Gain twist barrels?
- Thread starter Mattm8725
- Start date
Thanks for trying to help a newbie!
1) long distance shooting/ 1200+yards
2) additional bullet velocity
3)could use some help here
4) the ability to resist wind/ high bc/
Honestly I probably don’t know enough about this to be building a custom rifle, but I figured I could use every advantage I could get. Definitely looking for advice from experienced shooters, with the components/caliber I am using.
Look to benchrest To find what works. Guys, if gain twist was was all that, they would be using it. Use the right twist for the bullets you will be shooting and concentrate on load development. As a note, I like Bartlien barrels just fine, but all my best barrels have been Krieger or Brux... just my thoughts, your mileage may vary...
Wayne
Wayne
Bench rest is using Gain Twist barrels
this stuff is verified and works, listen to Bartlein
Bartlein is the leader because they have CNC Barrel machines unlike the others
this stuff is verified and works, listen to Bartlein
Bartlein is the leader because they have CNC Barrel machines unlike the others
And the Left-hand twist is designed for right-handed shooters, you can feel it.
Read Pope: goes back to the turn of the century for positional shooting, the advantages are clear and mechanical vs software fixes most default
Read Pope: goes back to the turn of the century for positional shooting, the advantages are clear and mechanical vs software fixes most default
This I expect to be the biggest advantage on the one being installed any day now.
Recoiling/Torquing into mass, rather than away has to help with follow through.
I'm kicking myself for not doing a left-hand twist. Chickened out at the last minute because it was something different then normal. Should know better.
Im doing .308.
I was really interested in trying a faster twist wanting a "shorter" barrel and to satisfy curiosity.
I saw this or another thread and a Leprechaun suggested a 3/4 gain.
LRI is likely cutting this Bartlein this week.....
- Cro Moly Steel (finish will be Parkerizing)
- 5R rifling
- Contour - 4 inch cylinder at 1.20 inch diameter, assumes first inch of cylinder will become barrel tenon. Straight taper to .90 inch diameter at finish length. Finish length to be 21 inches from bolt face.
- Twist - 9.5:1 left hand even gain twist to 8.75:1.
- Caliber - .30 caliber intended for .308 Winchester chambering.
175 SMKs are the intended projectile.
It will either make me totally happy or bum me out.
That's definitely fast for that projectile. Will be interesting to see how you do with it.
Heard a rumor some gov types were using short barrel fast twist .308 and liking it.
This whole deal is going to be a departure from my typical rifles which tend to be clones....
Gunsmithing - Remington 700 DBM opinions from guys that put them in.....and use them.
Lots of options out there. Lots of opinions. Figured Id ask here amongst the people that install them in hopes of finding out what is preferred as far as ease of fitting and just plain works for the customer. My build is going to be a wood stocked R700 in .308. Kind of an M40esque heavy...
www.snipershide.com
Soup sandwich or filet mignon..........Ill find out.
Hi,
Like they have been doing for over 10 years...
Gain-Twist, Cut-Rifled Barrels Shine in Short-Range Benchrest « Daily Bulletin (accurateshooter.com)
I have 20 LHGT all with 7 twist exits coming for various cartridges from 6.5CM to 338LM.
Sincerely,
Theis
Heard a rumor some gov types were using short barrel fast twist .308 and liking it.
This whole deal is going to be a departure from my typical rifles which tend to be clones....
Gunsmithing - Remington 700 DBM opinions from guys that put them in.....and use them.
Lots of options out there. Lots of opinions. Figured Id ask here amongst the people that install them in hopes of finding out what is preferred as far as ease of fitting and just plain works for the customer. My build is going to be a wood stocked R700 in .308. Kind of an M40esque heavy...
Soup sandwich or filet mignon..........Ill find out.
I've always been a believer of "it ain't broke then don't fix it" but leaving the comfort box to try something different to advance progress is the only way we will ever know. Thanks for doing this, looking forward to your results.
Its only a rebarrel if it sucks.
I doubt Ill be the discoverer of the better mousetrap....there is a reason 1:10 keeps popping up.
True, which is why I built a fast twist Norma to shoot heavy bullets. I was always hitting 2950-3000 fps with 250 gr factory 338 Lapua ammo almost 20 years ago. Moved on to the 300 gr loads and was tired of getting beat up just to shoot 1000 yards so I sold it. Range close to me opened up a couple years ago to stretch to a mile. Looking at similar case capacities I was hoping to get around 2900 in the Norma when the 250 A-tip came out, so I would be getting better performance than the 300 gr with similar recoil to the 250.
Like you said, it's only a barrel swap if it doesn't work. Just wish I had done the left-hand twist, but I'm sure it won't be my last barrel.
If you go back to Pope, he was doing LH Gain twist barrels before they had machines for barreling, he just did it by hand.
His competition record stood for 47 years with one,
The whole, it ain't broke don't fix it happened because at the time Machines were built they only turned one direction. They used a gear system so we have a Right Hand twist in everything because of manufacturing, not because it was right or better, only because screws turn that way.
today with computers and modern advancements in machining they can go in both directions equally well, hence we are seeing the mechanical fix for things like SD and CE
If everything in the Northern Hemisphere turns to the right, why not have the barrel go left to counter it, instead of adding, 1 + 1 + 2, why not go 1+1-2, before then a lot of barrels when Left, look up the Lee Enfield, probably the most popular.
His competition record stood for 47 years with one,
The whole, it ain't broke don't fix it happened because at the time Machines were built they only turned one direction. They used a gear system so we have a Right Hand twist in everything because of manufacturing, not because it was right or better, only because screws turn that way.
today with computers and modern advancements in machining they can go in both directions equally well, hence we are seeing the mechanical fix for things like SD and CE
If everything in the Northern Hemisphere turns to the right, why not have the barrel go left to counter it, instead of adding, 1 + 1 + 2, why not go 1+1-2, before then a lot of barrels when Left, look up the Lee Enfield, probably the most popular.
It uses the left SD to counter the right CE / Eotvos
In the Northern Hemisphere, it works which is why many European rifles were left twist.
You can mechanically cancel it out to a very small amount. It makes more sense, we have CE going Right, we have SD going right in most barrels, so why not put the two against each other. this is an old concept, not a new one.
The left hand also put the recoil at the back of the rifle inward instead of out. You can feel it in alternate positions it recoils in a straighter line toward you vs trying to get away. Plus most Right-Hand Shooters push right, in fact they make 99% of their errors towards the right, so having an element left works.
In the Northern Hemisphere, it works which is why many European rifles were left twist.
You can mechanically cancel it out to a very small amount. It makes more sense, we have CE going Right, we have SD going right in most barrels, so why not put the two against each other. this is an old concept, not a new one.
The left hand also put the recoil at the back of the rifle inward instead of out. You can feel it in alternate positions it recoils in a straighter line toward you vs trying to get away. Plus most Right-Hand Shooters push right, in fact they make 99% of their errors towards the right, so having an element left works.
Almost pulled the trigger on an 8.25-9 LHT for this build but got cold feet after a similar 300 PRC build did not shoot well for me with any factory ammo and instead of giving it a chance with handloads, I had already made up mind to do a Norma and sold it off.
Left-hand twist for sure next time.
My abilities make CE/SD the least of my problems.......
But in the near future, for those rare moments when I get everything right, it will be nice to know the rifle has "built in" advantage in my favor.
@lowlight when you shoot LH twist barrels to you favor the impact of your zero slightly right?
No center on my LH GT barrels, no offset
with my RH Barrels, I zero .1 left of center,
The reality is CE and SD is beyond most people's ability to do it right, I contend it's about 1.25% of elevation, most software is giving you 2% -3% of elevation as a flat rate, so nobody is doing it as accurately as they claim.
The point with a LH GT barrel, ignore it, completely ignore it
with my RH Barrels, I zero .1 left of center,
The reality is CE and SD is beyond most people's ability to do it right, I contend it's about 1.25% of elevation, most software is giving you 2% -3% of elevation as a flat rate, so nobody is doing it as accurately as they claim.
The point with a LH GT barrel, ignore it, completely ignore it
I listened to Frank several years back when he said , I think, it was a 6.5 LH gain twist. I went to a 1-10 LH twist on a .308 and have not gone back. All of my barrels have been LH. Thanks Frank if you hadn't posted that video I would never had tried it. Bottom line try it if you don't like it change it again until you get what you want.
Hi,
Same here....going strictly LH GT on all production rifles. Offering 2 options..1 for jacketed and 1 for monos.
Sincerely,
Theis
Hi,
Monos will be a significantly faster twist rate...such as 7 for pretty much everything.
Sincerely,
Theis
Monos will be a significantly faster twist rate...such as 7 for pretty much everything.
Sincerely,
Theis
Right but I've been advised to stay at no more than 3/4" gain on jacketed bullets, was wondering if you could get more aggressive with a solid due to alloy used.
Hi,
Quiet honestly...what Bartlein puts on them. I denote the exit, contour and length while letting the experts @Frank Green handle the other.
Sincerely,
Theis
Quiet honestly...what Bartlein puts on them. I denote the exit, contour and length while letting the experts @Frank Green handle the other.
Sincerely,
Theis
Responses that followed said that is fast for those projectiles. I was thinking like a 10.5 to 10.
Call Bartlein and they will steer you in the right direction. I would be thinking maybe 9.75-10.5 if you're going to be shooting up to 200 grs and moving on the slower side.
10 is vanilla ice cream........everything loves it.
If you are looking to test why not 10 to 9.25?
11.25 and 10 are known animals. You have split the difference.
My test is to see if making the spiral a little faster equates to a bit better tracking.
Im just basing it off of 1/7 .224 and running "heavies" of 77 and higher.
I recognize the lazer effect in the little bullets and hope to see if similar will happen in .308.
Edit/Add - talking to Bartlein will be good advice. Im guessing anything we think of they have tried.
This entire discussion is mainly about how folks (re)break old ground (Pope, for instance). The new means of CAD and CAM enable precise execution of concepts that have been around for longer than I have, and that's a pretty long time.
There is no "bad" in this.
It's like that old commercial about when XYZ talks, everybody listens. Insert LL for XYZ, and that's as it should be. IMHO, Frank and some forward thinking high tech barrel makers have gotten onto the same wavelength, and we are seeing the early public stages of the proofs. The important-est part about LL's participation in all of this is that his voice reaches a long way, and that's essential to this project's success.
The improvement, to be successful in the marketing stage, must be accessible to all. It needs to be something that the more average shooters will be able to see a clear improvement from. If it requires shaking chicken feet over the barrel, or high incantations in a dead language; OR, costs a big chunk of the farm to own, the tea cools and we see a lukewarm reception, no matter how well it works for those with the proper means (whatever they may be).
Me, I can't honestly wrap my fading mind around the hows and whys. That's really immaterial as long as it works anyway.
I look forward to more info, worded simply for my fading mind, as this project progresses through the more economic stages.
Good fortune. Keep this ball rolling, whatever the cost.
Greg
There is no "bad" in this.
It's like that old commercial about when XYZ talks, everybody listens. Insert LL for XYZ, and that's as it should be. IMHO, Frank and some forward thinking high tech barrel makers have gotten onto the same wavelength, and we are seeing the early public stages of the proofs. The important-est part about LL's participation in all of this is that his voice reaches a long way, and that's essential to this project's success.
The improvement, to be successful in the marketing stage, must be accessible to all. It needs to be something that the more average shooters will be able to see a clear improvement from. If it requires shaking chicken feet over the barrel, or high incantations in a dead language; OR, costs a big chunk of the farm to own, the tea cools and we see a lukewarm reception, no matter how well it works for those with the proper means (whatever they may be).
Me, I can't honestly wrap my fading mind around the hows and whys. That's really immaterial as long as it works anyway.
I look forward to more info, worded simply for my fading mind, as this project progresses through the more economic stages.
Good fortune. Keep this ball rolling, whatever the cost.
Greg
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To me it's weird with a 308, it's so forgiving, I never had an issue with weights and twists, you can shoot a 168, 175 out of a 12, you can shoot both out of a 10, you can do almost anything with it from 12 to 10 without any real issue, so I don't really chase 308 Gain rates, in fact, I like the 10 and 185s a lot so that window is actually quite wider.
My best guess I would say, would be a couple different variants,
10 to 9 would probably be the best bet just lamenting over it, this would work with most stuff.
the more I think about it, 10 to 8 should work, if we have a window of 12 to 10, then in my mind 10 to 8 would be okay
The current thinking is 3/4 gain, but 1.0 is not that aggressive, it should work fine for most rifles.
My best guess I would say, would be a couple different variants,
10 to 9 would probably be the best bet just lamenting over it, this would work with most stuff.
the more I think about it, 10 to 8 should work, if we have a window of 12 to 10, then in my mind 10 to 8 would be okay
The current thinking is 3/4 gain, but 1.0 is not that aggressive, it should work fine for most rifles.
I plan on rebarreling my .22-250 next year with a LHGT carbon fiber wrapped barrel from Bartlein. I need to call them to figure out what gain twist they recommend for what I want to shoot. This is my varmint gun.
I have a 22 inch 11.5 to 11 twist bartlein 5r that shoots 208 eldm's with no issues.
Good to know. Being mindful of the military standard of 11.25 for a 175 Sierra, I guess there must be considerable difference between optimal vs acceptable twist rates.
What is your elevation? I'm restricted to damn near sea level so I always need to be cautious about it.
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