I can shoot a five shot group and the first shot is always high. I can let my barrel cool and do another 5 shot group and the first shot is high. this happens consistently. any suggestions or ideas of what is going on would be greatly appreciated.
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first shot always high
- Thread starter Jason Yenko
- Start date
Do you have pictures of groups? Would be good to see if the high shot lands in the same general distance/angle from the center of the group every time.
Its a Savage model 11 action in .243 mated to a Criterion 1-7 twist MTU barrel threaded with a Little Bastard brake that's bolted up with a machined stainless barrel nut and a machined stainless .250 recoil lug bedded with Devcon into a Choate Machine stock. Timmney trigger set at 12ozs. and topped off with a NightForce ATACR 7-35x56. Weaver scope rail is also bedded to the action. Lapua brass, 41.5 grains of H4831, 115 Berger VLD Target bullet going 2779fps.
Another issue I have is crazy ES/SD numbers. ES like 127, 57, 42, 54, 35 and SD 46.5, 20.3, 18.0, 21.9, 14.5.
My reloading process is pretty spot on. Anneal after every firing, Short Action Customs sizing die, chamfer/debur, Creedmoor Sports TRX-925 scale, Bald Eagle competition primer seater, Wilson in-line seating die, 21st Century Hydro-Seating arbor press, 2thou neck tension.
Unfortunatly I dont have any pics of groups. Its always about an 3/4 to an inch high.
im not. i single feed using an Anarchy single feed sled. thanks for the reply.
id check if your barrel is hitting somewhere on the stock when it whips.
id also check torque on the choate. id bet its flexing a lot and only settles down when it heats up, expands. i thought people had a lot of trouble with them flexing when they came on some factory guns
Simple, Always aim 3/4" lower with your first shot.
SJC
SJC
just a suggestion...
shoot the first round at a different place on the target, then shoot your group and see what happens.
shoot the first round at a different place on the target, then shoot your group and see what happens.
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Those ES and SD’s are out of whack. Not saying that’s causing the issue, but I would try a different powder and or primer; not sure what primer you are using. Seating depth could also be playing into that. What annealer are you using? Are you over annealing?
Not to be a prick and if your ES and SD are that big, I wouldnt say your reloading is spot on.
Good gear. Good process. Something in there is amiss.
Pretty easy to get SDs in the mid single digits these days.
Esp with all that quality stuff.
Look at seating?
Over anneal or under?
I am able to get SDs 3-7 using a Lee press and old hornady dies and a mandrel……
And a basic torch annealing set up.
Do have some rcbs and one set of whidden dies too. Same results
what chrono you using?
Some are less reliable (AMHIK)
Good gear. Good process. Something in there is amiss.
Pretty easy to get SDs in the mid single digits these days.
Esp with all that quality stuff.
Look at seating?
Over anneal or under?
I am able to get SDs 3-7 using a Lee press and old hornady dies and a mandrel……
And a basic torch annealing set up.
Do have some rcbs and one set of whidden dies too. Same results
what chrono you using?
Some are less reliable (AMHIK)
Thanks for the suggestion. Ill give it a try. I rebedded my stock last night also. see if that helps. Maybe just get an MDT XRS stock for it.
Thanks for the reply.
The barrel has a solid 3/16" clearance around the entire barrel channel on the stock. Are you referring to the torque of the action to the stock bolts? Not sure of problems with Choate but it could be possible. I rebedded the action last night. Ill see what happens with that. Maybe just get an MDT XRS stock and give that a shot.
it's a cheaper barrel with more stress in the steel or something is causing enough change to its dimensions that while cold causes poi shift.
best thing is to measure how much it's off each time, if its repeatable youre in business. my clean cold bore on my savage 22 is always about .5mil low. really high quality cut rifled barrels don't generally have this problem.
those SD are just crazy, something is definitely up. what chrono?
best thing is to measure how much it's off each time, if its repeatable youre in business. my clean cold bore on my savage 22 is always about .5mil low. really high quality cut rifled barrels don't generally have this problem.
those SD are just crazy, something is definitely up. what chrono?
No worries. You're not being a prick. Heres my process and equipment:
Lapua and Nosler brass Berger 115gr VLDs CCI #34 primers. Used several different primers, including magnum, with no change
After shooting I tumble/clean brass.
anneal using BenchSource for 3.1 +/- seconds
deprime/resize using Short Action Customs .243 Modular Sizing die. Set shoulder back .002thou squeeze neck down and expand neck for .002thou diameter interference
If necessary trim. Chamfer and debur.
I then prime cases using a Bald Eagle Competition primer press/seater.
I then charge the cases with 41.5grains of H4831 i measure the charge using a Creedmoor Sports TRX-925 powder scale which weighs to the hunderth of a grain. I always trickle in the last few hundreths of a grain until spot on at 41.5.
After charging the cases I place my Berger 115gr VLDs upside down in .223 cases and give them a very light spray of Hornady One Shot case lube to smooth out seating.
I then seat my bullets using a Wilson in-line seating die and a 21st Century hydro seating arbor press and seating pressure is very consistent at 20lbs give or take a few pounds.
I then go shoot/chrono my rounds to get data using a MagnetoSpeed V3 chronograph.
I then get fucked up numbers, get all discouraged and pissed off...
Let me know what your thoughts are. You,re right about being able to get good numbers with all the good gear. Thats why im ready to rub poop in my hair. Ive done all kinds of things to try to figure it out. Im lost.
MagnetoSpeed V3. Ive confirmed the chrono next to one of the new Garmin chronographs as well.
ive done several seating depth tests. Thanks for the reply.
I would suggest not annealing or testing with new brass to see if the es/SD problems immediately clear up. you may have cooked some or all of your brass, I did this once.
also you didnt mention shoulder set back, any idea how much youre bumping the shoulder? best of luck
also you didnt mention shoulder set back, any idea how much youre bumping the shoulder? best of luck
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yeah they are.
Ive tried H100V, H4350, H4831SC, and H4831 all with same crazy numbers. Tried a few diffrent primers including magnum primers. Currently using CCI#34 primers. I use a BenchSource annealer at 3.1 seconds, just before theres any orange hue to the flame. Ive done several seating depth tests also.
Thanks for the reply and suggestions.
I anneal using a BenchSource annealer at 3.2 seconds. Just before there is an orange hue to the flame. Shoulder bump is .002thou. using a Short Action Customs Modular sizing die.
just so you know, annealing has as much if not more to do with temperature than time... 3.1 seconds literally tells us nothing.
3.1 seconds at 500 degrees will do nothing.
3.1 seconds at 600 may anneal a tiny bit.
3.1 at 700 may well do the job right.
3.1 at 800 has probably totally fucked all your brass and you'll be lucky to get 1 good firing from them.
i personally am too dumb to use flame annealers, found this out the hard way. good times.
Mixing brass?
You mentioned 2 brands.
Sort out and stick to Lapua to test.
Nosler brass can be pretty inconsistent.
Redo a load test with reg cup primers.
The 34 hardness may give odd strikes due to hardness.
Old Rem primers have good consistency.
I usually use Fed 210s.
And, as mentioned, sometimes a bargain barrel aint always good.
Known many of those to shoot awesome and sometimes crap happens.
IF I cant get a broken in barrel to shoot 0.5” groups (5 shots) consistently with lapua brass, good process as you have shown, and a good bullet, it is time for a new one.
Im not rich by any stretch, and my time and reloading components are valuable too.
You mentioned 2 brands.
Sort out and stick to Lapua to test.
Nosler brass can be pretty inconsistent.
Redo a load test with reg cup primers.
The 34 hardness may give odd strikes due to hardness.
Old Rem primers have good consistency.
I usually use Fed 210s.
And, as mentioned, sometimes a bargain barrel aint always good.
Known many of those to shoot awesome and sometimes crap happens.
IF I cant get a broken in barrel to shoot 0.5” groups (5 shots) consistently with lapua brass, good process as you have shown, and a good bullet, it is time for a new one.
Im not rich by any stretch, and my time and reloading components are valuable too.
ive set the time with Tempilaq indicating liquid.
Ive been suspicious of the barrel. I dont mix my brass. I keep them seperate and generally only run the Lapua. I started with the Nosler and was getting the crazy numbers and thats why I switched to the Lapua. However, after the switch, I had the same results. And I had no better luck using diffrent primers including magnum primers.
Thanks for your reply and the comprehensive suggestions.
Thanks for the suggestions and help Cody. I really appreciate it. Maybe Ill give Jim at Northland Shooter Supply a call. Thats where I purchased the barrel.
Well, all I can say is, with all the money you’ve spent on reloading equipment, supplies, and optics, the only obvious answer to all your problems is you built this rifle off a Savage action instead of a Bighorn Origin. 
.
.that shouldn't matter until he gets dirt or something into the bolt.Well, all I can say is, with all the money you’ve spent on reloading equipment, supplies, and optics, the only obvious answer to all your problems is you built this rifle off a Savage action instead of a Bighorn Origin.
It was a joke. I don’t actually think it matters at all.
It is always interesting to me when people have a considerable amount of money tied up in great quality gear, but don’t spend the money for a custom action. The base matters, although it’s not really the issue here. It hits me the same way when you see, often see, a guy on Texas 1000 yard challenge have $5000 or more wrapped up in a custom set up with a Harris bipod on the front and no proper rear bag; as if the gun will magically shoot through those deficiencies.
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Sounds like there's a lot of things going on here.
As to the first shot being high, I have a feeling that its the shooter. I don't think any other factor we are talking about here would only show up on the first shot of each group. I'm guessing that your position from the first shot to the next shots changes (even subtly), which is causing the difference. In other words, you get settled in after 1 shot and your group POI changes.
I think you should shoot a couple of groups where you break position every single shot. Shoot, get up, get back down behind the rifle, rebuild your position, shoot. Repeat.
What the above will do is see if it is in fact the shooter that's "settling" after the 1st shot.
As to the first shot being high, I have a feeling that its the shooter. I don't think any other factor we are talking about here would only show up on the first shot of each group. I'm guessing that your position from the first shot to the next shots changes (even subtly), which is causing the difference. In other words, you get settled in after 1 shot and your group POI changes.
I think you should shoot a couple of groups where you break position every single shot. Shoot, get up, get back down behind the rifle, rebuild your position, shoot. Repeat.
What the above will do is see if it is in fact the shooter that's "settling" after the 1st shot.
Cold Bore Shot I should have said includes the shooter too! @Jason Yenko Best advice yet right here.
Or a Terminus, ARC, BAT, Defiance, Surgeon, Kelblys, Impact Precision, Curtis Custom, or a classic ol trued and blueprinted Rem 700.Well, all I can say is, with all the money you’ve spent on reloading equipment, supplies, and optics, the only obvious answer to all your problems is you built this rifle off a Savage action instead of a Bighorn Origin.
about 15 years ago, prior to building this rifle out of this action when it was all "stock," I had developed a load, for coyote hunting, with Hornady 58gr Vmax bullets using IMR4064 powder and random brass. The load I developed would consistently shoot hole in hole groups at a 100 yards. It was by far the most impressive load/shooting i ever did. It was a laser hammer out to 500 yards. I could consistently hit a 3" target I had set up at 490 yards. This was just a "for fun" project. My trued and blueprinted Remington 700 300wm shoots in the high 2s low 3s at a hundred and My Christianen Classic II performs the same.
Thanks for the reply and laughs.
I knew what you were saying I got the joke.
This was just a side project to see what I could come up with and see how well I could get "budget" components to shoot. Especially considering how well it shot when it was in stock form.
But those crazy ES/SD numbers really threw me for a loop. I wasn't expecting single digits but I genuinely thought they would have been at least acceptable.
I knew what you were saying I got the joke.
This was just a side project to see what I could come up with and see how well I could get "budget" components to shoot. Especially considering how well it shot when it was in stock form.
But those crazy ES/SD numbers really threw me for a loop. I wasn't expecting single digits but I genuinely thought they would have been at least acceptable.
I get it. I have a Savage Hog 308 I’ve done a lot of load development with including Tubbs final finish and a Oryx stock trying to make a consistently 1.5 MOA gun a sub moa gun; to no avail. It’s a 1.25 moa gun with the right load. I’ve seriously considered putting a Criterion barrel on it, but in reality why should I? I should just put it back in the Savage plastic stock, slap my old Leupold 3-9 compact on it, develop some 150 Nosler Ballistic top loads for it and use it within its design and performance parameters. I’ll leave the sub moa fun for my PVA barreled Origin and Solus.
Are you letting the barrel cool completely between groups? If yes, you can't guarantee that the barrel was stress relieved well, regardless if it is a brand with a decent reputation or not. Generally though, the top-tier barrels experience this far less.
Not saying that I've got it pinpointed at all. But if the only variable in all of this shooting is letting the barrel cool, I personally get a tad suspicious about a cold bore shift. That being said, I do own a Criterion in an AR and POI doesn't shift as it heats up.
If you are just letting it cool a bit then CBS isn't suspect, and I'd perhaps start to look at you specifically, and your rest setup. Maybe you have something settling down with that first shot, and then start the process over when you get up and reload, then address the rifle again.
Not saying that I've got it pinpointed at all. But if the only variable in all of this shooting is letting the barrel cool, I personally get a tad suspicious about a cold bore shift. That being said, I do own a Criterion in an AR and POI doesn't shift as it heats up.
If you are just letting it cool a bit then CBS isn't suspect, and I'd perhaps start to look at you specifically, and your rest setup. Maybe you have something settling down with that first shot, and then start the process over when you get up and reload, then address the rifle again.
I think if its a stress relief issue, the barrel would continue to walk as it heats up, rather than just settle after one shot.
However I'm not an expert on this, but I'll tag one in @Frank Green
How many rounds on the action? Might try a new firing pin spring. It's a long shot but you should not be getting SD like that with those components. Could also be a shit barrel.
Possibly, especially if it were really done incorrectly. Probably more likely closer to the factory barrels that have a tendency to have that first shot out of the group a bit.
I've got a factory Savage that is .2 mils to the 2 o'clock on that first shot (completely cold bore). Since it is a hunting rifle, it's zeroed with that in mind.
About 800 rounds now. However I've had crazy ES/SD numbers from the beginning.
I contacted James Kessler from Northland Shooters Supply and he put me in contact with Michael Ross at Criterion. Michael is sending me a return shipping label so I can get the barrel to him for inspection/replacement.
Thanks for the reply and the tip on the spring
Didn’t read all the responses but I had a savage in 338 Lapua (110 BA) that consistently through the first shot 1 moa high or low I can’t remember. Would stack the rest. Frustrating to say the least. Hope the new barrel works out for you. I put a Shilen select match on mine and the problem went away. So it wasn’t a action issue anyways
That brings up a question I[ve been wondering about. I talked to the guys at PVA and they allowed that the actions was about 10% and the barrel 90%. Ok.
Given that, what percentage advantage would a custom action give over the stainless Remington they trued for my 6.5 CM. I didnt have a long action so went with a CdG for the 7 PRC build. Why? Inquiring minds want to know.
I don't believe the action has anything to do with the accuracy if everything is functioning properly.
an untrued rem700 could be just as capable of benchrest grade precision as a BAT.
but why pour that kind of money into a crappy action?
rem700 wasn't a great example as that's an acceptable action..
savage. they're capable of great precision when you stick a krieger or Barty on them.
the action comes into play mainly for feeding and extraction, but also plays a role during bedding, mounting, holding the magazine or whatever.
different designs have definite benefits to feeding from certain magazines, but any normal design I've seen could do the trick for single feeding bench rest at least.
an untrued rem700 could be just as capable of benchrest grade precision as a BAT.
but why pour that kind of money into a crappy action?
rem700 wasn't a great example as that's an acceptable action..
savage. they're capable of great precision when you stick a krieger or Barty on them.
the action comes into play mainly for feeding and extraction, but also plays a role during bedding, mounting, holding the magazine or whatever.
different designs have definite benefits to feeding from certain magazines, but any normal design I've seen could do the trick for single feeding bench rest at least.
Also a custom action opens up the world of shouldered prefit barrels. It tends to be more ridged, many have integral rails and recoil lugs. They come with side bolt releases and upgraded bolts. Most are also coated.
Ok, I see the advantages of the custom action, but that leads to another question. If the CdG is a really good action for $899 then what would I gain by spending nearly twice as much for a different custom action. I see some for around $1600...what would one gain? Seems a point of diminishing return.
Might have already been suggested (thread is getting long) ... but I'd also check the scope base and it's connection to the pic-rail. The high first shot could be the scope base backing up on the recoil, and the follow-on shots take advantage of that. Grasping at straws here. Tons of suggestions above, but little that would explain why the first shot is always high, and everything else is spot-on. Can't see how things like annealing and bullet seating and (blah blah blah) would only impact the first shot, but not the rest. You've got a head-scratcher there ...
Only you can determine the value preposition, If you try them it would help you decide. I personally like the Impact and I like the smooth action the integral rail and such. Again it something only you can decide, Many like the CdG, I almost went to the Tenacity Zeus for my last one due to the ease of use with the Quick change barrel, In the end I went back with the 737 as it just works.
I liked the CDG so much I sold my AXMC to fund a new toy.
I know that's only anecdotal and I'm basing that off specs and my other arc actions.
I may sound like a bit of a fanboy, but arc makes the finest actions in the world imo.
plus I'm a big fan of that inertial ejector.
also I'm just guessing here but I predict that the cdg will go up in price relatively soon.
I know that's only anecdotal and I'm basing that off specs and my other arc actions.
I may sound like a bit of a fanboy, but arc makes the finest actions in the world imo.
plus I'm a big fan of that inertial ejector.
also I'm just guessing here but I predict that the cdg will go up in price relatively soon.
