Fuel, mixing ratios, octane numbers,yeah, gearhead

[Switchblade]

Unleaded VP MS101 is 99 MON(or Motor Octane) and 101 R+M/2 pump fuel octane. We know it will mix fine with R+M/2 91 Unleaded avaialble at Shell or BP.
Math:
To get Pump Gas octane up, using the R+M/2 numbers of 91, and 101, what percentage of VP MS101 is needed to reach R+M/2 96?

I know there are a few gearheads and racers who may have played with fuels before and some of you may find the results of this more than intresting.

Sources with over 24 years of experience, some with 40 years of experience, as well as VP reps say mixing Unleaded with Unleaded is fine with no issues except for better quality fuel for higher compression motors.

 

[Rhys]

Re: Fuel, mixing ratios, octane numbers,yeah, gearhead

uhhhh..... 42 the meaning of life, the universe, and everything

 

[Chute&Shoot]

Re: Fuel, mixing ratios, octane numbers,yeah, gearhead

There is no straight answer with the available info. It depends on how it was blended tp begin with.

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: Fuel, mixing ratios, octane numbers,yeah, gearhead

Here you go Switch
http://www.serioussolutions.com/evo/octcalc.htm

forgot this one also
http://www.bazellracefuels.com/Calcs/OC1.htm

 

[SnkBit]

Re: Fuel, mixing ratios, octane numbers,yeah, gearhead

It's going to be a 1 to 1 ratio. The VP product is oxygenated though and I'm not real certain how they are oxygenating it. If they're using ethanol you'll want to stay away from that. Also, you're going to need to re jet for the the higher gravity of the VP. Thats a very fat fuel with a specific gravity of around .800 I believe. Mixing with the pump fuel will reduce the need to re jet but most likely you will still need to lean it out a little.

Out of curiosity, why are you mixing these two fuels?

 

[Lt. Arclight]

Re: Fuel, mixing ratios, octane numbers,yeah, gearhead

All my racing was with fuel injected sprint car engines on Methanol but I have experience with other fuel systems.

Is this a carburetor application or an electronic fuel injection?Normally aspirated or forced induction?

Mixing leaded and unleaded will destroy catalytic converters and oxygen sensors.A simple and especially useful octane booster for forced induction is the addition of pure TOLUENE. This will also prevent timing changes on modern engines with knock sensors. It can be obtained at about 8/gallon or even cheaper in large quantities at some painting supply houses.

It is a very toxic chemical though-but is actually a big part of the gasoline formula. Very bad for your liver BTW.

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: Fuel, mixing ratios, octane numbers,yeah, gearhead

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lt. Arclight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All my racing was with fuel injected sprint car engines on Methanol but I have experience with other fuel systems.

Is this a carburetor application or an electronic fuel injection?Normally aspirated or forced induction?

Mixing leaded and unleaded will destroy catalytic converters and oxygen sensors.A simple and especially useful octane booster for forced induction is the addition of pure TOLUENE. This will also prevent timing changes on modern engines with knock sensors. It can be obtained at about 8/gallon or even cheaper in large quantities at some painting supply houses.</div></div>
We got most of our fuel for free when we raced but when we were messin' around Toluene was our weapon of choice in the octane chase.

 

[Switchblade]

Re: Fuel, mixing ratios, octane numbers,yeah, gearhead

VP rep said I could mix the MS101 with Shell 93 and BP 91. My jetting is already set for 94 Octane Pump Sunoco(from upstate NY) so I need about 2.5G of Shell to .3G of the MS101 to make 94 Octane. If I jet any different with the Mikuni 42HSR the bike either bogs real bad, or doesn't get to red line right. We have gone through six sets and eight jetting combinations to get the best running motor from off idle to 7500rpm. It really hits hard at 4200 rpm then runs up like a raped ape to redline with the 94 I had from Sunoco.
With the Shell here I get serious backfire that I dang near have to tune out every other fill up. Running just a bit of MS101 will clean it up, give better throttle response and make it run cleaner on hard deceleration and run stupid fast on acceleration

 

[Switchblade]

Re: Fuel, mixing ratios, octane numbers,yeah, gearhead

On Toluene, it runs super but damages the top end and rings over time. 20% to a tank would run the SPorty real good at 96 Octane but I like the better properties of the VP
Plus it's what the kids got me for Father's Day....5 Gallons of VP MS101

No1 SOn got some high octane for ME too in the form of a bottle of 90p Sazerac Rye Whiskey

 

[SnkBit]

Re: Fuel, mixing ratios, octane numbers,yeah, gearhead

Whats your average DA there Switch?

 

[Switchblade]

Re: Fuel, mixing ratios, octane numbers,yeah, gearhead

<---- Retard Alert

DA?

 

[SnkBit]

Re: Fuel, mixing ratios, octane numbers,yeah, gearhead

Density Altitude

 

[Switchblade]

Re: Fuel, mixing ratios, octane numbers,yeah, gearhead

got ya. I think I need one of them little tools that gives me all that air and wind dope for sure. Didn't needit for shooting but running engines in the south may be useful

 

[Lt. Arclight]

Re: Fuel, mixing ratios, octane numbers,yeah, gearhead

Its a beautiful thing how crisp and sporty they run---right before you HOLE A PISTON.

Racing an alcohol engine is a different ballgame. Its all about how much the engine needs at top rpm and then have bypasses take away the rest. On caution laps,close the secondary bypass,give it some fuel and the temps drop like a rock. 17/1 compression on my long track motor. Damn, I love that shit as much as guns.....

 

[Switchblade]

Re: Fuel, mixing ratios, octane numbers,yeah, gearhead

My piston tops are black with a very thin coating of carbon, cyinder walls look good, and plugs are a very clean slight tan. All this tells me the motor is happy running WOT and I know it's rich at low r's because that I cannot fix and have the acceleration I love with a 2500 - 3500 rpm launch. 1,2,3,2,1 toady at redline was not only loud but very crisp. It's the tuning in and out for the variance in either Shells or BP's stuff.
I miss my Sunoco like a mofo so I have to make due with other ways to get just a little higher octane that is dependable, won't knock with the close to 14:1 compression and just does what it should.
Shell's 93 runs a lot better than BP's 91 and takes less tuning(my bike is a little retarded like me). I think if I go 4G 93 to 1G 101 I will net a MON of 94 Octane(94.6) Specific Gravity will run between 775 and 800 after it's mixed.
Oh boy, lemme see now th elist of new tools I need:

Kestrel to check Air conditions, Humidity, Density
uh, specific gravity testing tool(used to know the name of it but forgot it...closed head injury 2001 messed me up real good)
Fuel jug and Funnel from VP(

She is gonna go for all that like a turd in a punch bowl )

 

[Crazy Dog ll]

Re: Fuel, mixing ratios, octane numbers,yeah, gearhead

secific gravity measuring tool-hydrometer. In the crude oil patch,ours are calbrated from20 to 80 with the tempertures. This gives the weight or density of the product. Your measurement are different and interesting....I will look it up.

 

[Switchblade]

Re: Fuel, mixing ratios, octane numbers,yeah, gearhead

VP MS101 has specific gravity of 800. Shell 93 V-Power Premium has specific gravity of 775 (at 60*) Does Specific Gravity go up, or down when temperature is warmer, as in 90*

Yes a hydrometer is what I was thinking of.
My understanding of mixology so far dictates that two simiar fuels when mixed will form a balance of property. I need to get to teh track and see if anyone is actually mixing their fuels or just running them as is. I know the drag racers wil be the mixers and the dirt circlers will run as is. I may also look into other fuels that VP offers and research exactly how high of a MON I need to stop detonation with the available tuning parameters I have to work with.
Truly an ongoing education for me, this fuel and tuning stuff. I have been around it, but never fully exploered it and am such a dillitante. I do not want to burn pistons or cylinders form running straight Toluene, or mixing toluene.
With 14:1 Compression +/- I do need to make sure to run top shelf fuel for the best results. Man I miss Sunoco like a mofo!

 

[cav has been]

Re: Fuel, mixing ratios, octane numbers,yeah, gearhead

Switch,in our area ( Outer BFE ) the Union 76 distributor stocks race gas in 5 gallon and 55 gallon containers in about four different grades. I believe 116-118 being the highest. In the past the distributor has been willing to contact the engineers at Union for specific info on their products. Have certainly been provided good intel in the past.
I would think any good distributor could inquire on your behalf. Some of those petroleum engineers seem plenty sharp, and some even seem willing to share.
Best of luck
ps, race gas $$ hurt your feelings, holed pistons and shattered ring lands suck!

 

[SnkBit]

Re: Fuel, mixing ratios, octane numbers,yeah, gearhead

I would consider running a higher octane fuel, unmixed. The higher octane fuels have the potential to produce more energy, if you have the compression to take advantage of it, which you do. By switching to the higher octane fuel you'd be able to put some timing back in the bike a make just a little more power but certainly have a quicker rev. Speak with your fuel rep about what they recommend for you. I'll talk to my fuel salesman when he gets back into the office this afternoon and see what he recommends as well.

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: Fuel, mixing ratios, octane numbers,yeah, gearhead

Most good hydrometers will have a small temp gauge inside them to give the temp compensation. We have a nice one here at the shop for getting the concentration of gasoline as we do have a few E85 stations around. That stuff is really starting to catch on in the hot rod world especially when it comes to supercharged, turbo charged applications. Makes your charge cooler.

 

[Switchblade]

Re: Fuel, mixing ratios, octane numbers,yeah, gearhead

ALky motors love that cold alky fuel...live on Meth they do!
The VP rep will be here when I get my can. The shop/track owner has already said he will call me with a time so I can ask away all my questions. A lot of the VP fuels are made by Sunoco but here, no Sunoco.
If I lived in a perfect world Union 76 would still be $.99 for 98 Octane like it was back in the day in Hawaii. Yes, we know it is maybe a MON of 94 Octane but man did it make that old 14:1 Honda with Wiseco Pistons, rods, and a seriously heavy SOHC bumpstick run like a scared cat.

Right before it got it's fairing, and the bars cut and welded to drop 3" and move forward 5"

Date was the day the picture was taken of the old photo

Now that was living the high life. No worries, solid check with mostly disposable income and all the attitude and let's party to go with it all

 

[Crazy Dog ll]

Re: Fuel, mixing ratios, octane numbers,yeah, gearhead

The crude oil hydrometer we use is to find the density of the oil for purchase,also to determine weight to legally load ones semi truck.Like the Mechanic says,the good hydrometers do come with built in tempertures guage. More info,check out US VP Racing Fuels.com

 

[Switchblade]

Re: Fuel, mixing ratios, octane numbers,yeah, gearhead

GACK! $225 for the Hydrometer kit! Highway roberry I tell ya for a dillitante entry!
I think I'll be good with 'word of the wise' on the mix. After using my google fu, I found a few pages on teh subject.
Unleaded Oxyenated will mix with Unleaded Oxyenated and the Specific Gravity of both mixed fuels will find a balance average between their numbers based on ratio. With that said a 4:1 93 V-Power Premium at +/- 759 will make the 800 of the MS101 drop to a level where my Mikuni will be happy(SG <= 779). Sunoco says the mix will work because both fuels are of similiar properties being unleaded and oxygenated with Ethanol. 5:1 will net a R+M/2 Octane of 94.6 which is right where I need it. I may run a 50:50 tank to see what it does and maybe even run it straight for a tank, but it will last longer if I mix 4:1 with the Shell 93

 

[duke54]

Re: Fuel, mixing ratios, octane numbers,yeah, gearhead

Hmmm? 14:1 wiseco , maybe web cam ? Sounds like a sportster i once owned an it idled like a rabbit shittin razor blades.

 

[Emergencynrse]

Re: Fuel, mixing ratios, octane numbers,yeah, gearhead

Interesting thread.


I blew up an MGB motor running AvGas with an octane booster.
Drove right out to the flight line and topped off. Played around with the "blue fuel" in a couple VW Beetles too.
(Pre '74/ Pre emissions)

Aviation fuel was rated @ 104-106 octane. I figured I was close to 110 with the booster. Never measured. Gave me full petal. Engine just never said "no". Would make my motors scream! Fast as hell...
Problem was you have to make sure you have enough <span style="font-weight: bold">OIL</span> in the thing. BOOM! Threw a rod right out the side of the block.
<Ahhh, youth>.

 

[Switchblade]

Re: Fuel, mixing ratios, octane numbers,yeah, gearhead

That Honda CB650 SOHC was bored to 714cc's and had a huge supply of 114 Low Lead direct from Pratt and Whitney motors from DC6's awaiting mechanical work. It ran so good, would not start unless it was rolled and jumped into gear(push button couldn't function) and burned up it's top end and wiring then got parted out to a couple cycle barns.


The 2002 Sporty has a ton of work done to it. 1250cc(76ci)Edelbrock heads with S&S roller rockers, fill welded and reshaped around Axtell 30* hemi pistons with custom oversized bushings, flywheels shaved 1.5#, Redshift 585 Custom Ground cams, Crane adjustable pushrods, Fueling tappets, Fueling oil pump, Zippers pushrod blocks, Daytona Twin Tech ignition, S&S calibrator, 530 Chain conversion on custom sprockets, Works Billet Racer shocks, Works progressive fork sproings, Gold valve Emulators, Storz rear sets, Sun Lightweight Alloy rims. RB Racing LSR Pro Stock pipe, Mikuni 42 HSR and OEM cover on K&N air cleaner into an S&S intake. Compression is a nominal 13.5:1+/-
She runs like a raped ape and is according to a local bike mech,"Stupid Fast...Stupid FAST!"(I think he got skeered when she opened up at 4250rpm and the front wheel came up about 4" and ran hard to 7350 before the rev limit hit) That 3rd gear power hit is fun as hell at WFO

She runs great with 94 - 96 Octane fuel with zero detonation and deceleration issues. Anything less can be detuned but not as effective as using better fuel

 

[Lt. Arclight]

Re: Fuel, mixing ratios, octane numbers,yeah, gearhead

This one is 410Cubic Inch All aluminum,Hillborn Fuel injected. 815hp. one gallon of methanol per 1/2 mile at 8800rpm.17.5:1 compression $38,000(back in 2000!!). 3 shows and you are changing all the valve springs. 12 shows it goes back to get freshened up.Just the rod bolts are around $800.Great way to turn alot of money into alittle money!

About 20 minutes to swap a motor-complete ready to run less than 390 lbs with oil.

 

[Switchblade]

Re: Fuel, mixing ratios, octane numbers,yeah, gearhead

*DROOL*!

That Hillborn injection is the SHIT! It makes a motor sound freakin SWEET! My Pop still can't figure out why I want to spend $3300 on one instead of a supercharger for the 'Stang. On the 357ci FSB it bumps hp from the 4bbl 750cfm 545hp up to 625hp at 1200cfm with Comp Cams Thumpr series cam kits and valve train(designed for, then from for the street from Rolex DTP racers)


On Topic:
VP Racing finally got back with me today! Shell Premium V-Power 93 is nominally a 725+/- Specific Gravity Fuel. MS101 @ 101 R+M/2 is 800 SG. When mixed at 50-50 the SG will balance exactly to the average since both are unleaded fuels. This holds true for both all leaded and all unleaded fuels when each is mixed with the same type of fuel.
When I mix 5G Shell 93 with 1G MS101 I will obtain 94 - 96 MON and a 740+/- SG which means I don't have to play with jets but will have to alter the idle circuit's Air Bleed back in maybe a turn or two and make a small adjustment on overall timing advancing from where I am currently at to run the straight Shell 93.
JOoooyyyY!

 

[Switchblade]

Re: Fuel, mixing ratios, octane numbers,yeah, gearhead

WOO HAAA! in TWO WEEKS I get my hands on a Special Order container of Motorsport 103 for $58! MS103 is a MON 99/R+M/2 103 Unleaded Oxygenated fuel. It holds an SG of 743 so it will mix perfectly with Shell 93 V-Power Premium. At a 5:1 ratio I will net a R+M/2 Octane of 96...PERFECT! Al I have to do is advance a bit, tweek Air Bleed a couple turns and I am back in the business of making Rice see red and sniff exhaust wondering what the hell that Harley ate for lunch

VP got back to me with a phone call, adn gave me the supplier's number. She recognized me by my purchase request and made a quick change to item, raised overall price $8 and we are SOLID! Oh man I am freakin Excited! I think a good cigar and some seriously good bourbon are in effect for the next 12 nights....Panty 6 left for NC to visit friends with No2 Son so he can hang with his friend. It's me, No3 and the dog so life is going to be right quiet!