Fundamental frank vs the free recoilers

[pitdog85]

So I completely agree with franks views on the free recoiling bs. Since when is free recoiling considered a technique in "practical" shooting. Even in f class it is a joke the original intent of f class was for older shooters to be able to shoot with a scope when there eyes were no longer good enough for TR. f class weight limits and Intent were originally around a simple Harris bipod and rear bag proper marksmen. Look at f class now you have $2000 front rests with a lever for micro adjustments and free recoiling set ups. What happened to the original intent?? I get that free recoiling is a thing In bench rest these guys are pushing the limits of what's possible from the equipment.

Free recoiling in f class and MORE SO in a sport that is considered practical shooting Is the biggest joke going around. Put a weight limit on it and ban it period or maybe change the name to practical benchrest!!!

 

[5RWill]

I agree and don't mind different approaches my thing is that matches are almost catering to a do whatever philosophy or it seems that way. Seems the train of thought is almost becoming bring the kitchen sink to stabilize your position however possible. Where they should be relying on the fundamentals which is what people like Phil, Frank, and Jacob drive home and what the match should oriented around. I don't even think a weight limit is that necessary just limit the damn accessories and increase positional stages and movement. You could certainly orient stages around the fundamentals which could arguably penalize people running the heaviest rifle they could possibly muster.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Okay, so you hate free recoil. Care to explain why?

 

[308pirate]

So I completely agree with franks views on the free recoiling bs. Since when is free recoiling considered a technique in "practical" shooting. Even in f class it is a joke the original intent of f class was for older shooters to be able to shoot with a scope when there eyes were no longer good enough for TR. f class weight limits and Intent were originally around a simple Harris bipod and rear bag proper marksmen. Look at f class now you have $2000 front rests with a lever for micro adjustments and free recoiling set ups. What happened to the original intent?? I get that free recoiling is a thing In bench rest these guys are pushing the limits of what's possible from the equipment.

Free recoiling in f class and MORE SO in a sport that is considered practical shooting Is the biggest joke going around. Put a weight limit on it and ban it period or maybe change the name to practical benchrest!!!

Intent means nothing. Game the rules to the limit.

 

[Derek200]

It seems like anything you can lug around and meet time requirements with and shoot however you want is practical.

I haven’t ever competed in any rifle events. But competed in IDPA and USPSA for pistol. Everyone wants rules to make it match their perception of shooting. But the nice thing about these sports is that they have the ability to bring about innovation and advance shooting when there are less rules.

The down side is that the expense of being competitive goes way up. But the reality is that I was ever only going to be slightly mediocre anyway

 

[LRShooter101]

First - don't like the way certain events/matches are run, then don't participate in them. Pretty sure no one if forcing you to shoot in any of them.
If you want to lay on your belly with all of the supporting equipment that you can afford and shoot at paper targets, as long as the outcome is what YOU desire (and is safe), then more power to you! I learned more how to read the wind shooting F-Open because I took my instability as a shooter out of the equation and was allowed to focus on that variable. I learned more about developing extremely accurate and consist loads shooting Benchrest, because once again I was able to eliminate the other variables that could impact the outcome and just focus on the performance of the rifle and ammo. I am pretty sure most F-Class shooters don't have any delusions of grandeur thinking that they are going to go out and win a PRS match or be a really effective positional shooter in the field.

Second - I love how someone has to pontificate what is the "proper way" to shoot a rifle.
I have watched more people than I can remember "preaching this is how you MUST do it" to only figure out after I stopped buying into the BS, that there are many ways to do anything. When I was shooting prone, I religiously kept my heels on the ground, stayed directly behind the rifle, and always put a positive load on the bipod. Then I watched multiple shooters win multiple matches doing none of those things.

*EDIT
This CAN'T be the proper way to shoot.

That shooter has a pile of trophies, so I am pretty sure he is going to tell you to go pound sand when you try to correct his "deficiencies"!

I finally figured out, what ultimately matters is the outcome/results, as long as you can produce them consistently, the techniques you use really are of no consequence based on how they measure up to what someone else is doing.

If the outcome of YOUR shooting efforts is what YOU desire, and you can achieve it repeatedly, then who gives a rats ass if you did ,or did not, do what someone else says you must do.

 

[Derek200]

But heels on the ground is how those little plastic army men are made, so it must be the “right” way!

 

[Killswitch Engage]

First - don't like the way certain events/matches are run, then don't participate in them. Pretty sure no one if forcing you to shoot in any of them.
If you want to lay on your belly with all of the supporting equipment that you can afford and shoot at paper targets, as long as the outcome is what YOU desire (and is safe), then more power to you! I learned more how to read the wind shooting F-Open because I took my instability as a shooter out of the equation and was allowed to focus on that variable. I learned more about developing extremely accurate and consist loads shooting Benchrest, because once again I was able to eliminate the other variables that could impact the outcome and just focus on the performance of the rifle and ammo. I am pretty sure most F-Class shooters don't have any delusions of grandeur thinking that they are going to go out and win a PRS match or be a really effective positional shooter in the field.

Second - I love how someone has to pontificate what is the "proper way" to shoot a rifle.
I have watched more people than I can remember "preaching this is how you MUST do it" to only figure out after I stopped buying into the BS, that their are many ways to do anything. When I was shooting prone, I religiously kept my heels on the ground, stayed directly behind the rifle, and always put a positive load on the bipod. Then I watched multiple shooters win multiple matches doing none of those things.

I finally figured out, what ultimately matters is the outcome/results, as long as you can produce them consistently, the techniques you use really are of no consequence based on how they measure up to what someone else is doing.

If the outcome of YOUR shooting efforts is what YOU desire, and you can achieve it repeatedly, then who gives a rats ass if you did ,or did not, do what someone else says you must do.

this^^^^^

if your ass isnt out shooting in these comps then save your armchair opinions on it. the bullshit of straight dumb fucking free recoil like the video phillip posted is exactly whats not going on. i cannot say i have EVER seen any one shoot 100% free recoil in a prs even. no one would. jim see or no jim see.

theres different techniques going on that still drive the rifle. let you maintain sight picture, follow through and shot spotting that isnt your typical head/shoulders marrying for recoil. basically.....you dont know what you dont know.

 

[Kadams1563]

Free recoil has its place but you can’t rely on it for every stage.

I don’t see your problem with it. Are they getting the hits required with it?

If you shoot PRS/NRL you don’t have the space, time, or position to get everything fundamentally correct. If you did then more shooters would be more focused on fundamentals.

The gaming shooting sports have evolved equipment and skills much more then any other discipline. If it works in the gaming circuit then it works. Those guys are much harder on gear then just about anyone else.

 

[morganlamprecht]

another "strict fundamentals are the best way" thread...only on the internets, not the score board

 

[Precision Underground]

First - don't like the way certain events/matches are run, then don't participate in them. Pretty sure no one if forcing you to shoot in any of them.
If you want to lay on your belly with all of the supporting equipment that you can afford and shoot at paper targets, as long as the outcome is what YOU desire (and is safe), then more power to you! I learned more how to read the wind shooting F-Open because I took my instability as a shooter out of the equation and was allowed to focus on that variable. I learned more about developing extremely accurate and consist loads shooting Benchrest, because once again I was able to eliminate the other variables that could impact the outcome and just focus on the performance of the rifle and ammo. I am pretty sure most F-Class shooters don't have any delusions of grandeur thinking that they are going to go out and win a PRS match or be a really effective positional shooter in the field.

Second - I love how someone has to pontificate what is the "proper way" to shoot a rifle.
I have watched more people than I can remember "preaching this is how you MUST do it" to only figure out after I stopped buying into the BS, that there are many ways to do anything. When I was shooting prone, I religiously kept my heels on the ground, stayed directly behind the rifle, and always put a positive load on the bipod. Then I watched multiple shooters win multiple matches doing none of those things.

*EDIT
This CAN'T be the proper way to shoot.

That shooter has a pile of trophies, so I am pretty sure he is going to tell you to go pound sand when you try to correct his "deficiencies"!

I finally figured out, what ultimately matters is the outcome/results, as long as you can produce them consistently, the techniques you use really are of no consequence based on how they measure up to what someone else is doing.

If the outcome of YOUR shooting efforts is what YOU desire, and you can achieve it repeatedly, then who gives a rats ass if you did ,or did not, do what someone else says you must do.

What caliber would you guess he is shooting there? Serious question, not being argumentative. I ask because I have shot unbraked 6.5 creedmoor for a long time and I shoot it very well (.3-.4 groups on atlas and rear bag, easy hits out to 1200). I am getting to know my unbraked 300 Norma Mag and I will tell you I was getting away with a lot when shooting the creedmoor. If I am not nearly perfect on fundamentals when shooting the 300 the target lets me know very quickly. Straight behind the rifle is a huge one when you are shooting something with recoil. Not saying that is the ONLY way because I firmly agree that there is always at least a few ways that will work. I actually thought when I was shooting just the creedmoor that I was one of those guys that could get things done a little differently. With the creedmoor, I was. With the 300, nope. I have to be very deliberate with being straight on the rifle, pulling into the shoulder, and 90 on the trigger. Groups with the new gun went from 1-1.5 moa to .5 - .7 moa just getting those things cleaned up.

 

[5RWill]

My point by the the do whatever philosophy was in regard to basically bringing the “rest” with you in regards to stabilization. Paying to play if you will or gaming idk what it’s called I know bringing x amount of accessories to circumvent shooting a barricade seems to defeat the purpose of shooting said barricade in the first place. I understand that it works but i didn’t think that was the point. Of course certain matches do limit the amount of bags you can use so there’s that. And ultimately that’s what will set the rules; the matches. How you shoot a rifle is how you shoot a rifle. It’s a game.

 

[Lowlight]

I am adapting to it,

Competitions, when we started them, were meant to validate training. Rifles Only was a training facility and much of good COF stuff was designed to mimic what we learned in training or the feedback we go from the military guys in terms of mission success. We married the two.

Since the PRS, the gaming and competition side has completely changed the way people approach competitions. I don't like a lot of it, I think much of it is contrived and not very practical, but it's their game. If they changed the COF and adjusted the way things are done from time to time, it would be much better. Instead, they repeat the same stuff over and over which allows the shooters to adapt and defeat the stage. They give them time and practice so a better way to shoot the stage can be devised.

The gear race aspect is very important. I see the competitions today going the way of F Class. It's a direct line. I shot F Class both before and after the target change. It's an engineering race and the more money you invest the better you will do. This limits participation in a lot of ways. In a word, it has the potential to disenfranchise new shooters. That part has been played out in more ways than one.

You can buy a hit, and honestly, we did not want that to be the case originally. We thought about it because I saw it in F Class.

Since everyone is out there thinking I just hate on it, I actually made a move prior to this post or even seeing it to change a competition section to a "resource" section and I have a plan to help. I am not gonna spill it until I start, but my focus will not move to solutions and suggestions and forget the other stuff. Clearly, the shooters drinking the Frank HaterAid don't care and left up to them, nothing will change because the top guys are benefiting from this... so instead I will inspire to think deeper.

As an example,

The Barricade was usually shot, Sitting Kneeling Standing, where the shooter picked the platform that fits their size. We did not designate a place to shoot from, only a position to use. My barricade design which I approached the PRS about before they did theirs, has two sizes to it. A short side and long side which still meets the PRS Spec. By saying, 3 shots, sitting, 3 kneeling, 3 standing, under time you solved several issues. You address the main position found, you requirement movement, and you fundamentally built good positions. There is one more twist which I will leave out, but it's an important one.

I am well aware not every stage is a free recoil stage, but more and more stages are addressed with the same two solutions. Bag or Tripod, or both combined. That is an easy fix, one area is movement, I see a lot less, another is target size, and other is gear deployment on the clock.

It goes back to the removal of the pistol stages in a PRS match. We always liked pistol stages to fight to or from your bolt gun. It became unsafe, (I was at Core when a guy shot his leg) and because the top PRS didn't like it, they removed it. We saw the pistol as a precisions rifle back up and a mandatory accessory. But once a guy shoots his leg, all that is out the window. Bad stage design.

Why I like the field matches better.

Free recoil is a tool for the toolbox, I always try to avoid it personally but I can do it with little effort. it is easier to let the rifle do the work, so I certainly could. In my opinion part of growing the sport is having a focus on the practical applications vs the gear buying. Don't get me wrong, I am all about the gear, but that only gets you so far. You have to appeal to people in other ways, and one of them is the fundamental training you can take away. Yes, a guy can free recoil his elk hunt, but the first time he sees it in a video and tries it on his own with his hunting rifle, the missing pieces will bite him in the head, potentially, literally. So without the education, it becomes a negative from a perception standpoint.

The point about me, when one on one with shooters, we agree on so much, guys just dont' like bombastic approach which I get. The world is changing, they immediately insert their feelings to the conversation so I have to be a kinder and gentler Frank when explaining my position as so much is taken out of context.

 

[Basher]

The gear race aspect is a huge turn off for me. I'm somewhat of a gear whore because I like gadgets, but with much of it nowadays, I can't justify the expense. Case in point is the whole tripod craze. Good, quality tripods and all the doo-dads that go with them are expensive! And I really have no desire to haul around 10 different bags. One or two maybe, but that's it. I'm far and away more interested in learning to master the rifle and what resources I have available to me at the time, and I don't plan to haul all my gear with me on hunts when I finally have the time to get out. Field course matches with some pistol work sound like a blast, but then again, I have far more experience with pistols than precision rifles, so maybe I don't fear using them in a match as much as others.

Seeing a series, league, or whatever that takes a more field based approach to things would be a hoot. Ithink it would open the door to more new shooters, and honestly, I think it would up retention/lower turnover. With less money tied up in gear, it would allow folks to shoot more, and it would offer more challenges to keep people interested since they'd have more to work on with their own skill sets.

 

[morganlamprecht]

That is an easy fix, one area is movement, I see a lot less, another is target size, and other is gear deployment on the clock.

It goes back to the removal of the pistol stages in a PRS match. We always liked pistol stages to fight to or from your bolt gun. It became unsafe, (I was at Core when a guy shot his leg) and because the top PRS didn't like it, they removed it. We saw the pistol as a precisions rifle back up and a mandatory accessory. But once a guy shoots his leg, all that is out the window. Bad stage design.

we worked in more of both of these in our club match this past weekend...one stage you had to hit to move on 3 different pistol targets at varying distance to eat up time, in order to move to the rifle which included moving about 40 yds on the side and up a small hill...similar to one of the stages at the 2015 maybe? Hide Cup

we also put in lots of back and forth target transitions between movements

every stage you had to start with gear in hand and no pre-staging...everyone ive talked to after the match said they really enjoyed it even tho it was more work to get thru the stages

 

[Fig]

That was almost too reasonable LL. Now I am worried your are actually circling back behind me and setting me up for an ambush...

If you are one of these who thinks FR is not "fundamentals" and loading into a bipod is the ONLY way, then how can you even shoot CM, or other low recoil cartridges? There is ZERO advantage in them other than they're low recoil! Why not declare everyone who shoots those cartridges is a stooge, and make .308 or .300WM the only cartridge to shoot?

Why, because it's all bullshit. FR is a way to get a stable position off a rickety, shitty baracade/shooting position where loading into the rifle DOES NOT WORK!

Anyone who is threatened by a technique because it doesn't follow the doctrine is the definition of myopic. How much of the old sniper manuals is dated/wrong?

To me this is all a non-issue. I learned FR techniques from Jim See, and I use them in just about every comp often cleaning those stages. I am grateful for his teaching and instruction, and he does not think it's the end all be all, so why would anyone else?

 

[Lowlight]

Loading the bipod has nothing to do with FR, loading the bipod is a prone endeavor.

You don't have to load the bipod, the main issue many of us have is not putting your shoulder into the stock.

It's removing the shooter. Why it has become an issue is:

Lighter Recoiling Caliber works better
Lighter trigger almost bordering on unsafe when used in a stage with movement.
Heavier rifle, adding weights
Contrived stages that have not adapted

The more you focus on these factors, the easier it is, we try to be consistent across platforms.

 

[earthquake]

I'm not sure what the problem is. No one is holding a gun to anyone's head saying you have to use 6+ bags at a match. Ya don't want to use them? Don't! You do want to, and the MD says you can? Do so! Whether it's "field" based or not, I can run a SAP solo sack on a pile of rocks just as well as on a toilet or airplane or swingset or whatever.

And why would anyone want to limit methods? Just to show that you're a "better" marksman than Billy-Bob-Lots-O-Bags, because you got more points than him by not using those bags or FR? I'm sure the top guys in the Series can and do shoot circles around most, even w/o all the accoutrements.

Again, the gear and the methods are optional...they are a tool in the toolbox. Fundamentals are great and not to be ignored, but if other methods come around that make us more deadly hunters, or more proficient marksmen, then they should be explored and utilized.

I myself was against bags, til I learned and started using them. I was skeptical about free-recoil, until I said, fuck-it, one day and decided to practice it. My scores on the PRS barricade stage went from average of 2-3/8 to 8/8 regularly. Not always under time and movement duress does one have the luxury of honing in on fundamentals. FR is a tool i now employ on that stage. Does that mean I suck? Maybe...but I'm putting rounds on target, which is the objective.

This isn't directed at anyone, just my $0.02 from my experience. Fundamentals + other tools are effective in all aspects of shooting...I'm still a noob, though I've been doing this for 25+ years. Use bags and FR, or don't....just stop bemoaning dudes who do. If that's what's preventing you from participating in a match, then that's sad. If you're truly a better marksman, then you will beat Billy-Bags most of the time anyway.

Caylen said something one time when we were discussing this stuff at a match, to the effect of, "...if these tools and processes are making our snipers deadlier down range, then we should adopt them." I'm paraphrasing a bit but you get the idea. Go shoot, learn, have fun!

 

[CuTm]

I think we should be learning to handle any gun in the same way we would if in a fight or aproaching one. I guess for an example, I can’t imagine calling in multiple coyotes shooting one, then trying to shoot others on the run with free recoil. You’re imagination can create other examples of this. I remember being really young maybe 5 and my father having me pull the trigger on my .243 win and hitting targets at 600 yards. All I had to do was pull the trigger and not bump anything . Was anything learned or gained from this? As that 5 year old could I now smoke anything 600 and under ? Hell no.

 

[Fig]

Ok. To me it's sort of a distinction without a difference. My point is there are shooting positions in competition (positions you would try to AVOID if shooting in the real world) where pressing into/loading into the stock is not practical or even possible.

I may have never even used "true" free recoil. Getting behind a rifle with the my shoulder on the stock is how it's most comfortable and I shoot best. To me not pressing/loading into the stock IS, at least what I call, free recoil. I certainly don't seek a yoga position or try to free recoil if it can be avoided (it's far from ideal), but it seems to me that some stages are set up specifically to test this skill, and make it the best way to connect.

I find the weird stages and the ones where it's more difficult to get a stable position to be really fun ones in a way that prone isn't. They're usually the shorter distances, and to me it seems they are usually pretty well balanced. I've seen a lot of stages gamed just because the RO didn't really get it when the first squad came through, and you can't very well allow one squad to game it and then change the rules. To me these are broken stages that just didn't work out, and maybe the next time the competition is held they'll make a note that you can't deploy your bi-pod, or something like that, to prevent people from gaming it and so they shoot off the worse position (as designed).

But, to me if you want to gripe it makes more sense to gripe about the gear than it is the techniques that accompany it.

Really, maybe everyone should be shooting the same rifle in the same caliber if you want to make it "more pure", or whatever.

I have a hell of a time, and as long as the rules are the same for everyone I just go with it.

 

[Sheldon N]

Contrived stages that have not adapted

While I know the "skills stages" are a constant and we see 1 or 2 of them per match (usually as a tiebreak) I see a lot of MD's trying to come up with new or interesting shooting scenarios.

What would be the adaptation you would propose? I'd love to see fresh ideas.

 

[Lowlight]

Contrived,

Like the platform stages and then letting guys stuff bags under the platform to prevent it from moving, in your minds that equal innovation. Intent, engaged targets from an unstable platform, solution, stuff thing under it to stop it from moving.

Yes I have solutions and idea, when I am ready I will post them in my new section

Try reading above Morgans reply to my response early.

your post, @Sheldon N is exactly my point and my issue with much of this, I can write a mini white paper the subject and you pull out one thing you dont' like, the word "Contrived" and then try to overlay it to me putting something down. yet I gave you a full-throated explanation which was completely ignored.

Caylen, is infinitely more against FR than I am and posted novels in the same thread I am being attacked for. In fact he wrote me that very day and said he is gonna be jumping in more so in 2019 and refuses to use it.

 

[Sheldon N]

your post, @Sheldon N is exactly my point and my issue with much of this, I can write a mini white paper the subject and you pull out one thing you dont' like, the word "Contrived" and then try to overlay it to me putting something down. yet I gave you a full-throated explanation which was completely ignored.

Easy there, wasn't trying to attack you.

Agree that altering barricades to make them stable is in the "gamer" category and should be stopped by a good RO, but that's not the sport as a whole nor does it make the sport one of contrived stages that have not adapted.

I'm serious when I ask what other shooting stage ideas you have, because this is basically a sport of "object supported positional shooting" with the rare offhand/kneeling/seated stage thrown in. And there's only so many objects you can shoot off of. Just thinking through the last few matches it has included car, trailer, guard rail, cattle gate, rocks of all shapes and sizes, tires, tank traps, ladders, traditional barricades, logs, stumps, t-posts, fence psots, etc. After a while it's all the same.... supported shooting at varying heights. Doesn't really matter what's underneath the gun, put a bag on it, put the gun on it, get in a good position get stable and shoot. (and no, I don't free recoil)

To me the next level in the sport is when mental complexity is added. More targets, more movement, complex shooting order, panning across a wide field of view where target acquisition matters a lot, getting target order on the clock by rolling dice or drawing a card or whatever. I see more and more of that in matches, and I like it a lot.

I think it's anything but contrived and goes back to a real fundamental skill... keeping your head straight when you're under pressure.

 

[Lowlight]

Again,

Simple fixes are movement and target sizes, along with target sizes, what you eluded too is also something many of these matches don't do, changing target placement. Instead of shooting 1 target every time, which is also contrived and one of the things I was not fond of at Rifles Only. Adding in targets of varying sizes across a wider landscape helps. Move, Locate, Shoot, Move Locate Shoot.

Sitting position off a barricade, 1/2 MOA, Kneeling Position, 1 MOA, Standing Position 2 MOA is one just example. Also changing up the angle to the targets, as was noted in the Brian Allan video, he spoke about guys physically moving a barricade to face the target. There are ways to interrupt that and slow the process down. Off angles are small, but enough to make you hesitate. If you have a large 2 MOA target center, and then a small one off to an angle not next to each, the wind call becomes more important. Edge of the plate is not always an option as you change up the target size.

Add in pistol stages to mix up the stage, instead, they remove them all cuz guys did poorly or because safety was an issue. Fact is every SHC & Bash prior to 2011 had very cool, fun, moving pistol stages, you actually shot along the entire 100-yard short range, then up the berm and rifle shot off the top. Carrying everything, dragging an 80LBS Bag, while shooting pistol and rifle across 100 yards. Fun. It only took like 2 years after the Rifles Only stuff for a guy to shoot themselves in the leg at a PRS Match. How did we manage so many more events with no issues?

Now it just copies 3GUN Stages in short little windows with minimal movement. You walk up, place your 26LBS 6 Dasher on a bag, FR, FR, FR, all done high five your friends on the way off while exchanging data.

You can do a lot with targets to increase the skill level, rather than stick a 2MOA plate out there with a bunch of wash rinse repeat. Try making them progressively smaller. Shot one, 2 MOA, shot two 1 MOA, shot 3 1/2 MOA, the reason much of these other techniques work so well is the targets are generous enough to absorb everything. If you try FR on a tiny target that will show the wind errors, you force the shooter to pay more attention. No I get it with a 26LBS Dasher with your support hand applying 15LBS of pressure down, the rifle will not move, so you can see the target. Limit weight to under 20# and things will eventually level off. Then again, watch the 22s come out when the 22CM arrives.

 

[Sheldon N]

Can't say I'm a fan of the weight race, but it's a real advantage to have a heavier gun so I understand it. Doubtful we'll see rule changes on that front... too many manufacturers with new products to sell. I do like the idea of stage design with lots of movement making it less attractive and to "punish" the guys with 30lb rifles.

Last match we had a run-n-gun stage that was 400 yards long across a ridge line. 7 different shooting locations and targets, and you had to carry everything you brought to the match with you as you ran and shot the course. It was fun.

 

[Lowlight]

Honestly

I think people (MD) go as simple as possible and in a rush to "Promote the Sport" the series let anything go trying to add matches, which in many cases was the same old thing. The way certain shooters criticize MDs and just do what they want anyway, it's simple to stick a target out there, add an obstacle they know will get negotiated however the top guys want, and they let have at it. As long as the recognized guys do well, and they take something decent home to resell, nothing negative will get said. That was a great match, Ya what made it great, I did well... next case.

It is part of the mentality where it is more about the hit than the value in the journey.

The thing with the course of fire, just give them something to shoot at, the easier they make it, the more ROI the MD gets. hence the term "Meatball" match. Not my invention or term, but used often.

Like with the heels, I don't take it seriously. Maxine Nix asked, she bought the heels, and I shot the stages in them. I never had to move more than 5 yards, I could do it heels and still top 15 the thing with an AR15. I don't care, I don't try, I go to watch and interact with people I associate with more so than taking the game seriously. It's my vacation, I can be a number and doesn't matter. Hell I was more concerned with getting my back taped up than how I performed.

We worked at it, I just looked in my desk, I found several old COF sheets and several pages from the military guys who kept a record of their combat. I have a COF from 2007 on my desk now. We kept records.

The simplest solution is the best or is it.

 

[Lowlight]

Since I am camped out in front of the computer,

Here is another thought, the Match Booklets.

it's a crutch, it removes the surprise and allows the competitor to game the stage ahead of time, and use the wording against the MD if a ruling is needed.

For places like a Core, K&M, RO, etc, who have dedicated facilities, it's not a big deal to have a book. Nothing there really changes, as they cannot really invent more space or radically adjust the layout of the property. So a booklet in a match like those, I get. However, it removes an important element to Practical Shooting.

to me, this was part of the initial problem, forcing people to include match booklets to help the shooter navigate something that is so blatantly obvious. When you look at the history, the original intent, and how all that has changed, it's here I think the adapting fell down. The inability to spring something on the shooters. In my 2007 COF I found, it has a segment called "Filler Stages" it's the stuff we would adjust on the fly. At the last minute would look at something, shoot it to test and decide to change it. The matchbook requirement limits this, creating more work, so in my mind most would test it, not really like it, but say, the hell with it, because we already had the books printed. Sure I have seen corrections and additions made but far and few between.

I guess it comes down to practical vs gaming since it appears to have moved far beyond practical, to Tactical Benchrest, does it need a reshaping in how it is described and talked about?

 

[morganlamprecht]

i would 100% enjoy matches more if every stage was blind and shot in a single file order

squad moves to a holding area, shooter 1 goes, cant be seen by the waiting shooters, finishes and goes to the waiting area...shooter 2 follows and so on...hard to set up logistically some places, but would be a great test...shooters can talk and exchange ideas after its shot

 

[D_TROS]

Again,

Simple fixes ....

One of your best posts ive read. My biggest pet peeve (ie issue??) right now in the sport is every tom/dik/harry with a piece of property thinks they can put on a match. Several obvious problems there, the least of which is no match experience, no imagination, no idea how to challenge shooters, limited steel to work with, and what you get is shitty matches with 99%+ of the stages have 3 or less pieces of steel (placed with no imagination) and as you mentioned, short times with no movement. Shoot off a t post. Shoot off a ladder. shoot off a 4x4. LAME!! get some imagination.

PRS shot themselves in the foot with no match director requirements. And the NRL is quickly following. I hate the reminiscing but the old sniper hide cups had either 10 targets per stage, or 5 and 2 positions. Never less than 5. Miss that.



Oh and dum OP. Complain about real world techniques that are proven? You wont see me complain as you start another post about how the prize table sucks because you pick in the 75+ range and there is nothing left. (Not to open another rats hole that every NON shooter cries about)


GL,
DT

 

[LH_Gina]

i would 100% enjoy matches more if every stage was blind and shot in a single file order

squad moves to a holding area, shooter 1 goes, cant be seen by the waiting shooters, finishes and goes to the waiting area...shooter 2 follows and so on...hard to set up logistically some places, but would be a great test...shooters can talk and exchange ideas after its shot

Mo, there was a match like that last season. It was an NRL match in NM at Steel Safari. From what I've heard it was similar to the CD matches except they gave us target distances. I can't remember if there was a picture or not, but if there was it rudimentary at best. That match was tough, but one of the most fun ones I shot last year.

 

[slayer 2c]

I wonder if during the early growing years of NASCAR they had this argument, when "stock cars" became "race cars". These matches seem to me to becoming less tactical and more gimmick. This is the direction the sport seems to be going, I get it...... I choose not to shoot it. If a MD allows "pro's" to game the stages they will and do. And things like free recoil and 30lbs 308's is what you get. So be it you can't fault them for it. Hell if your playing the game, and lets face it that's what it is a game, and your not "gaming the system" it's your choice but I can't believe you can be truly competitive if you don't. But lets get back to the real issue, FR is not precision rifle shooting, its a tool used to score points in a game, while doing its best to circumvent the intent of the stage on which it is being used. Has there ever been a free recoil stage at a national event? I'd bet not, and why is that? Because its a gimmick. Anyone can play a game, figure out ways to score points, and game a system.

 

[Timo Turl]

i would 100% enjoy matches more if every stage was blind and shot in a single file order

squad moves to a holding area, shooter 1 goes, cant be seen by the waiting shooters, finishes and goes to the waiting area...shooter 2 follows and so on...hard to set up logistically some places, but would be a great test...shooters can talk and exchange ideas after its shot

I’m tempted to try CD matches or even Mammoth - a match with more mental and physical aspects is starting to appeal.

 

[LRShooter101]

Back to the topic of what is a valid shooting technique, versus how should we be shooting PRS matches which is where this has gone.

If you showed up with 2-3 tools in your toolbox as a carpenter, plumber, or electrician, you would probably find yourself out of a job very quickly because your ability to do your job would be extremely limited. Someone who has a toolbox with a lot more tools is going to be able to get the job done much more quickly and effectively.

What ultimately matters? HAVING THE TOOLS YOU NEED and GETTING THE JOB DONE!

Whatever job you find yourself doing, Military or LE Sniper, Competitive Shooter, Hunter, or whatever else, it is up to YOU to figure out what tools YOU need in YOUR toolbox to get YOUR job DONE! Reality Check, not everyone is going to need, or have the option to use, the same tools.

Free Recoil is tool, and it either works for YOUR job, or it doesn't. If you are dumb enough to try and use a hammer when you should be using a wrench, that's on YOU for being a dumb-ass!

The way some people are talking in this thread, we should all be shooting like we were 100 years ago. If you dare try to add anything to the mix that might improve your outcome, then you are deviating from the "Fundamentals" and you are doomed to fail. Fortunately some people are willing to try and move forward or we would all still be standing in ranks firing smooth bore muskets in volleys!

My Dad who is a finish carpenter, uses a tape measure and a laser tape, a hand saw and electric saw, and a hammer and a pneumatic nail gun. He is constantly adding tools to his toolbox, and if there is something out there that is going to allow him to GET THE JOB DONE quickly and effectively, then you can bet he is going to have it and use it when appropriate. If he showed up with the "Fundamentals" of a hammer, hand saw, and tape, he could get the job done, but he would spend days doing work he could get done in hours with the proper tools.

IF $#!@ works USE IT! If it doesn't, then DON'T!

The proof is in YOUR OUTCOME, NOT in SOMEONE ELSE'S OPINION of what YOUR outcome should be!

And last BUT NOT LEAST, tools are only as good as the person using them. If your mastery of your craft sucks, then your outcome is going to suck, no matter how many tools you have!

 

[morganlamprecht]

I wonder if during the early growing years of NASCAR they had this argument, when "stock cars" became "race cars". These matches seem to me to becoming less tactical and more gimmick. This is the direction the sport seems to be going, I get it...... I choose not to shoot it. If a MD allows "pro's" to game the stages they will and do. And things like free recoil and 30lbs 308's is what you get. So be it you can't fault them for it. Hell if your playing the game, and lets face it that's what it is a game, and your not "gaming the system" it's your choice but I can't believe you can be truly competitive if you don't. But lets get back to the real issue, FR is not precision rifle shooting, its a tool used to score points in a game, while doing its best to circumvent the intent of the stage on which it is being used. Has there ever been a free recoil stage at a national event? I'd bet not, and why is that? Because its a gimmick. Anyone can play a game, figure out ways to score points, and game a system.

my main match gun that i shoot best is a AIAT in 6.5 creed...factory trigger, not the new lighter comp model...i also dont free recoil...id say im competitive

anyone else can be too if they quit complaining about how everyone else is shooting and figure out out to hit targets themselves

 

[morganlamprecht]

Mo, there was a match like that last season. It was an NRL match in NM at Steel Safari. From what I've heard it was similar to the CD matches except they gave us target distances. I can't remember if there was a picture or not, but if there was it rudimentary at best. That match was tough, but one of the most fun ones I shot last year.

ill look into this one also...i was trying to rally a couple guys to make the trip to the PPRC or the CD matches this past year, but none of us could get on the same schedules. soon tho...

 

[Killswitch Engage]

pprc is exactly what youre looking for. all blind stages and unknown distances meant to be ranged on the clock. tons of fun and really the way most matches should be,

 

[Mormegil87]

my main match gun that i shoot best is a AIAT in 6.5 creed...factory trigger, not the new lighter comp model...i also dont free recoil...id say im competitive anyone else can be too if they quit complaining about how everyone else is shooting and figure out out to hit targets themselves

This, right here, is the attitude more of us need to take.

 

[earthquake]

In all honesty, I won't be shooting many, if any, PRS 2-day matches next year. Not because of the "gaming" or whatever, but for some of the reasons stated above. They are pretty repetitive and frankly, I'm bored. The travel time, vacation days and costs are getting harder to justify for the ROI. I'll never be top 25%, and I don't mind...I'm not trying to be, but after 4 years of doing this, I want something more.
I moved back east in '14 and miss the west! I really enjoyed the Hide Cups that I shot, for a few reasons, that I wish I saw in more matches or at least here in the Midwest: no distances given....lase them yourself! Pistol....it was/is fun and breaks up the monotony a bit. Changing venue/terrain.
I wish I had gotten in some CD matches like Steel Safari when I lived out there!

The PPRC is on my short list for next year. But as has been said, how many things can we shoot off of in a match before it all becomes cookie cutter? I've shot off airplanes, buses, cars, fences, logs, toilets, ladders, rocks, nets, moving platforms, mannequins, roofs etc. Instead of varying the positional props...come up with something different downrange!!!

I like y'all's ideas of moving, shooting and scanning for targets. Something for sure needs to change.

 

[Lowlight]

Not for nothing, but...

The outcome at all cost is part of the problem. The promotion of this opens the door to fraud and we have seen that at an increased rate.

if matches were promoted in a way that pushed self-improvement vs what you can buy, or how you can adapt vs everything being about the What the Pros Use, the gear. Things would have progressed down a different path.

In everything there is cause and effect, this is no different. If you watch people bend the rules to the absolute limit someone will try to slide one in. If you tell everyone the path to success follows a specific gear route, the course of fire will suffer because everyone is looking at the rifles and how they will get employed. The mindset becomes one of equipment.

I watched the Nascar Final Race this past weekend, Congrats to Joey Logano, nice Italian boy from CT. The fast path around the track was the wall. The closer you are, the faster you go, but there is a downside, hit the wall you break your car. During the Xfinity Race Tyler Reddick was right against the wall and won the race. He scraped the wall several times but the Xfinity cars have composite bodies, they don't buckle and tear. The Monster Energy cars have quarter panels with that, you have trouble. Same track, the same solution was available, but the equipment made the difference. Joey had to stay off the wall to win. Same here, Pros will take one path, New Shooters another which can be based on equipment.

There are guys demonstrating every match that fundamentals can and will succeed. However the shortcuts are easy to practice, can be improved upon with a few choices purchases vs the time to train and the stages are designed to promote this method. They got shorter in their movement, they widened out the several of the platform making it easier to balance the bags, and they place a single target directly in front of you. So yes, you would be silly not to employ it.

Unless of course you throw away the outcomes at all cost model and focus on personal growth. That is the point the anti-free recoil crowd is making. It's not so much ugly as it is practical.

I can teach a guy off the street free recoil in 6 minutes, the heavier his equipment, the smaller his caliber, the lighter his trigger, the heavier his bag, the easier it will be. It's not new.

Google Benchrest Free Recoil, there is a ton of videos on YT. It's not new but will push the sport in the Tactical Benchrest direction with heavier stuff using smaller calibers.

It's hard to be fundamentally correct, it takes a lot of time and there is no reward which is a shame. Where you find the reward for many is buying the right product the first time. Cause and Effect for that will be money, the more you spend the better you do, vs Time. The money spent is designed to reduce training time. More money, less training needed.


This is where the rub comes for many.

 

[Magnetic]

Speaking of NASCAR, do you recall the IROC series? Identical cars, all prepped by one group of mechanics, and bringing it down to driver and crew skill. Imagine a match where everyone is shooting an identical 12 pound rifle, ammo, sling, bi-pod, and one bag.

 

[Lowlight]

It's been done,

ASC did a 308 only everyone shot Donated FN Rifles with the same USO Scopes... I think it was 2006 when it happened, might have been 07.

it changed things a tiny bit, but not a ton.

We did a 308 Match at Rifles Only where everyone shot the same ammo, Cor Bon supplied everyone the ammo, and offered up practice ammo from the same lots.

 

[Mormegil87]

The concept sounds neat I guess. I personally wouldn't compete in a series like that. I like my AXMC too much. It has ruined my thoughts on every other bolt action rifle.

 

[Raufoss]

As LL said.

Inforce weight limit. Any growing competitive sport need limits.
Imagine F1 without rules on tires, engine and so on..

Stage design to limit and prohibit use of some gear or shooting techniques.

My best observation and seeing in 2 matches the top tactical shooter come out with a freaking 30 lbs rifle... Come on a f$#@ MDT loaded of weight with a straight 1.250 barrel that you can free recoil like a 6 creed? Nonsense and rubbish. Get in the fucking open division that's it.

Frank you should be proud because if people are all over you is because you touched a sensitive spot.

And for all the no Sayer f you all if it's hurting your feelings.

 

[stevenc23]

i would 100% enjoy matches more if every stage was blind and shot in a single file order

squad moves to a holding area, shooter 1 goes, cant be seen by the waiting shooters, finishes and goes to the waiting area...shooter 2 follows and so on...hard to set up logistically some places, but would be a great test...shooters can talk and exchange ideas after its shot

This is the exact description of a Competition Dynamics match.

What is the "PPRC" match that you guys are talking about?

 

[Precision Underground]

I wonder if during the early growing years of NASCAR they had this argument, when "stock cars" became "race cars". These matches seem to me to becoming less tactical and more gimmick. This is the direction the sport seems to be going, I get it...... I choose not to shoot it. If a MD allows "pro's" to game the stages they will and do. And things like free recoil and 30lbs 308's is what you get. So be it you can't fault them for it. Hell if your playing the game, and lets face it that's what it is a game, and your not "gaming the system" it's your choice but I can't believe you can be truly competitive if you don't. But lets get back to the real issue, FR is not precision rifle shooting, its a tool used to score points in a game, while doing its best to circumvent the intent of the stage on which it is being used. Has there ever been a free recoil stage at a national event? I'd bet not, and why is that? Because its a gimmick. Anyone can play a game, figure out ways to score points, and game a system.

Actually nascar is a perfect example of not allowing it to become an equipment race. I’m not a nascar fan but I know they limit the horsepower to 700 or something like that. They are talking about lowering it to 500 I think. This is in a world where 1500 hp cars are the norm when no rules are set. NASCAR is probably one of the best examples of limiting equipment so the human factor is the #1 decider of the winner. Not that the human factor isn’t present in prs, just pointing out a good example of limiting equipment in a series to promote skill not equipment.

 

[Fongman]

In 2005 I shot a match (Frank was there as well) at Badlands Tactical, the "Bruce Robinson Memorial." If memory serves me, it was a 48 hr "non stop" match - Friday morning to Sunday noon. Two man teams with sniper, carbine and pistol stages. Plenty of navigation stages and a 1000+ yard stalk. My partner and I ended up doing 28 mi of navigation durning the match. Although we always picked the wrong freaking number and ended up having to do the longest nav routes. I think the average was closer to 20 mi total for most teams. After the first day, aggressor teams were actually hunting you with paintball guns. My partner got lit up pretty good on one stage and I thought he was going to kill the guy. Kinda funny now, but then...

From what I observed organizing such a match is a logistical nightmare. The match had some problems that I really don't want to get into, but I thought it was an incredible endeavor to host such an event. It kicked my ass, but I learned a ton. I can promise that such a match will penalize excessive weighted gear. And the thought of carrying around a bunch of large bags would be laughable.

Refining that kind of match would change a lot of the things that are being discussed here IMO. But the liability and needed organization probably prohibit such matches.

 

[Precision Underground]

In 2005 I shot a match (Frank was there as well) at Badlands Tactical, the "Bruce Robinson Memorial." If memory serves me, it was a 48 hr "non stop" match - Friday morning to Sunday noon. Two man teams with sniper, carbine and pistol stages. Plenty of navigation stages and a 1000+ yard stalk. My partner and I ended up doing 28 mi of navigation durning the match. Although we always picked the wrong freaking number and ended up having to do the longest nav routes. I think the average was closer to 20 mi total for most teams. After the first day, aggressor teams were actually hunting you with paintball guns. My partner got lit up pretty good on one stage and I thought he was going to kill the guy. Kinda funny now, but then...

From what I observed organizing such a match is a logistical nightmare. The match had some problems that I really don't want to get into, but I thought it was an incredible endeavor to host such an event. It kicked my ass, but I learned a ton. I can promise that such a match will penalize excessive weighted gear. And the thought of carrying around a bunch of large bags would be laughable.

Refining that kind of match would change a lot of the things that are being discussed here IMO. But the liability and needed organization probably prohibit such matches.

Damn that sounds fun. 12 years ago I randomly decided to have an all day all night paintball war with about 12 guys for my bachelor party. Strippers and boos are overrated. That was some of the most fun I have had. We did it on a friend’s property that had fields, Woods, and a few old shacks scattered around. One guy rented night vision equipment lmao.

 

[Mormegil87]

I'm not a fan of gear restrictions, specifically rifle restrictions. If a shooter wants to lug around a 30lb rifle, let em. Use the the stage and the clock to make it ill-advised. Make guys transition to multiple firing points on multiple targets. Make stages 90 seconds instead of 2 minutes.

 

[Basher]

I'm not a fan of gear restrictions, specifically rifle restrictions. If a shooter wants to lug around a 30lb rifle, let em. Use the the stage and the clock to make it ill-advised. Make guys transition to multiple firing points on multiple targets. Make stages 90 seconds instead of 2 minutes.

I'm in agreeance here. Weight limits mean you have to enforce them. Who wants to have to weigh every rifle at registration? Who wants to stop a stage and do a spot check because someone suspects weights were added?

Rather, mix up the stages to put pressure on some of the more ridiculous gear being used. More positional stuff, standing unsupported shots, heavy movement, shorter stage times, etc. Not on every stage of course, because then they'd bring a lighter rifle if they knew the whole match was that way. Just mix a few in to keep them on their toes. Run some matches like a Trooper class, where ANYTHING you plan to use at ANY point during the match must be carries with you (you'd have to give warning on that one, I guess). Have a few UKD stages where you have to mil the target, etc. Some MDs may do this stuff already, I suppose, but it should be a more regular thing.

Honestly, that would both discourage ridiculous gear usage, AND it would keep matches from getting stale. I used to shoot (and would like to get back into) two-gun matches where every stage was scenario based, and some matches were themed. Physical challenges were thrown in. All of this stuff meant every month was new, sometimes unorthodox, and was always fun. Even if you made a fool of yourself, everyone else did as well, and you learned new skills. I'd love to see more precision matches run this way!

 

[MuleyTime]

This is a great post to follow, and I love it when discussions can happen without panties getting all bunched up. Improvements need to be made and level-headed discussions are key.

I’m not a gear fan, but I usually follow suit to stay as competitive as possible. I happen to shoot a heavier rifle as I just enjoy it more…I didn’t really go that route to gain an advantage.

With that said, I want to bring something up that’s related but not in regards to gear or rifle weight or gaming. I can live with all that, but to me the BIGGER issue we have in PRS and NRL is there are no separate classes (A, B, C) for different skilled shooters. I know it’s been mentioned, but I haven’t noticed any fresh conversations about it.

The “boredom” effect is real. As mentioned above, matches are blending together as there are only so many types of obstacles to shoot off. Now, throw in the fact that the same top shooters are taking top spots (I will leave the prize table out of it). Without separate classes, a ton of new and seasoned shooters are getting VERY bored of same ‘ol same ‘ol for stages and the winners.

Don’t get me wrong, I believe the top shooters should be recognized and rewarded for their sacrifice in practice and money spent. However, it should be top shooters in each of the different classes. Many individuals, myself included, do not have unlimited resources or a home range that I can spend hours upon hours putting thousands of rounds down range practicing. So, more than likely I will never be able to compete with the top shooters as long as everyone is lumped into the same “class”.

Without classes, the analogy I use is like throwing high school athletes in with the pros, and expecting them to compete without the same resources available across the field of players. Some will eventually get better due to skill and move up, while the majority will simply get washed out from the “boredom”.

Classes would introduce a whole new level of competition and excitement….and better yet….growth. I would definitely sign up for more matches, knowing I could truly be competitive. For the record, I don’t do this JUST for the fun. I’m as competitive as the next guy. So, it does bother me to be, in say, the top 30 instead of top 5. I feel I have the skill set, but not the resources to compete in the current alignment. I believe there are a TON of shooters that fit this type that will be lost if something isn’t done.

I don’t see what the challenge is. It’s already been established in other shooting disciplines, but for some reason PRS/NRL can’t figure it out.

Hoping one of you “insiders” can shed some light on this.