For the Love of God, GI Joe and John Wayne.... cleaning and abrasive cleaners

#601
I always us a boreguide.

I use VFG plain pellets w/ Bore Tech C4 followed by KG3 solvent degreaser.

Finally a pellet w/ Montana X-Treme Bore Conditioner and 1 last dry pellet for any excess left behind.

Once in a while I will throw the bore-tech copper remover in the mix. KG3 between all chemical changes.

I live in a semiarid climate but as a precaution I leave the can off and action open to allow any missed moisture to evaporate.

I personally think that not removing cans after shooting leads to potential problems.
 
#602
I’ve stopped using abrasives for the time being and am currently testing something due to an issue I had during THS in South Dakota in July and again during the PRS finale.

Long story short after cleaning with an abrasive, Thorroclean, I’d foul with 5 or so rounds and then sight in.somewhere between 50-70 rounds later I’d get a spike of 30-40 FPS. Due to unfortunate life events I was unable to trouble shoot (or really shoot in general) until months later after I dragged myself to the PRS finale.

while trying to trouble shoot this issue I was talking to a very respected/top shooter in the PRS and he stated he’s seen the same velocity spike as well 50-100 rounds after cleaning with an abrasive. It’s due to the abrasive smoothing over the fire cracking and then the fire cracking roughing back up after 50-100 rounds. They only use solvents to clean the barrel and very rarely do they ever use an abrasive, if ever.

Take that for what you will. It’s proved true this far for me.
 
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#603
jthor said:
I’ve stopped using abrasives for the time being and am currently testing something due to an issue I had during THS in South Dakota in July and again during the PRS finale.

Long story short after cleaning with an abrasive, Thorroclean, I’d foul with 5 or so rounds and then sight in.somewhere between 50-70 rounds later I’d get a spike of 30-40 FPS. Due to unfortunate life events I was unable to trouble shoot (or really shoot in general) until months later after I dragged myself to the PRS finale.

while trying to trouble shoot this issue I was talking to a very respected/top shooter in the PRS and he stated he’s seen the same velocity spike as well 50-100 rounds after cleaning with an abrasive. It’s due to the abrasive smoothing over the fire cracking and then the fire cracking roughing back up after 50-100 rounds. They only use solvents to clean the barrel and very rarely do they ever use an abrasive, if ever.

Take that for what you will. It’s proved true this far for me.
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So MV went down from smoothness and up (spiked) when fire cracking roughed up again?

Kind of not what I would intuitively expect.
 
#605
jthor said:
Correct. Makes sense when you consider that the speed up that happens during “break in” during the first 200 rounds or so is from the fire cracking starting.
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Ok, I thought (and yeah, that’s why I try not to do that very much lol) the initial speed up was from throat and bore tool marks/etc being smoothed and perhaps the bore opening up just a tiny bit.

Interesting.
 
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#606
Just spitballing but could early barrel length roughness/fowling be increasing friction, driving up pressures early on in the bullets barrel path, and yielding an overall increased muzzle velocity. Smooth out the early barrel area with an abrasive, it reduces that early pressure spike for awhile. I suppose if the abrasive is also removing material, it might be filling back in over time with carbon etc. and increasing pressure/sealing and MV. I'm sure some of our barrel experts know the exact mechanics, but I am curious
 
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#611
ToddM said:
Just spitballing but could early barrel length roughness/fowling be increasing friction, driving up pressures early on in the bullets barrel path, and yielding an overall increased muzzle velocity. Smooth out the early barrel area with an abrasive, it reduces that early pressure spike for awhile. I suppose if the abrasive is also removing material, it might be filling back in over time with carbon etc. and increasing pressure/sealing and MV. I'm sure some of our barrel experts know the exact mechanics, but I am curious
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Holliday said:
My understanding (for what that’s worth) is more resistance equates to more pressure. More pressure = more velocity……of course @Frank Green would be the expert on that.
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This ^^^^. I actually had an issue yesterday at the range after cleaning my 5.56 gas gun carbon ring and barrel down almost bare metal (its chrome lined) I used BT c4 then cu+2 and borescope. At the range I was short stroking bc of lack of pressure from clean throat etc.. Seems to line up with what you guys are saying. Im going to experiment by cleaning the throat area/barrel the same way but swap a tungsten buffer weight for a steel one and see if it still short strokes.
 
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#613
Schw15 said:
That shocks me I think boretech c4 is the best carbon cleaner made. There copper c2 isn't so impressive.
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The C4 does seem to make short work of the carbon ring. I stuff a 7 mm pellet with C4 there for 20-30 mins.

42532190-4837-4E95-9DF5-B1E1B9F68B6E.jpeg
 
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#615
Schw15 said:
That shocks me I think boretech c4 is the best carbon cleaner made. There copper c2 isn't so impressive.
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Lol . There are way better carbon solvents than boretech. The only thing boretech has going for it is it's safe and doesn't have a bunch of nasty chems like ammonia. Sweets and butches make boretech look like water.
 
#616
DeathBeforeDismount said:
Lol . There are way better carbon solvents than boretech. The only thing boretech has going for it is it's safe and doesn't have a bunch of nasty chems like ammonia. Sweets and butches make boretech look like water.
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Yeah I guess I should say best carbon cleaner that is safe on barrels and you have no worries of harsh chemicals or pitting of barrels.
 
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#617
DeathBeforeDismount said:
Lol . There are way better carbon solvents than boretech.
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Ok I’m listening.

DeathBeforeDismount said:
The only thing boretech has going for it is it's safe and doesn't have a bunch of nasty chems like ammonia.
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That is a pretty big “only thing” to us humans. I realize you don’t have to worry about that….

DeathBeforeDismount said:
Sweets and butches make boretech look like water.
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Ok.

All this talk about cleaning and we seem to spend almost no time talking about the chemicals and chemical byproducts that we are exposing ourselves to.

I actually like cleaning my guns. The main reason I seek to limit this, is this exposure. Living in a tight urban environment makes it impractical to clean outside. For those who can, they certainly can feel more at ease about it.
 
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#618
I have come to the realization you can either have super safe chems that dont really clean well, or you can have the good stuff and just need to be considerate of how you use them.

I have tried CLR and was not happy with the by product. I got weird growth in the barrel post cleaning and never seen anything like that. I think its too harsh.

Sweets 7.62 and Butches Boreshine are two of the better ones I have used. Also have played around with Proshot, Boretech, Hopes, and a few other ones. Eds Red is a good lube but poor cleaning agent. Same with CLP.
 
#619
DeathBeforeDismount said:
I have come to the realization you can either have super safe chems that dont really clean well, or you can have the good stuff and just need to be considerate of how you use them.

I have tried CLR and was not happy with the by product. I got weird growth in the barrel post cleaning and never seen anything like that. I think its too harsh.

Sweets 7.62 and Butches Boreshine are two of the better ones I have used. Also have played around with Proshot, Boretech, Hopes, and a few other ones. Eds Red is a good lube but poor cleaning agent. Same with CLP.
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Good points but the other main factors to consider are the location of the work bench where the solvents will be applied (ie in garage next to a gas hot water heater vs. well ventilated room with no open flames) and how much time. If you have the time to let a weaker less volatile solvent (like paint thinner/stoddards) soak overnight (and repeat for another day or two) then it makes sense to use the less risky/volatile solvents. If you want to do everything in like 30 mins you'd have to use a very aggressive solvent (naphtha, hexane, ammonia, acetone, etc.) that has high volatility/toxicity.

See here for a good chart: Solvent Properties Chart
 
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#620
DeathBeforeDismount said:
I have come to the realization you can either have super safe chems that dont really clean well, or you can have the good stuff and just need to be considerate of how you use them.
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Yes I can see that. Though I “seem” to be getting great results from C4. I also don’t go for bare metal clean like some folks. The carbon ring is my enemy. My big concern, as @Frank Green mentions, is the potential corrosion after the fact from its water base composition. Being in a semi aired climate is a huge mitigator there.

I guess my problem is that I have too much faith in the progress of modern chemistry as well as too many relatives dead from lung cancer. So I certainly have a bias.
 
#621
@Holliday I've been listening to a few of the Hornady podcasts on barrel cleaning... I think it was the second one, where they talked about what they use to clean their test barrels - a process that has to be done at the end of every shift. IIRC they mostly used either BoreTech Eliminator or WipeOut PatchOut - I'd have to go back and listen again) - primarily because it a) got the job done and b) minimized the hazmat exposure concerns in the work place.

I've been using BT Eliminator as my 'general purpose' barrel cleaner for the last 5-6 years, along with ThorroClean for problem children (carbon buildup, etc.). Follow with a few wet patches of 99% isopropyl alcohol, then dry patch. Haven't had any corrosion problems with SS barrels that I've noticed. I recently tried some WipeOut PatchOut and Accelerator again (been probably 10 years since the last time). It seems to do a similar job to Eliminator... maybe not quite as good, but that might just be my personal bias leaking into the testing.

Forgot to add... after years of using BT Eliminator & ThorroClean - basically very little or no smell - that's one of the things I don't particularly like about WipeOut PatchOut - the smell. It's not 'bad'... but when you're used to 'none', it's definitely noticeable.
 
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#622
WeR0206 said:
Good points but the other main factors to consider are the location of the work bench where the solvents will be applied (ie in garage next to a gas hot water heater vs. well ventilated room with no open flames) and how much time. If you have the time to let a weaker less volatile solvent (like paint thinner/stoddards) soak overnight (and repeat for another day or two) then it makes sense to use the less risky/volatile solvents. If you want to do everything in like 30 mins you'd have to use a very aggressive solvent (naphtha, hexane, ammonia, acetone, etc.) that has high volatility/toxicity.

See here for a good chart: Solvent Properties Chart
Click to expand...
Funny I worked construction for the first 25 years of my late teens and early adult life. The lack of caution about exposure and the chemicals in use then was different. I think back to all the stuff I was exposed to and I should be dead and deaf. They banned the pressure treated wood in use then that I built a ton of decks with. I ran saws all day without ear pro.

Now one of the first things I reach for is ear pro or a charcoal respirator with spay paint or heavy chemicals.

Now a days you need hazmat mitigation for a lot of demo jobs for asbestos. That stuff is everywhere. Lord knows I must have breathed enough of that over the years to choke a horse.
 
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#623
memilanuk said:
@Holliday I've been listening to a few of the Hornady podcasts on barrel cleaning... I think it was the second one, where they talked about what they use to clean their test barrels - a process that has to be done at the end of every shift. IIRC they mostly used either BoreTech Eliminator or WipeOut PatchOut - I'd have to go back and listen again) - primarily because it a) got the job done and b) minimized the hazmat exposure concerns in the work place.

I've been using BT Eliminator as my 'general purpose' barrel cleaner for the last 5-6 years, along with ThorroClean for problem children (carbon buildup, etc.). Follow with a few wet patches of 99% isopropyl alcohol, then dry patch. Haven't had any corrosion problems with SS barrels that I've noticed. I recently tried some WipeOut PatchOut and Accelerator again (been probably 10 years since the last time). It seems to do a similar job to Eliminator... maybe not quite as good, but that might just be my personal bias leaking into the testing.
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I can second this. I listened to the same podcast and you're right they said they mainly use BT eliminator (due to work hazard concerns). It was a 3 part series on barrel cleaning. Well worth listening to all 3. The last one was them presenting data on # shots before cleaning and total # shots of barrel life for different calibers. I'd be curious what Frank's thoughts are on this series.







It seems the BT products are fine as long as folks do exactly what you laid out to make sure there's no residual water left. A few patches of IPA then dry patch and if storing for a while hit it with a light patch of mineral oil or similar oil/protectant.
 
#624
Holliday said:
Yes I can see that. Though I “seem” to be getting great results from C4. I also don’t go for bare metal clean like some folks. The carbon ring is my enemy. My big concern, as @Frank Green mentions, is the potential corrosion after the fact from its water base composition. Being in a semi aired climate is a huge mitigator there.

I guess my problem is that I have too much faith in the progress of modern chemistry as well as too many relatives dead from lung cancer. So I certainly have a bias.
Click to expand...
If you “seem” to be getting great results with C4 it’s probably because you actually are getting great results….etc.

lol to me there are far more important rabbit holes to dive into than the ones being dug on this thread.

I use BT because it works and is safe for both me and my barrels.

I personally think “safe or works good, pick one” is a false dichotomy.

And I don’t put IPA on my barrels afterward, live in the humid swamp of Maryland, and haven’t have a spec of corrosion in my barrels. I do sometime run a patch w Gun Scrubber on it but I view that as a kind of last step to get any remaining loose fouling out of the bore.

I do dry patch until utterly and completely dry. Perhaps that’s the difference. A number of people seem to feel that 3 dry patches and it’s Miller Time. Their rifle, their choice. But it’s not what I do.

Many many people have used BT products for many years and claims of corrosion number like unicorns in the wild. And people lie all the time so we never really know what else those few folks also were doing that could have cause corrosion.

Carry on.
 
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#625
Just soaked my barrel 24 hrs in boretech c4 then patched the barrel out dry then put another wet patch then patch it til it was dry. Now I'm soaking it in boretech c2 copper for another 24 hrs but I patch it then scrub it with brush then fill barrel up. I don't like the boretech copper so much if it don't work then I use patch out and accelator which is awesome on copper. But figured I would give c2 another shot and I have 2 bottle.
 
#627
Schw15 said:
Just soaked my barrel 24 hrs in boretech c4 then patched the barrel out dry then put another wet patch then patch it til it was dry. Now I'm soaking it in boretech c2 copper for another 24 hrs but I patch it then scrub it with brush then fill barrel up. I don't like the boretech copper so much if it don't work then I use patch out and accelator which is awesome on copper. But figured I would give c2 another shot and I have 2 bottle.
Click to expand...

Hah! I have a big bottle of BT C4 and another of Cu2 kicking around the drawer where I keep my cleaning solvents, lubes, etc. Don't remember when/why I got those. Since I started using Eliminator, I hardly ever use those any more. Decided I'll use those up cleaning some of my 'blaster' guns - they tend to foul up harder / heavier anyway than my precision rigs.
 
#628
richthe1 said:
Frank, I tried to skim through all 12 pages so o could better learn how you clean barrels. I found your “hurry-up” method described above. I apologize if I missed it, but if you have time to answer, what is your “normal” cleaning method? From steps to specific products used. Currently have two of your barrels, so I want to keep them nice. Thanks so much!
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Just Hoppes #9 and patches. Wet patches till they come out clean.

No dry patching.

Repeat over a few to several days.

I store all my guns with Hoppes.

Just a fresh wet patch or two and dry patch the bore and chamber good before shooting.
 
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#629
Frank Green said:
Just Hoppes #9 and patches. Wet patches till they come out clean.

No dry patching.

Repeat over a few to several days.

I store all my guns with Hoppes.

Just a fresh wet patch or two and dry patch the bore and chamber good before shooting.
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Stupid question, but how do you wet you patches?

It's been years since I used Hoppes, but I remember it being mildly annoying dipping a cleaning rod into the jar and trying not to tip it over.
 
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#631
beetroot said:
Stupid question, but how do you wet you patches?

It's been years since I used Hoppes, but I remember it being mildly annoying dipping a cleaning rod into the jar and trying not to tip it over.
Click to expand...

If you can't figure something that basic out, find another hobby... for everyone's sake.
 
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#632
beetroot said:
Stupid question, but how do you wet you patches?

It's been years since I used Hoppes, but I remember it being mildly annoying dipping a cleaning rod into the jar and trying not to tip it over.
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I use a bore/rod guide that has a solvent port in it. Like the Lucas Bore Guide. Wrap the patch around the jag... start it into the rod guide....pour the solvent on the patch thru the port. Simple pimple.

Then your never putting a brush or patch into your solvent jar and contaminating the solvent as well.

 
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#634
Schw15 said:
Just soaked my barrel 24 hrs in boretech c4 then patched the barrel out dry then put another wet patch then patch it til it was dry. Now I'm soaking it in boretech c2 copper for another 24 hrs but I patch it then scrub it with brush then fill barrel up. I don't like the boretech copper so much if it don't work then I use patch out and accelator which is awesome on copper. But figured I would give c2 another shot and I have 2 bottle.
Click to expand...
I use BT....but I agree....Patch Out works very well on copper.
 
#637
beetroot said:
but as a stupid 16 year old I started with the "dip method".
Click to expand...

As a sixteen year old, I could give it a pass. Pretty sure we all did that at some point, especially if we didn't have any guidance / educated adult supervision. Myself, I grew up in a house that had guns, but no cleaning kit of any kind. 'Cleaning' consisted of hosing the gun off with WD40, if you happened to drop it in the dirt. I was the weirdo who asked for a cleaning kit for Christmas when in high school ;)

That you're still asking how to properly apply solvent ten years later though... is a tad worrisome. ;)
 
#638
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#639
Baron23 said:
I use BT....but I agree....Patch Out works very well on copper.
Click to expand...

My experience has been that by the time I get most of the carbon out... pretty much all of the copper is gone as well. Going further, to chemically erase any traces of copper from the pores of the steel barrel... never seemed worth the effort for me.

If I have a barrel that *coppers* heavily... I'm usually looking for a new barrel. YMMV.
 
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#640
memilanuk said:
I went the pipette route for a while... still kind of a PITA. Ended up going with 2 oz flip-top bottles - those specific ones are unavailable now, but... it's Amazon. I'm sure you can find something similar. I keep one with BT Eliminator, one with ThorroFlush, and one with 99% isopropyl alcohol on the bench.
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I like to use these ones. Everyone has their preferences I guess. One thing to keep in mind that the type of bottle is dependent on the solvent. For example I would only store iso alcohol in a bottle with a closed top etc so it doesn’t absorb too much moisture from the air. As soon as you open the seal on a 99% it basically turns to a 91% just from all the moisture that rushes in.

Liberty Products 2-2oz Plastic... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07R1MHWBH?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share
 
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#641
WeR0206 said:
For example I would only store iso alcohol in a bottle with a closed top etc so it doesn’t absorb too much moisture from the air. As soon as you open the seal on a 99% it basically turns to a 91% just from all the moisture that rushes in.
Click to expand...

Good point. I wondered about that - ie how quickly 99% became... something less. For most of what I'm doing, it doesn't matter *too* much, but 99% is annoyingly hard to find short of mail order.
 
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#642
memilanuk said:
Good point. I wondered about that - ie how quickly 99% became... something less. For most of what I'm doing, it doesn't matter *too* much, but 99% is annoyingly hard to find short of mail order.
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Yeah it’s not really worth paying slightly more for 99% vs 91% bc of how quickly it absorbs moisture when you open it. Also the 91% will evaporate off slightly slower allowing the iso more time to do it’s thing.

In general Iso will absorb water until it reaches equilibrium at around 65%.

 
#644
Some great discussion by @Frank Green in the below videos on many of the cleaning recommendations etc mentioned in this thread but also the warning signs a barrel is on its last legs, switching to a slightly different type of SS and the benefits it brought, and other topics.



 
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#645
I gave boretech copper c2 another chance. After talking with boretech I let the barrel soak for over 2 days. First I brushed it with c2 then put the pva Jimmy cap or whatever it's called on and filled the barrel full. When I cleaned it out the first patch did come out blue but the copper was still there just looking at the muzzle you could see it and streaking down. Think I'm done with c2. I'm cleaning it with patch out and it usually cleans the copper super fast and according to them it's also a rust prevention.
 
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#646
Schw15 said:
I gave boretech copper c2 another chance. After talking with boretech I let the barrel soak for over 2 days. First I brushed it with c2 then put the pva Jimmy cap or whatever it's called on and filled the barrel full. When I cleaned it out the first patch did come out blue but the copper was still there just looking at the muzzle you could see it and streaking down. Think I'm done with c2. I'm cleaning it with patch out and it usually cleans the copper super fast and according to them it's also a rust prevention.
Click to expand...

KG does even worse if you're thinking about wasting your money on that too
 
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#647
Schw15 said:
I gave boretech copper c2 another chance. After talking with boretech I let the barrel soak for over 2 days. First I brushed it with c2 then put the pva Jimmy cap or whatever it's called on and filled the barrel full. When I cleaned it out the first patch did come out blue but the copper was still there just looking at the muzzle you could see it and streaking down. Think I'm done with c2. I'm cleaning it with patch out and it usually cleans the copper super fast and according to them it's also a rust prevention.
Click to expand...
Ok so patch out it the gold standard for copper? How long do you soak?
 
#649
I soak my barrel with BT c4 (very wet patch), let it sit. Then after 30 minutes I scrub with a nylon brush a bunch. Then wet patch it until it looks clean. Then dry patch it a bit, then use BT Eliminator on a patch, let it sit for 30, scrub it with a nylon brush. Then I use more Eliminator on wet patches, then a bunch of dry patches, and then.... I put a patch covered in CLP (not CLR!) down the barrel, then a single dry patch and call it a day. I like CLP as a protectorant. I'm not saying it is the best, but I have a metric fuck-ton of it and why not use it?
 
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#650
For you guys that love the original Hoppes #9, you should check out FreeAll (non aerosol). It's a penetrating oil that has some carbon and copper removing agents. The stuff is pretty legit.

The first patch from FreeAll after previously cleaning with Wipe Out and C4.
 

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