For the Love of God, GI Joe and John Wayne.... cleaning and abrasive cleaners

[Dawhit]

Been using a concoction of 2/1 Hoppes/ Free All, works pretty well on carbon, disclaimer, I brush a lot and soak for several days when possible.
All pictures are on the same groove just in front of the end of the chamber. Barrel is a 6 PPC Bartlein with 8-900 shots.
Barrel after a thorough cleaning with solvents and Rem 40 X before putting up for winter.

After 28 shots recently, couple wet patches of H/FA, then 25 passes with a bronze brush immediately after firing the last shot at the range, then a 24hr soak.

Wet patches of Montana Extreme Copper Killer followed by 25 brush strokes and a 15 minute soak.

Decided to try a 24hr soak with the Copper Killer after brushing, same regimen as before but 24hr soak.

Finally did another Hoppes/Free All brush and 24hr soak.

The last session didn’t pull much more carbon but the first patch was definitely dirty. Going to try this routine for this upcoming season. The Copper Killer seems to do a better job than BT Eliminator but the Eliminator is old. Montana Extreme Copper Killer will knock your socks off when you open it!

 

[tekmann2377]

If you really want to remove copper chemically (instead of with abrasives) the most effective remover I have found is Barnes CR-10. I have a tried a few other products, including Sweets 7.62, and it by far works the fastest and most thoroughly. It smells horrible, and shouldn't be left in the bore long term, but it will strip every last bit of copper out of the bore. It also seems to dissolve carbon to some degree as well, although it is not advertised to do so.

 

[ToddM]

Take this with a giant bag of salt, but for giggles I emailed Hoppe's (who turns out is owned by Bushnell) and asked their tech group about the changes to their formula over time and if it was still safe to leave in barrels long term as a protectant.

The first response I got was a bit odd, indicated the formula has not changed in as long as they could remember, but it turned out they thought I was referring to their oil product.

When I clarified that I meant the #9 bore cleaner the response was that it should never be left on any surface for too long, instead it should be removed and their oil should be used.

Now perhaps this Hoppe's tech support person had no idea what they were talking about, perhaps they just wanted to encourage someone to buy their oil and use more product who knows. However, considering the formula changes in 2019, and the fact someone else posted they could no longer find an ingredient that seemed to be a rust preventative in the current formula, it might not be a great idea to continue the old practice of leaving it barrels long term, at least if your #9 is newer than 2019.

 

[WeR0206]

Take this with a giant bag of salt, but for giggles I emailed Hoppe's (who turns out is owned by Bushnell) and asked their tech group about the changes to their formula over time and if it was still safe to leave in barrels long term as a protectant.

The first response I got was a bit odd, indicated the formula has not changed in as long as they could remember, but it turned out they thought I was referring to their oil product.

When I clarified that I meant the #9 bore cleaner the response was that it should never be left on any surface for too long, instead it should be removed and their oil should be used.

Now perhaps this Hoppe's tech support person had no idea what they were talking about, perhaps they just wanted to encourage someone to buy their oil and use more product who knows. However, considering the formula changes in 2019, and the fact someone else posted they could no longer find an ingredient that seemed to be a rust preventative in the current formula, it might not be a great idea to continue the old practice of leaving it barrels long term, at least if your #9 is newer than 2019.

Pretty messed up for them to change the product that much (2016 version: 9 ingredients, 2019 version: 16 ingredients with major swap ins and outs between them) without even putting a "new and improved formula" label on it or anything.

 

[6.5SH]

Pretty messed up for them to change the product that much (2016 version: 9 ingredients, 2019 version: 16 ingredients with major swap ins and outs between them) without even putting a "new and improved formula" label on it or anything.

Probably up to Hoppe's #15 at least.

 

[Holliday]

Pretty messed up for them to change the product that much (2016 version: 9 ingredients, 2019 version: 16 ingredients with major swap ins and outs between them) without even putting a "new and improved formula" label on it or anything.

One thing that really seems to be taking a beating in the past 5 years is consumer protection. Used to be companies wouldn’t dare pull half the shit they pull now. Seems like it really went south with the fake pandemic….

 

[ToddM]

Yep companies got away with and are still getting away with tons of stuff now pretty much blame free because they convinced the world it was all covid's fault. Consumers as a whole just learned to accept and take high prices and poor QC/service and it's become the new standard. Don't get me wrong covid legitimately messed up a ton of industries for awhile, but it also gave a ton of companies a blame free path to reduce staff, cut corners, shrinkflate, and increase prices blame free. You won't find another 5 years in history that the S&P increased almost 3000 points, even if you don't count the initial covid drop 1000 point drop (it only took 8 months to recover that) it's still increased 2000+ points from pre-covid. Companies convinced the world they were the victim and down on their luck, meanwhile making record profits and their stock prices show it and in almost every case it's bad news for the consumer.

I just checked the I have about a 1/4 of a pint bottle left with a 2012 date on the label. I had bought another one last year, but given the new ingredients and info from Hoppe's I don't think I'll be doing my standard practice of leaving it in for long term storage after my old stuff is used up. I'll just do a barrel cleaning and use one of the protectant options. Esp. with what appear to be new carcinogens in the new formula (or at least the new MSDS sure is reporting more carcinogens, could be reporting requirements).

Many years ago I used to clean with wipe out, patch dry, and use Barricade as a final patch for storage. However I liked Frank's method I'd add in Rem 40x sometimes, making sure to get all that out and then leaving Hoppe's in long term so it would continue to clean and protect, and dry patching before a range trip. This new formula though it looks like I'll go back to using more of a protectant only in the barrel for long term.

 

[WeR0206]

Yep companies got away with and are still getting away with tons of stuff now pretty much blame free because they convinced the world it was all covid's fault. Consumers as a whole just learned to accept and take high prices and poor QC/service and it's become the new standard. Don't get me wrong covid legitimately messed up a ton of industries for awhile, but it also gave a ton of companies a blame free path to reduce staff, cut corners, shrinkflate, and increase prices blame free. You won't find another 5 years in history that the S&P increased almost 3000 points, even if you don't count the initial covid drop 1000 point drop (it only took 8 months to recover that) it's still increased 2000+ points from pre-covid. Companies convinced the world they were the victim and down on their luck, meanwhile making record profits and their stock prices show it and in almost every case it's bad news for the consumer.

I just checked the I have about a 1/4 of a pint bottle left with a 2012 date on the label. I had bought another one last year, but given the new ingredients and info from Hoppe's I don't think I'll be doing my standard practice of leaving it in for long term storage after my old stuff is used up. I'll just do a barrel cleaning and use one of the protectant options. Esp. with what appear to be new carcinogens in the new formula (or at least the new MSDS sure is reporting more carcinogens, could be reporting requirements).

Many years ago I used to clean with wipe out, patch dry, and use Rust Barrier as a final patch for storage. However I liked Frank's method I'd add in Rem 40x sometimes, making sure to get all that out and then leaving Hoppe's in long term so it would continue to clean and protect, and dry patching before a range trip. This new formula though it looks like I'll go back to using more of a protectant only in the barrel for long term.

Sounds like a good plan. If not sure if your solvent has a protectant or not just dry patch it when done with the solvent then run a light patch of mineral/paraffin/hoppe's/etc. oil down the bore then dry patch before shooting.

 

[Holliday]

Yep companies got away with and are still getting away with tons of stuff now pretty much blame free because they convinced the world it was all covid's fault. Consumers as a whole just learned to accept and take high prices and poor QC/service and it's become the new standard. Don't get me wrong covid legitimately messed up a ton of industries for awhile, but it also gave a ton of companies a blame free path to reduce staff, cut corners, shrinkflate, and increase prices blame free. You won't find another 5 years in history that the S&P increased almost 3000 points, even if you don't count the initial covid drop 1000 point drop (it only took 8 months to recover that) it's still increased 2000+ points from pre-covid. Companies convinced the world they were the victim and down on their luck, meanwhile making record profits and their stock prices show it and in almost every case it's bad news for the consumer.

I just checked the I have about a 1/4 of a pint bottle left with a 2012 date on the label. I had bought another one last year, but given the new ingredients and info from Hoppe's I don't think I'll be doing my standard practice of leaving it in for long term storage after my old stuff is used up. I'll just do a barrel cleaning and use one of the protectant options. Esp. with what appear to be new carcinogens in the new formula (or at least the new MSDS sure is reporting more carcinogens, could be reporting requirements).

Many years ago I used to clean with wipe out, patch dry, and use Rust Barrier as a final patch for storage. However I liked Frank's method I'd add in Rem 40x sometimes, making sure to get all that out and then leaving Hoppe's in long term so it would continue to clean and protect, and dry patching before a range trip. This new formula though it looks like I'll go back to using more of a protectant only in the barrel for long term.

I run a small business. I have never shipped faster or provided better service. That was my reaction to covid.

 

[Tokay444]

I run a small business. I have never shipped faster or provided better service. That was my reaction to covid.

You are the exception. not the rule. What business are you in? Would like to support it if it's something I already use/need/want.

 

[Holliday]

You are the exception. not the rule. What business are you in? Would like to support it if it's something I already use/need/want.

My customers say that to me. I tell them that in my world, that’s like thanking the frig for being cold. That’s just how it should be. I have a code on how a biz should treat its customer.

This is one reason I take such offense to the shenanigans I see in the gun industry. Why I go on and on about great American companies like Vortex and Seekins.

I have gone more and more incognito with my political/ gun stuff these days because of the viscous leftists and their “deep state”government. I can tell you that I’m in the motorcycle industry, 23 years now. Feel free to PM me for details.

 

[Max_The_Phoenix]

@Frank Green
Update:
I quit using the thoroclean for the last 2 cleaning and I clean every 100 rounds and make sure there is no carbon ring.
My barrel sped up to normal velocities
78.4grs og H1000 was 2880ish fps now its 2933fps with no pressure sign whatsoever.
Moral of the story: I suggest everyone not to get fooled with all those ads they see about best barrel cleaner.
I will stick to my boretech cleaners like old days.
Cheers
Max

 

[232593]

I've used it for heavy fowling, just to see how much it gets out... It works well and I haven't noticed any issues in the bore.

I tested both Chameleon gel and JBs & Kroil on a .375 CT HTI barrel and found that the JBs & Kroil combination works much better & faster.

 

[GBMaryland]

No doubt... the Chameleon gel seems to be made for mid-level fouling...

 

[Baron23]

I tested both Chameleon gel and JBs & Kroil on a .375 CT HTI barrel and found that the JBs & Kroil combination works much better & faster.

That's what I use it when I do use abrasives. I'm finding that if I stay on top of cleaning after a range session (and no, I don't really like cleaning guns...but, its a necessary chore) then I don't find myself using the abrasives very often at all.

 

[GBMaryland]

Just use a blow torch and burn it out…..

 

[Baron23]

Just use a blow torch and burn it out…..

Dude...you are an embarrassment to our former military service. Army has blow torches (yeah, they call them "flame throwers" but its a fucking torch...a J-79 in afterburner....now that's a flame thrower).

USAF uses napalm. So, get your head straight, Sgt. lol

 

[6.5SH]

Dude...you are an embarrassment to our former military service. Army has blow torches (yeah, they call them "flame throwers" but its a fucking torch...a J-79 in afterburner....now that's a flame thrower).

USAF uses napalm. So, get your head straight, Sgt. lol

View attachment 8610847

Instead of frog lube we are going to end up with fougasse bore cleaner

 

[carbonbased]

Hey @Frank Green I did a search and couldn’t come up with an answer given by you on how you clean a rimfire barrel.

With CF I just use your method and it works. Don’t know if rimfire is any different.

Second question: after using your CF cleaning process on a CF gun (or rimfire, I suppose), what do you think of not dry patching the bore before shooting? I guess there would be a bit of Hoppes in there.

I’ve read that the first bullet hydraulically pushing the liquid out is either bad, or not bad. Or that the heat/gas/pressure preceding the bullet pushes/evaporates/burns the liquid out before the bullet passes over it. Typical internet conjecture. I have no idea.

For people not named Frank Green (who already knows), gas apparently does exit before the bullet, btw. This vid shows slo-mo footage of a bunch of calibers exiting the bore. Don’t think they actually chrono’ed the bullets, but as a 204 lover, my totally unbiased analysis concludes that the 204 exit was the coolest


I did see you do this before shooting:

For the Love of God, GI Joe and John Wayne.... cleaning and abrasive cleaners

I always us a boreguide. I use VFG plain pellets w/ Bore Tech C4 followed by KG3 solvent degreaser. Finally a pellet w/ Montana X-Treme Bore Conditioner and 1 last dry pellet for any excess left behind. Once in a while I will throw the bore-tech copper remover in the mix. KG3 between all...

www.snipershide.com

 

[Frank Green]

I’d still shoot the bore dry before shooting. Especially the chamber. If the bore has oil/solvent in it…. Guaranteed fliers on the first rounds down it.

 

[carbonbased]

I’d still shoot the bore dry before shooting. Especially the chamber. If the bore has oil/solvent in it…. Guaranteed fliers on the first rounds down it.

If I, uh, am willing to waste some cash with a flyer, do you think there’s any damage to the bore if not dry patching? Not that I’d ever do that lol

I’m not talking about slathering the bore with sticky oil or something. Just that light coat/one pass of Hoppes.

Might be sorta impossible to know.

 

[ToddM]

I've read that one of the big reasons you don't want a lot of oil/solvent left on say an AR-15 bolt, or DI piston is that it ends up turning to heavy carbon deposits during firing. I wonder if the same would be true in the chamber/barrel if you left it wet with a solvent/oil.

I suppose it depends on exactly what is left in a barrel when left wet with hoppe's or whatever you are using etc. Not sure how much say #9 really leaves behind over time if you say wet patch and don't dry patch.

I'll admit I try to remember to dry patch, but there's been days I've gotten to the range and forgot to do it. I feel like that's the biggest "drawback" to me for leaving a barrel wet with oil/#9 etc. in storage, I can easily forget to dry patch it while loading up.

 

[mark5pt56]

I know I've done it multiple times with AR's. Stored muzzle down, lube migrates, I typically forget to swab out and the first couple of rounds will be slick with excess, never an issue. Yes, you should have a bore, chamber and bolt face free of fluids. On an AR15, you want lube on the lugs, body, cam pin path, gas rings and bolt exterior at contact points.
On the bolt guns I'm typically using Bore Tech, dry the bore from that, a couple passes with a CLP and patch it out. That possibly leaves a small amount, never had an issue other than maybe a slightly lower velocity on the first and second round. More of a bore condition and not a safety problem. I haven't done it but some may run a patch of alcohol, etc. prior to firing?

I do know that on the one V22, I have a very small spot on the bolt, not the cartridge face, the bolt face from Rimfire Blend. I patched it out but apparently not enough, at that frame my practice didn't include the clp patch and I guess the water base formula caused this.

 

[spife7980]

If I, uh, am willing to waste some cash with a flyer, do you think there’s any damage to the bore if not dry patching? Not that I’d ever do that lol

I’m not talking about slathering the bore with sticky oil or something. Just that light coat/one pass of Hoppes.

Might be sorta impossible to know.

Don’t leave pools of fluids in your bore just as a good practice. That light patch gets squeezed and excess is wrung out when it enters the throat with a proper tight fitting patch so that can leave some pools on the other side of the bore guide.
Let it sit too long as as it dries up it can turn to a goo. Run an oil patch and then patch out, it will leave a bit of a shine still (which may actually be all you were alluding to) for a lil protection that won’t hurt beyond the first shot being 60fps different but it also means you don’t have that hydraulic worry nagging at the back of mind.
Edited for clarity

 

[carbonbased]

so that can leave some pools in the otherwise of the bore guide.

“otherwise of the bore guide”?

Run an oil patch and then patch out, it will leave a bit of a shine still (which may actually be all you were alluding to)

Yeah, only instead of oil it’s Hoppes #9. And I don’t patch it out lol. There’s barely anything in there, liquid-wise…for example, I have ran a dry patch or two afterwards, and the patches are barely wet, and not even fully wet. Like the middle bit is dry.

Anyway, sounds like people aren’t turning their barrels into open bananas doing that sort of thing. I think.

 

[carbonbased]

I’d still shoot the bore dry before shooting. Especially the chamber. If the bore has oil/solvent in it…. Guaranteed fliers on the first rounds down it.

Oh, what about your rimfire guns? Do you use your same cleaning regimen? Including occasional use of blue JB or 40x etc.

Rimfire folks seem to subscribe to even more voodoo-like cleaning practices than CF shooters do

 

[71firebird400]

I’ve stored my barrels with a single patch of oil through them for the past 20 years. I have never dry patched prior to shooting. Zero corrosion or damage or even flyers to report.

 

[Dawhit]

In my experience, a bronze brush and BT C4 or Rimfire Blend will get a rimfire barrel back to new condition with far less effort than a centerfire. Verified with a bore scope.

If you follow the shooter from Vudoo’s routine of soaking the chamber area with a wet patch to control the carbon ring, followed by one wet patch down the barrel and a few dry patches to dry the bore out. After a couple thousand rounds, it will take some brushing to get the bore spotless again. Start with a nylon brush to get the heavy crud out before transitioning to a bronze brush. Starting out with a tight fitting bronze brush is a chore to get down a bore with that many rounds on it.

Personally, cleaning after every range trip versus the other method produced similar accuracy, but it takes more foulers on a clean bore to get it to tighten up versus 2 foulers on a dirty bore.

 

[Baron23]

Hey @Frank Green I did a search and couldn’t come up with an answer given by you on how you clean a rimfire barrel.

With CF I just use your method and it works. Don’t know if rimfire is any different.

Second question: after using your CF cleaning process on a CF gun (or rimfire, I suppose), what do you think of not dry patching the bore before shooting? I guess there would be a bit of Hoppes in there.

I’ve read that the first bullet hydraulically pushing the liquid out is either bad, or not bad. Or that the heat/gas/pressure preceding the bullet pushes/evaporates/burns the liquid out before the bullet passes over it. Typical internet conjecture. I have no idea.

For people not named Frank Green (who already knows), gas apparently does exit before the bullet, btw. This vid shows slo-mo footage of a bunch of calibers exiting the bore. Don’t think they actually chrono’ed the bullets, but as a 204 lover, my totally unbiased analysis concludes that the 204 exit was the coolest


I did see you do this before shooting:

For the Love of God, GI Joe and John Wayne.... cleaning and abrasive cleaners

I always us a boreguide. I use VFG plain pellets w/ Bore Tech C4 followed by KG3 solvent degreaser. Finally a pellet w/ Montana X-Treme Bore Conditioner and 1 last dry pellet for any excess left behind. Once in a while I will throw the bore-tech copper remover in the mix. KG3 between all...

www.snipershide.com

Not sure if this is of interest to you, but I've given this doc to some rimfire folks I know and they liked it very much.

 

[carbonbased]

Not sure if this is of interest to you, but I've given this doc to some rimfire folks I know and they liked it very much.

Ooohhh yeah thx man. I have that pdf somewhere on my HD/phone. I wonder what happened to that guy?

 

[Mauser48]

@Frank Green Id like to expand on this a bit and get your opinion on cleaning firearms other than precision rifles.

Milsurp rifles: I have some older mausers, 1903a3 springfield etc. Do you try to find bore guides for these, or just clean from the back and do your best?

AR Rifles: Do you use a bore guide for non precision/government type AR rifles? Any problems using hoppes in chrome lined barrels?

Other Firearms: Specifically ones that can't be cleaned from the back (revolvers, m1 garand, etc), do you use a muzzle guide on the rod?

 

[WeR0206]

@Frank Green Id like to expand on this a bit and get your opinion on cleaning firearms other than precision rifles.

Milsurp rifles: I have some older mausers, 1903a3 springfield etc. Do you try to find bore guides for these, or just clean from the back and do your best?

AR Rifles: Do you use a bore guide for non precision/government type AR rifles? Any problems using hoppes in chrome lined barrels?

Other Firearms: Specifically ones that can't be cleaned from the back (revolvers, m1 garand, etc), do you use a muzzle guide on the rod?

For AR’s in a pinch you can use a bolt carrier as a bore guide.

 

[Mauser48]

For AR’s in a pinch you can use a bolt carrier as a bore guide.

I did end up getting one for ARs because they're pretty available so I figured why not. The cleaning rods definitely stay in better shape when using a guide.

 

[Frank Green]

@Frank Green Id like to expand on this a bit and get your opinion on cleaning firearms other than precision rifles.

Milsurp rifles: I have some older mausers, 1903a3 springfield etc. Do you try to find bore guides for these, or just clean from the back and do your best?

AR Rifles: Do you use a bore guide for non precision/government type AR rifles? Any problems using hoppes in chrome lined barrels?

Other Firearms: Specifically ones that can't be cleaned from the back (revolvers, m1 garand, etc), do you use a muzzle guide on the rod?

Nope I use a bore/rod guide for my AR rifles as well. Same with a 1917 enfield or Springfield or Mauser etc...

Use something. Something is better than nothing. If the barrel is in good shape... why take a chance on wrecking it?

The Sinclair rod guide is pretty universal. Only thing I've done to those is put a chamfer on the backside of the guide handle so it's easier to pull out as the ejector isn't locked against that flat surface.

SINCLAIR INTERNATIONAL O-RING SNOUTS FOR ADJUSTABLE ROD GUIDES | Brownells

Check out SINCLAIR INTERNATIONAL O-RING SNOUTS FOR ADJUSTABLE ROD GUIDES | Brownells available Online at Brownells Today and many more Gun Bore Guides products are available in our Tools & Cleaning Department.

www.brownells.com

or get a straight one piece one like this.....than it keeps the ejector pushed back the whole time and doesn't get hung up.

SINCLAIR INTERNATIONAL SINCLAIR TWO PIECE CLEANING ROD GUIDE BODIES | Brownells

Check out SINCLAIR INTERNATIONAL SINCLAIR TWO PIECE CLEANING ROD GUIDE BODIES | Brownells available Online at Brownells Today and many more Gun Bore Guides products are available in our Tools & Cleaning Department.

www.brownells.com

Later, Frank