His dealer didn't do his part until March. Likely cost him 7-8 months wait
-
Having trouble using the site?
Contact support
His dealer didn't do his part until March. Likely cost him 7-8 months wait
Certified 3-31-22
Approved 12-15-22
259
Control 2022387261
Approved 12-15-22
259
Control 2022387261
My first eform was certified on 5/17, so we’re getting closer… At this rate, only 365 more days to go! 
Just curious what the encoding is, or how you know that number indicates March 30/31? I only ask cause I certified on on July 7th, 2022, but my control number doesn't seem to make it obvious it was in July?
Yes I know I’m right there, the closer you get time just seems to stop, lol.
Sure, I’ll attempt to answer you. The last six digit encoding is simply a sequential number of the various forms for submission. Form 1 - SBR; Form 2 - For manufacturers that submit serial numbers to ATF to be entered into the registry and by extension the mfgr then has permission to start production with those approved serial numbers; Form 3 - transfers from Mfgr or FFL/SOT to other FFL/SOT; Form 4 - FFL/SOT transfer to end customer/entity. And other Forms that share this same sequential numbering.
So what I do for my own purpose is I take two submissions of two different dates, determine the number of days between those dates, then I subtract the more recent submission number from the older submission number I take that answer and I divide it by the number of days to get an average number of submission/day. So I’ll use two generalized submission numbers (that are close to reality), say on 3/29 there was a submission number of 377000 and on 3/7 there was a submission number 321000. So 377000 - 321000 = 56,000 submissions (of all Form types that use this format). Then 3/29 date - 3/7 date = 22 days. Finally, 56,000/22 = 2545 submissions/day. Now go back to the post above with a submission number of 381558 with an unknown submission date. We know there was a submission on 3/29 of 377000, so we know the 381558 is a more recent number. So let’s find out the difference between 381558 - 377000 = 4558. If we then take 4558 and divide by the 2545/avg submission/day, you can extrapolate 4558/2545 = 1.79 days. Add 1.79 days to 3/29 and you get an approximate submission date of 30.79 which could be either the 30th or 31st of March.
Now would you like an approximate date of when your July 7th submission is going to be approved? I’ll post this first.
Ah, gotcha, thank you. I thought date was encoding in the number somehow, but it's not... at all... LOL... I'll drop you my control number in a DM...
I would suggest you follow or look in on the NFA subreddit on eform submissions:
Reddit - Dive into anything
www.reddit.com
The Mod of that thread certainly understands statistical analysis. I have been watching this link from that mod for months on wait times for form 4 devices:
ATF Approval - Current Wait
www.atfapproval.com
When you look at the latter link you see that the curve has not flattened (wait times are still increasing) and so, at the very best some assumptions have to be made. There is so much data with people posting many times daily of their submission date and control number on the specific ”eForm 4 Approval Megathread (December 2022)” see:
So on occasion I try to determine how many days does it take for NFA to work through one submission date and it seems to bounce around between 2.6 and 3.1, so I’ll use an average of 2.85 days to process 1 days‘s of submissions. So I’ll attempt a very rough estimate of when your July 7th might be approved. First when I look at the eform approval megathread above, I think it was this Tuesday the first April 1st submission was approved and then it bounces all over back to earlier date submissions being approved. But more of the 4/1 dates have since also been approved. So I will use the assumption that March is basically being finished up. I can tell you this right now whatever assumption I use, you’re not going to like the answer because it’s quite grim. Sorry I don’t mean to be The Grinch at Christmas time…
July 7th was 162 days ago and again making the assumption March is closed out (it isn’t, but it’s getting close). Then using the current assumption that they are working on April 1st at present and that date was 259 days ago. 259 - 162 = 97. So there are 97 submission days between what they are currently working on on your July 7th submission. Now the really ugly part: 97 days x 2.85 actual days to process each submission date.… 97 x 2.85 = 276 days. But I‘m not done. After today it’s reasonable to conclude many examiners will be finished up for the remainder of the year so add another 17 days until January 2nd. 276 +17 = 293 days from now, which would be October 5th.
Now there is some additional information that I will offer that does add a more hopeful scenario. I communicated with an examiner a little over a month ago and was told that yes, initially eform 4‘s we’re approved in the 90 day range back in the earlier part of the year and since have steadily increased as most examiners were assigned to paper form 4s to clear them out of the system and then be reassigned to eforms.
The other points to consider is that there are at least two cases in federal court challenging aspects of NFA. There are 168k members on the NFA subreddit thread. One guy on there is waiting for his form 4 approval of his MG42 that when he was asked how much he paid, he provided a link to the auction where he paid $130k for that MG. What’s my point, there are affluent people that like firearms. If even just 1000 people of the 168k were willing to do a go fund me each donating $1000/person which would be $1 million just for legal fee fund to file cases against the NFA/ATF, the attorneys for the ATF would not be stonewalling or ignoring an Article III judge in federal court.
The issue is not with the examiners, are some more slower than others? Sure, but they are not the issue. It’s either upper management or an incredibly poorly designed system that is the eform system. I‘ve talked to IT people and they concur. I mean NFA is literally a registry from inception to end user these things are tracked. I have written to ATF asking what is the procedure for how devices are put before examiners? Do they finish a review and then request the next submission number or are they given sequential numbers in say 1000 submission blocks and then the examiner works through that block and then requests the next block? If this is the way it works if an examiner takes an unscheduled leave of absence does the remaining devices set in limbo or are reassigned to other examiners? Answer: We are not at liberty to elaborate on internal processes. Even getting a congressional person involved results in canned responses. The answer in part is batch approvals which I made clear in my letter and I even cut them off at the pass that the public does not care about them being processed in the order they are received as long as a batch approval is based on the oldest submission date controls the batch approval! No answer.
A friend of mine who has practiced law for decades told me several years ago, there are people with so much money they will drop a $1 million on legal fees just to get some obscure ruling decided just because they have the money to do it. I think if the ATF rules that pistol braces are SBR‘s that will open the floodgates in the courts against the ATF. I don’t own an SBR, but if I understand the rule it is like an MG which requires preauthorization to take across state lines and at present that can take a few weeks to two months. Someone correct me if I am wrong? Does transporting an SBR across state lines require a form submission and approval from ATF? Now imagine they go forward with this pistol brace debacle with an estimated 40 million in existence. How long do you think it’s going to take to get an approval to take your SBR to Uncle John’s across state lines for Thanksgiving to share with the family? ATF: “We’re sorry current transport authorizations like this are taking three to five years, have a nice day.”
I would suggest you follow or look in on the NFA subreddit on eform submissions:
Reddit - Dive into anything
The Mod of that thread certainly understands statistical analysis. I have been watching this link from that mod for months on wait times for form 4 devices:
ATF Approval - Current Wait
When you look at the latter link you see that the curve has not flattened (wait times are still increasing) and so, at the very best some assumptions have to be made. There is so much data with people posting many times daily of their submission date and control number on the specific ”eForm 4 Approval Megathread (December 2022)” see:
So on occasion I try to determine how many days does it take for NFA to work through one submission date and it seems to bounce around between 2.6 and 3.1, so I’ll use an average of 2.85 days to process 1 days‘s of submissions. So I’ll attempt a very rough estimate of when your July 7th might be approved. First when I look at the eform approval megathread above, I think it was this Tuesday the first April 1st submission was approved and then it bounces all over back to earlier date submissions being approved. But more of the 4/1 dates have since also been approved. So I will use the assumption that March is basically being finished up. I can tell you this right now whatever assumption I use, you’re not going to like the answer because it’s quite grim. Sorry I don’t mean to be The Grinch at Christmas time…
July 7th was 162 days ago and again making the assumption March is closed out (it isn’t, but it’s getting close). Then using the current assumption that they are working on April 1st at present and that date was 259 days ago. 259 - 162 = 97. So there are 97 submission days between what they are currently working on on your July 7th submission. Now the really ugly part: 97 days x 2.85 actual days to process each submission date.… 97 x 2.85 = 276 days. But I‘m not done. After today it’s reasonable to conclude many examiners will be finished up for the remainder of the year so add another 17 days until January 2nd. 276 +17 = 293 days from now, which would be October 5th.
Now there is some additional information that I will offer that does add a more hopeful scenario. I communicated with an examiner a little over a month ago and was told that yes, initially eform 4‘s we’re approved in the 90 day range back in the earlier part of the year and since have steadily increased as most examiners were assigned to paper form 4s to clear them out of the system and then be reassigned to eforms.
The other points to consider is that there are at least two cases in federal court challenging aspects of NFA. There are 168k members on the NFA subreddit thread. One guy on there is waiting for his form 4 approval of his MG42 that when he was asked how much he paid, he provided a link to the auction where he paid $130k for that MG. What’s my point, there are affluent people that like firearms. If even just 1000 people of the 168k were willing to do a go fund me each donating $1000/person which would be $1 million just for legal fee fund to file cases against the NFA/ATF, the attorneys for the ATF would not be stonewalling or ignoring an Article III judge in federal court.
The issue is not with the examiners, are some more slower than others? Sure, but they are not the issue. It’s either upper management or an incredibly poorly designed system that is the eform system. I‘ve talked to IT people and they concur. I mean NFA is literally a registry from inception to end user these things are tracked. I have written to ATF asking what is the procedure for how devices are put before examiners? Do they finish a review and then request the next submission number or are they given sequential numbers in say 1000 submission blocks and then the examiner works through that block and then requests the next block? If this is the way it works if an examiner takes an unscheduled leave of absence does the remaining devices set in limbo or are reassigned to other examiners? Answer: We are not at liberty to elaborate on internal processes. Even getting a congressional person involved results in canned responses. The answer in part is batch approvals which I made clear in my letter and I even cut them off at the pass that the public does not care about them being processed in the order they are received as long as a batch approval is based on the oldest submission date controls the batch approval! No answer.
A friend of mine who has practiced law for decades told me several years ago, there are people with so much money they will drop a $1 million on legal fees just to get some obscure ruling decided just because they have the money to do it. I think if the ATF rules that pistol braces are SBR‘s that will open the floodgates in the courts against the ATF. I don’t own an SBR, but if I understand the rule it is like an MG which requires preauthorization to take across state lines and at present that can take a few weeks to two months. Someone correct me if I am wrong? Does transporting an SBR across state lines require a form submission and approval from ATF? Now imagine they go forward with this pistol brace debacle with an estimated 40 million in existence. How long do you think it’s going to take to get an approval to take your SBR to Uncle John’s across state lines for Thanksgiving to share with the family? ATF: “We’re sorry current transport authorizations like this are taking three to five years, have a nice day.”
That's some good insight, thank you for that.
Does it do any good whatsoever to call and check on the status? Shaking my head in disgust.
Paper Trust form 4 through @Silencer Shop portal by dealer in September 9/24 2021
Tax stamp Check cashed 10/5/21
The wait continues...
Paper Trust form 4 through @Silencer Shop portal by dealer in September 9/24 2021
Tax stamp Check cashed 10/5/21
The wait continues...
Does it do any good whatsoever to call and check on the status? Shaking my head in disgust.
Paper Trust form 4 through @Silencer Shop portal by dealer in September 9/24 2021
Tax stamp Check cashed 10/5/21
The wait continues...
I had some form 1s approved a few years ago. It’s been a while but IIRC, a form 1 that I submitted at a later date was approved but the earlier one was still languishing.
I called and asked about the earlier one. The ATF gentleman said it was still “pending.”
Then I told him that a later one was approved. He didn’t know what to make of that.
It was either that day, or the next, the earlier one was approved.
Coincidence? I do not know.
It can't hurt. There are plenty of stories of guys not getting calls from the FFL when their cans show up. At least you'll know for sure....Does it do any good whatsoever to call and check on the status? Shaking my head in disgust.
Paper Trust form 4 through @Silencer Shop portal by dealer in September 9/24 2021
Tax stamp Check cashed 10/5/21
The wait continues...
This is the basic timeline for my e-form from start to finish with my purchase to final approval.
02-19-22 Purchased TB ultra 9 from MileHigh.
03-08-22 Logged into SS kiosk and registered info and paid tax stamp.
04-04-22 Submitted
12-17-22 Approved
258 days from submitted to approval.
315 days from suppressor purchase to final approval.
Was ready to go pick up suppressor from ffl when I received my approval. Called them to verify before I came in.
They said I had to wait a day or two for them to receive there paperwork and clear it threw there system before I came down.
I was not too happy, it is what it is I guess.
02-19-22 Purchased TB ultra 9 from MileHigh.
03-08-22 Logged into SS kiosk and registered info and paid tax stamp.
04-04-22 Submitted
12-17-22 Approved
258 days from submitted to approval.
315 days from suppressor purchase to final approval.
Was ready to go pick up suppressor from ffl when I received my approval. Called them to verify before I came in.
They said I had to wait a day or two for them to receive there paperwork and clear it threw there system before I came down.
I was not too happy, it is what it is I guess.
Last edited:
I’m just curious and don’t mean to hijack this thread but my question might have bearing on someone caught in this situation in the future.
Suppose a person buys a suppressor from a dealer. The check is cashed, fingerprints, photo and form 4 is filed. The $200 is paid to the ATF.
The suppressor is in jail but the dealer goes out of business.
What happens next in this nightmare scenario?
Suppose a person buys a suppressor from a dealer. The check is cashed, fingerprints, photo and form 4 is filed. The $200 is paid to the ATF.
The suppressor is in jail but the dealer goes out of business.
What happens next in this nightmare scenario?
They may try and expedite if the dealer calls up the ATF and explains the situation.
That sounds like the best possible outcome but the way some people run their business, that may not happen.
Its a regulatory thing, I'm not sure they have a choice. They have to get their class 3 shit out if their names so they expedite all the transfers. That's how guys get lucky with the crazy short approval times.
On a side note, my April 2nd certifies should be done real damn soon. I'm on shift until Tuesday so hopefully I get a couple emails and can pick them up on the way home.
On a side note, my April 2nd certifies should be done real damn soon. I'm on shift until Tuesday so hopefully I get a couple emails and can pick them up on the way home.
04/31 here
I got nuthin but silence from the feds.
May try for another one another way from another dealer.
M
261. Expecting it any time now though. Lots of other early Aprils coming through now.
I called them this morning, still pending, and they’re still maintaining the 180 day wait time. Seeing as to how I’m at 216 for the first one, I think they’ve managed to miss that 180 benchmark by a whole month.
Not a happy camper. Certified on 4/7/2022. There was a glitch on the ATF website that caused my address to only show up as a partial address on the PDF. Dealer contacted the ATF immediately and was told there was nothing they could do, even though it was a website error, since the Form 4 was submitted. Dealer requested to withdraw the submission. They did not process it as a withdrawal until TODAY. I was under the impression they were able to resubmit immediately with the same form since that was correct and the glitch was web submission related. Apparently that wasn't case and now I have to start the process over again.
I'd be on the phone to my senators office immediately and would demand satisfaction
Oh no! You just screwed yourself into an unneeded and lengthy do over!!
Since it was an ATF error you should have let it ride and then you would have likely received a message similar to the following:
FAILURE TO GENERATE SUBMITTED EFORM. TO REGAIN YOUR PLACE IN LINE, PLEASE RESUBMIT AND SEND BOTH THE PREVIOUS AND REPLACEMENT CONTROL NUMBERS TO [email protected] REFUND IN PROGRESS.
But you would have needed for ATF to disapprove you and then you could have followed the instructions above. The above resubmit process with both control numbers has been approved upon resubmission in as fast as a few hours to a few days as you are put in a priority expedite queue, like MIL PCS orders. There is no way you can go back and un ring the bell, since they have already processed your withdrawal. Have you got a notification that your refund is in progress?
The disapproved reason was withdrawal requested and yes it does say the refund is in progress. My dealer is one of the most experienced in the state so I didn't question it any further initially.
Yea, that self-initiated ”withdrawal requested” is the issue. IF the ATF can see that there was an issue with the original submission on their end, then you may have a chance at resending the old submission number with the new submission to the address I notated above with an explanation.
As you can see from the attached image, someone got an approval in 90 minutes after resubmission.
Good luck, I hope it works for you.
Attachments
Last edited:
Did ATF initiate the Form 1 denial or did you initiate a withdrawal?
The clarifying point is when ATF denies and acknowledges fault on their end, then they have a record of that and so do you in writing, all of which aids your position in resubmission. When you submit a withdrawal request then I think it is reasonable to conclude in your Form 4 scenario where your address didn’t fully populate/transfer it is doubtful that goof is retained on their end and thus impossible for you to prove fault on their end. How did find out that your Form 4 didn’t fully transfer correctly?
IIRC, Form 1’s are paper submission only and there is leniency to resubmit corrections same with Paper Form 4. With eform 4 there is zero tolerance on errors that are the fault of the customer (i.e. checking a “yes” box to the 4473 section when only “no“ answers permit you to move forward). I suppose ATF reasoning is in order to process an eform in the stated goal of 90 days or less (yes I know that is not happening) then they cannot allow corrected resubmissions from customers.
The PDF in the email from the ATF is the form that showed the partial address. The Form 4 I signed and dealer submitted was correct.
Well with the proof in the pdf then you should be good to go. Submit your old and new submission numbers attach that pdf that shows your partial address error due to the ATF server with an explanation to [email protected]
It was their denial based on missing picture in which they said it was a system glitch.
Does it do any good whatsoever to call and check on the status? Shaking my head in disgust.
Paper Trust form 4 through @Silencer Shop portal by dealer in September 9/24 2021
Tax stamp Check cashed 10/5/21
The wait continues...
I had two submitted around the same time last year and they just came in last week (submitted through Capitol Armory). They said the ATF had paused on eform 4's to clear out the paper form 4's that have been sitting around so hopefully you'll get yours soon.
I had a friend that got his denied recently for an error on the eform 4. Control number was in the 560xxx range. Thought that was interesting.
Finally.
2 approved this morning 12/22/22 after certified 4/2/21. 264 days.
Still one in the pipe from June 6. Can't imagine when I'll finally get that one.
2 approved this morning 12/22/22 after certified 4/2/21. 264 days.
Still one in the pipe from June 6. Can't imagine when I'll finally get that one.
Yeah, typo. Sure seemed like it was from 21 waiting for it though... Hahaha
Finally! What an awesome Christmas present.
SilencerCo Omega 36M
259 days
Certified 4-7-22
Approved 12-22-22
Control #4021XX
After being stuck in the third week of March forever, April seems to be moving a little faster, but not very organized. They're approving everything from April 1 to April 20 over 25K control numbers at the same time. I imagine it's pretty frustrating for those 4/1 guys still waiting...
SilencerCo Omega 36M
259 days
Certified 4-7-22
Approved 12-22-22
Control #4021XX
After being stuck in the third week of March forever, April seems to be moving a little faster, but not very organized. They're approving everything from April 1 to April 20 over 25K control numbers at the same time. I imagine it's pretty frustrating for those 4/1 guys still waiting...
Cool. I have one that I did in April I think that's a 22lr one, but it was done at my buddy's shop so I don't know exactly when. I have one more with SS that was certified 05/07/22., so maybe I will get that one in a month or two. I know more likely 2 ish months
Merry Christmas. Santa finally got my suppressor approved. I've been following this thread for months checking on updates and today I received the email about 10 minutes ago saying it was approved. Very exciting day.
260 days
Certified 4/9/22
Approved 12/25/22
Control #4099xx
260 days
Certified 4/9/22
Approved 12/25/22
Control #4099xx
Similar threads
Suppressors
Form 4, no ATF signature
