will only go Dasher for Norma or Alpha brass that is supposedly on its way. If the alpha brass isn't ready by the time this barrel dies, I'll continue with 6 Creed.

FWIW I'm getting a 2.2 SD and 6ES with Peterson LRP brass and RL16. imo, RL16 is the key to low SDs, Dasher or Creed, it doesn't matter.

I like the BC of the heavy 6mm so I run 110 SMKs with no interest in running the 105s. That's part of the reason I haven't run any of the other BR variants as they are too small to get a 110 over 2900 without pressure.

My buddies Norma Dasher ran the 110 at 2970 with a 2.4SD with 5 grains less powder per case, and this is the only reason I have considered switching to the Dasher.

 

[DisplacedTexan]

All kidding aside, go to Walmart in the camping section. Like $5 for a 'chillipad' or whatever it's called, looks like a blue shamwow.

It works by wetting it and as air evaporates the moisture it cools the little chilli cloth. I mulligan'ed a 12 round stage, went from 3 pts to 7, but burned about 24rds in 4 minutes at the Craig NRL match.

It was in the high 90s all weekend and I legit burned my hand on the barrel when I went to pick it up after finishing the stage. Couple minutes with that cloth draped over the barrel and it was cool to the touch, no bullshit.

Sounds like the Mile High Shootout...

 

[Dthomas3523]

Well, this thread helped me make up my mind and maybe the OP can do the same.

Gonna run both. 6cm and keep factory Berger and hornady ammo on hand. In case components are hard to find or I’m in a pinch and don’t have timez

Dasher for everything else. I was gonna go with 6xc, but with the availability of hydroformed dasher brass, have changed plans.

I’ve also head way more than enough reports of 2k+ rnds on a dasher barrel pretty easily.

 

[lukejr985]

Not to poo poo on Dasher at all because the results speak for themselves, but if you want to hit the the stupid easy button go straight BR with a one to two inch longer barrel. Your velocity will be in the high 28s low 29s, and unless your picky there is zero load development. Plus last year I ran 3000 plus rounds through mine with no accuracy changes and little to no speed loss. just throwing it out there,

 

[morganlamprecht]

Not to poo poo on Dasher at all because the results speak for themselves, but if you want to hit the the stupid easy button go straight BR with a one to two inch longer barrel. Your velocity will be in the high 28s low 29s, and unless your picky there is zero load development. Plus last year I ran 3000 plus rounds through mine with no accuracy changes and little to no speed loss. just throwing it out there,

me and buddy have a 6br reamer on order right now with this very same reasoning

 

[Yoteski]

Not to poo poo on Dasher at all because the results speak for themselves, but if you want to hit the the stupid easy button go straight BR with a one to two inch longer barrel. Your velocity will be in the high 28s low 29s, and unless your picky there is zero load development. Plus last year I ran 3000 plus rounds through mine with no accuracy changes and little to no speed loss. just throwing it out there,

I think this is a very good option range dependent. If you're shooting more square ranges inside 800 yards the straight BR is probably perfect. Shooting out west with a little more wind, distance, and changing conditions I'd go to a dasher.

 

[lukejr985]

I think this is a very good option range dependent. If you're shooting more square ranges inside 800 yards the straight BR is probably perfect. Shooting out west with a little more wind, distance, and changing conditions I'd go to a dasher.

Before last year Id tend to agree with you but plug it into your ballistic solver, the results may surprise you, that extra 100 fps doesnt really buy you a whole lot.

 

[lukejr985]

me and buddy have a 6br reamer on order right now with this very same reasoning

The first match i shot with mine last year i ran at 2820, and was within a tenth of windage of the dashers all match at KM, ive since changed to hybrids at anywhere between 2850-2890 and it straight hammers. Im definitely not losing matches because the cartridge is holding me back. day in day out consistency, no tuning, just shooting.

 

[morganlamprecht]

yup, the velocity doesnt do much in the calculator or when it comes to the score board

couple years ago i ran 115s @ 2650 for about 6 months just to prove a point lol

 

[kthomas]

Jake Vibbert runs a BR variant at really low velocities - I believe in the 2700's for FPS.

He seems to do pretty well with that. His argument is that the slower velocity helps with being able to more effectively see bullet trace, which can be a huge advantage.

A 6BR is fine. Most stages in pretty much any PRS event is shot within 600 yards.

 

[generalzip]

I run a 28" straight BR. 2910fps and excellent brass life no pressure issues FWIW. It is stupid accurate and recoil is nothing. That said I'm building a BRA next. Easy fireforming and I've found you're pretty much breaking in the barrel with fireforming 3-400 pieces of brass anyway. Plan to run the BRA in the realm of 2930-2950 with a 27" barrel.

 

[Tunnuh]

yup, the velocity doesnt do much in the calculator or when it comes to the score board

couple years ago i ran 115s @ 2650 for about 6 months just to prove a point lol

Any issues seeing impacts beyond 1k? I went with the 6 creedmoor for ammo availability because I've been stupid busy, but the barrel life is one of the worst. I see there's lapua 6br ammo and that's a good thing imo. Interested in hearing your thoughts.

 

[generalzip]

Jake Vibbert runs a BR variant at really low velocities - I believe in the 2700's for FPS.

He seems to do pretty well with that. His argument is that the slower velocity helps with being able to more effectively see bullet trace, which can be a huge advantage.

A 6BR is fine. Most stages in pretty much any PRS event is shot within 600 yards.

The difference between 2900 and 2700 fps with a hybrid at 500 yards is 0.6 vs 0.648 seconds time of flight... Don't think you're really going to tell much of a difference but who knows. At 400 yards it's 0.465 vs 0.5 seconds. Anything much past 500 is generally a improvised prone or prone shot so watching trace is really a non-issue regardless of 6mm/6.5 caliber choice.

 

[generalzip]

Any issues seeing impacts beyond 1k? I went with the 6 creedmoor for ammo availability because I've been stupid busy, but the barrel life is one of the worst. I see there's lapua 6br ammo and that's a good thing imo. Interested in hearing your thoughts.

Mo and I shoot in South Texas. Spotting impacts past 1k with just about any caliber in the summer on a non fresh target is really tough in the mirage. Part of the reason they require T1000s on the prone targets now. In the winter/early mornings it's much easier to spot. That said, I can def tell the difference between a 105 hybrid at 2900 vs a DTAC at 3080 when it hits steel. That extra mass makes a bit more of a puff. For competing though, I wouldn't let it sway my decision one way or the other. I'll give up the risky 2 points I may lose on long range stages for the 6 points I'll pick up on positional stages because I can spot my shots easier with a low recoiling BR and it makes a silver dollar group on a plate.

 

[Tunnuh]

Mo and I shoot in South Texas. Spotting impacts past 1k with just about any caliber in the summer on a non fresh target is really tough in the mirage. Part of the reason they require T1000s on the prone targets now. In the winter/early mornings it's much easier to spot. That said, I can def tell the difference between a 105 hybrid at 2900 vs a DTAC at 3080 when it hits steel. That extra mass makes a bit more of a puff. For competing though, I wouldn't let it sway my decision one way or the other. I'll give up the risky 2 points I may lose on long range stages for the 6 points I'll pick up on positional stages because I can spot my shots easier with a low recoiling BR and it makes a silver dollar group on a plate.

I know I saw lamprecht's name at the December 2018 txprc finale, but I didn't know anybody's caliber other than mine and a few other friends. I've also seen more hit indicators lately and that's pretty nice. Thanks for the info!

 

[kthomas]

The difference between 2900 and 2700 fps with a hybrid at 500 yards is 0.6 vs 0.648 seconds time of flight... Don't think you're really going to tell much of a difference but who knows. At 400 yards it's 0.465 vs 0.5 seconds. Anything much past 500 is generally a improvised prone or prone shot so watching trace is really a non-issue regardless of 6mm/6.5 caliber choice.

I personally can't attest to that, just going off of what I've heard JV say on podcasts and posts here.

I shoot a BRA pushing a 105 at ~2970 fps, so I'm obviously not following his philosophy haha. But I still believe that one could be competitive with a straight 6BR. I believe Joe Walls was shooting a 28" 6BR in recent PRS seasons.

 

[morganlamprecht]

Like zip said, seeing splash or spotting impacts largely depends on the target and the surrounding area when mirage gets bad enough

The only time I’ve ever struggled spotting anything really is in high mirage or grassy backstop, but that makes it tough for most calibers

I’ve also seen times when edge 6mm hits are easier to call than dead center 6.5/308 hits because of how the target is hung and reacts so it’s kinda a toss up to me

 

[Tunnuh]

All good info, much appreciated.

 

[Yoteski]

I like running the 105s between 2900 and 2950. Seems to be a happy spot for accuracy and barrel life. In the end I think we're splitting hairs on performance of the cartridge whether its BR, BRA, or Dasher. Any of the above will perform better than the shooter behind it, and do so with plenty of barrel life and a constant accuracy node. It all comes down to consistency, and any of the BR variants will have consistency throughout its usable barrel life.

 

[generalzip]

One thing to note is I think the dasher and even the BRA to a lesser extend feed better. I’ve gotten my BR to feed pretty damn well but it took some tuning. The longer case body of the dasher I think prevents the rounds from tipping and tilting in the mag which can lead to jams. All of them can run flawlessly but the longer cases seem to be less finicky

 

[lukejr985]

Never had any feeding issues at all with a straight BR but impact 737r and tuned mags from Tate might have something to do with it....

 

[generalzip]

Yup. Once you get a good mag mark it and never let it out of your sight haha.

 

[morganlamprecht]

Picked up the old 6 Creed barrel yesterday, set back .200”, basically wiped out the freebore...hit it with 100ish passes of JB bore paste

Gunna try to get out and shoot it with the old original load and check velocity/accuracy next week, hopefully


Some bore pics below...

At the end of the neck

Start of lands...

2-3” in front of the lands...

Halfway down the bore...

At the muzzle...

 

[generalzip]

Looks practically new

 

[morganlamprecht]

Looks practically new

Yea, doesn’t look bad at all...it was still sub 1/2 moa before setting it back, just down like 60 fps