Gaming the NRL-22 Offhand Stages - does anyone GAF?

[Starbuck]

So I shot an NRL-22 match today here in Colorado. A good shooter who I know, and who shall remain nameless, was tearing up the "standing offhand" stage by squatting, like he was taking a shit in the forest, resting both elbows on both knees, thereby gaining some stability, that the traditional-position offhand shooters were of course missing.

The rest of us "traditional-position" competitors were standing, like normal people standing, like rimfire silhouette shooters do, per NRA rules, thinking that we were following the spirit of the NRL-22 rules.

The squatting dude, who I shall call "the shitter," even though I like him, and am not trying to crap on him personally, was cleaning the targets, as intended, with his improved, non-traditional, "standing" position, like he was on a shitter in the woods. OK....

I was squadded with the MD, who said that this was "under conversation" with NRL management, or whatever. Bull fucking shit! Gamers do what gamers gotta do, right? This is my view, anyway....

So why hasn't NRL-22 management addressed this matter, not that I GAF, as I do not compete in NRL-22 except today? Is it even an issue?

 

[roostercogburn98]

Section C clearly defines the standard
https://nrl22.org/about/rules/

 

[littlepod]

As the MD for my match I said standing is knees > 90 degrees. Nrl22 rules today currently just say 2 feet on the ground.

 

[Stev0]

Was he wearing an Adidas track suit?

 

[Ruff 364]

MD's have the final say at their matches, and some need to man the fuck up.

 

[vaguru]

NRL22 "used" to have pictures of the approved positions at the end of the COF. They are no longer included.

What this guy did was not "gaming", it was NOT standing by any stretch of the imagination, it was "squatting" and therefore should have scored Zero for the stage.

My opinion, from having shot NRA Rifle Silhouette and NRA/CMP Highpower Rifle.

 

[Starbuck]

Section C clearly defines the standard
https://nrl22.org/about/rules/

NRL-22 Rule 5.C.2 does indeed "define" the standard, but I disagree that the definition is "clear."

The rule states "Standing unsupported position must have both feet on the ground."

Then the question becomes: "Does this standard that provides sufficient clarity to competitors and MDs?" and I think it does not.

 

[phlegethon]

MD's have the final say at their matches, and some need to man the fuck up.

I recently went to a rimfire match where there was a stage that said shoot two rounds offhand and then move to a tank trap. It said allowed equipment: any. So then some smoothbrain came along and said they should be able to use a tripod for the offhand shots and the RO caved. It’s sad all around. There is gaming that advances the sport and there is gaming that’s just pathetic and needs to be stopped by the ROs and MDs.

 

[CavReconScout]

Why all the drama? You saw something you felt was a rule violation, you notified the MD, who has final say at HIS match, and who obviously didn’t agree with you. Doesn’t matter what CMP or NRA does at their matches this isn’t that. Different game, different rules, which can be modified if a problem is discovered. Why all the angst?

 

[308pirate]

MD's have the final say at their matches, and some need to man the fuck up.

If your sport had a ruleset that was worth a shit, match directors wouldn't have to define what standing is.

"Spirit of the game" and "MD has the final say" are clear signs of bush league.

And if y'all gonna leave a wide open rulebook, then spend more than 1 minute writing a stage description. Maybe include something called "prohibited actions"

 

[308pirate]

There is gaming that advances the sport and there is gaming that’s just pathetic and needs to be stopped by the ROs and MDs.

Who decides?

I think the problem is that most of you don't understand what gaming actually is.

 

[johnnyvw]

Sounds like someone needs a dictionary, to discern the difference between "standing" and "squatting".

 

[vaguru]

I recently went to a rimfire match where there was a stage that said shoot two rounds offhand and then move to a tank trap. It said allowed equipment: any. So then some smoothbrain came along and said they should be able to use a tripod for the offhand shots and the RO caved. It’s sad all around. There is gaming that advances the sport and there is gaming that’s just pathetic and needs to be stopped by the ROs and MDs.

If it was an NRL22 match, the the RO was in error.

Stated in NRL22 rules, Section C.1, The only exceptions to this are tripods and shooting sticks are never allowed.

If another venue, then I guess the options are open.

 

[vaguru]

Why all the drama? You saw something you felt was a rule violation, you notified the MD, who has final say at HIS match, and who obviously didn’t agree with you. Doesn’t matter what CMP or NRA does at their matches this isn’t that. Different game, different rules, which can be modified if a problem is discovered. Why all the angst?

I agree with you that it doesn't matter what CMP or NRA does, just used that as a description of what "standing" should be defined as. And as mentioned previously, there used to be pictures of the approved positions at the end of the COF, no longer attached.

 

[308pirate]

If it was an NRL22 match, the the RO was in error.

Brings up another question. Does the NRL have an RO training and certification program?

I bet not.

 

[vaguru]

If your sport had a ruleset that was worth a shit, match directors wouldn't have to define what standing is.

"Spirit of the game" and "MD has the final say" are clear signs of bush league.

And if y'all gonna leave a wide open rulebook, then spend more than 1 minute writing a stage description. Maybe include something called "prohibited actions"

Agree 100%. Rule book/rule set is in need of specifics. My feeling from the onset.

 

[vaguru]

Brings up another question. Does the NRL have an RO training and certification program?

I bet not.

Not to my knowledge.

 

[Defender32]

It would be a DQ for the stage at my match and 4 others that are around me. Standing un supported is just that. Like what @littlepod said. Knees bent above 90*.

 

[JohnTheFisherman]

I have issues with a few of the nrl22’s rules and most are because of grey area.
I like the idea of having “prohibited actions” on the cof description.
the way their rules are written leave it open for people to game them. Pretty sad that people need an explanation of what constitutes standing.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

BUT....was it a "jersey" shooter, lol???

Also, just FWIW, lol...hard to say you don't GAF yet you make a thread about it...........

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[PinesAndProjectiles]

Standing is standing, it doesn’t and shouldn’t need to be defined.
And anyone squadded with him should have called him out. If he persists, then the RO and/or MD need to get involved.

 

[Starbuck]

Hi,

BUT....was it a "jersey" shooter, lol???

Also, just FWIW, lol...hard to say you don't GAF yet you make a thread about it...........

Sincerely,
Theis

I really don't GAF about NRL-22. Too many contrived positions, in my experience.

I started this thread because I am concerned about the lack of good sportsmanship in rifle comps, and I do GAF about that. There have been many threads here on the Hide - at least since the 2014 SH Cup cheating scandal - that document that the problem is real. Is it pervasive? No, just a few bad apples... But, I think this shit needs to be exposed when people see it.

This was not a sponsored "jersey" shooter, but he did participate in the NRL-22 Nationals recently in Nebraska, FWIW.

 

[6.5SH]

Given NRL tries to be about "practical" methods they should add the position for what it is; "squatting" or the more colorful but no longer snow flake approved "rice paddy prone".

 

[ma smith]

This was not a sponsored "jersey" shooter, but he did participate in the NRL-22 Nationals recently in Nebraska, FWIW.

National level competitors reading the rulebook is par for the course...

Solution for the NRL "standing" issue should be something simlple, like shoot over a 1meter barricade or whatever...the purpose of teaching standing for field use to only to shoot over obstacles...there is no reason to outlaw the rice-paddy-prone from a stage that doesn't have a minimum height constraint...since it requires no extra gear, and is field serviceble.

Personally, however, I think NRL should just shoot true offhand (no slings). Thats its own skill IMHO. Nobody running tactical rifles is running with sling containing an arm loop anymore. So "slung-standing" is argubly more contrived in terms of field expediency vs rice paddy prone. Just a pick your poison kind of deal.

 

[phlegethon]

Who decides?

I think the problem is that most of you don't understand what gaming actually is.

I decide. We all know what standing unsupported is. It’s ridiculous that people won’t take two standing shots at a quarter IPSC from 75 yards away. That’s all I’m saying.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Even "wikihow" knows the difference in standing and squatting.....
The directions of how to take a shit are pretty self explanatory.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[308pirate]

I decide. We all know what standing unsupported is. It’s ridiculous that people won’t take two standing shots at a quarter IPSC from 75 yards away. That’s all I’m saying.

LOLOLOLOL

That's how it's done in the bush league

 

[308pirate]

I really don't GAF about NRL-22. Too many contrived positions, in my experience.

I started this thread because I am concerned about the lack of good sportsmanship in rifle comps, and I do GAF about that. There have been many threads here on the Hide - at least since the 2014 SH Cup cheating scandal - that document that the problem is real. Is it pervasive? No, just a few bad apples... But, I think this shit needs to be exposed when people see it.

This was not a sponsored "jersey" shooter, but he did participate in the NRL-22 Nationals recently in Nebraska, FWIW.

Gaming is not cheating

Gaming is taking every advantage that the rules let you either explicitly or (more commonly) by omission.

The only ones who get butthurt are those who didn't think of it.

 

[308pirate]

the way their rules are written leave it open for people to game them.

Because it's............................a game!

 

[308pirate]

National level competitors reading the rulebook is par for the course...

Only idiots don't understand their sport's rules well enough to maximize every advantage.

 

[308pirate]

This was not a sponsored "jersey" shooter

This thing y'all have with "jersey" shooters is funny as shit. It's like penis envy.

 

[phlegethon]

Gaming is not cheating

Gaming is taking every advantage that the rules let you either explicitly or (more commonly) by omission.

The only ones who get butthurt are those who didn't think of it.

The funny thing was that I saw multiple tripod users miss or time out, while I and others cleaned the stage by shooting it the right way.

 

[JohnTheFisherman]

The funny thing was that I saw multiple tripod users miss or time out, while I and others cleaned the stage by shooting it the right way.

A tripod is the only piece of equipment that is named in the rules as not allowed. Was this an nrl22 match?

 

[Schütze]

How about butt hook and hand stop like used on biathlon rifles, allowed?

 

[drglock]

I’m too old and my knees are to shot to try that. Was he gaming ? Yes, but most of us game stages one way or another at a match. Did he violate the rules? No, at least from what I read.

 

[JohnTheFisherman]

I’m too old and my knees are to shot to try that. Was he gaming ? Yes, but most of us game stages one way or another at a match. Did he violate the rules? No, at least from what I read.

The rules are based on common sense though. They shouldn’t have to say that squatting isn’t allowed for the simple fact that squatting isn’t standing.

 

[phlegethon]

A tripod is the only piece of equipment that is named in the rules as not allowed. Was this an nrl22 match?

No, it was MARS/PRS22.

 

[1911JMB]

I'm pretty certain everyone knows WTF offhand is and anything else is not gaming but cheating cut the crap already

 

[OREGUN]

Vague match-book descriptions drive me nuts…especially when squads are doing their own ROing (local matches). Clearly defined targets, no question about firing positions available, conditions for deployment of gear, etc. as far as I’m concerned, if the book just said two feet on the ground and no gear restrictions, then ANYTHING goes as long as both feet are on the ground.

 

[nockhunter]

Good old "rice paddy prone". Game on!
People don't like Kentucky prone either.
Mike

 

[BillOH]

Gaming is not cheating

Gaming is taking every advantage that the rules let you either explicitly or (more commonly) by omission.

The only ones who get butthurt are those who didn't think of it.

I had to quote this because it's such a good answer. I'm a proud Gamer, but I don't cheat. Read the Rule Book.

 

[308pirate]

I had to quote this because it's such a good answer. I'm a proud Gamer, but I don't cheat. Read the Rule Book.
View attachment 7693601

In USPSA anyone who games a stage in a creative and effective way usually gets a round of applause.

 

[308pirate]

I'm pretty certain everyone knows WTF offhand is and anything else is not gaming but cheating cut the crap already

Like I said those who are butthurt are the ones who didn't think outside the box but within the rules.

 

[308pirate]

How about butt hook and hand stop like used on biathlon rifles, allowed?

If it ain't prohibited it's allowed.

 

[phlegethon]

In USPSA anyone who games a stage in a creative and effective way usually gets a round of applause.

Honest question: what’s an example of gaming a USPSA stage?

 

[Starbuck]

So after 44 posts on this subject I will offer the following precition:

Within a month or so, everyone at these NRL-22 matches will be shooting the offhand stages squatting, that is, if they are physically capable of assuming this position.

And, I will also predict that within a month or so of this catching on, whoever is in charge of NRL-22 will amend rule 5.C.2. so that competitors will have to shoot erect standing, because it puts competitors who may not be able to get into the squatting position at a clear disadvantage.

 

[308pirate]

Honest question: what’s an example of gaming a USPSA stage?

It's hard to give an example because stages are never the same. It's all freestyle.

The best example I can give you is someone finding a way to run a stage that no one thought of during the match but breaks no rules and makes engaging several of the targets way easier or faster.

We do not tolerate cheaters and our rulebook is well developed enough that we don't have to guess at what cheating is or isn't.

 

[drglock]

So after 44 posts on this subject I will offer the following precition:

Within a month or so, everyone at these NRL-22 matches will be shooting the offhand stages squatting, that is, if they are physically capable of assuming this position.

And, I will also predict that within a month or so of this catching on, whoever is in charge of NRL-22 will amend rule 5.C.2. so that competitors will have to shoot erect standing, because it puts competitors who may not be able to get into the squatting position at a clear disadvantage.

I shoot multiple matches a year where I’m at a clear disadvantage compared to the majority of the shooters but I never complain. Friend of mine that is 6’4” took this pic while I was shooting the stage. He showed me the pic on the way home and we laughed about it all the way home. Now the MD did cut about 5” off it shortly after this but we had shot 4-5 matches off this prop but with that said I never went to him and complained.
Or am I gaming ?

 

[vaguru]

I shoot multiple matches a year where I’m at a clear disadvantage compared to the majority of the shooters but I never complain. Friend of mine that is 6’4” took this pic while I was shooting the stage. He showed me the pic on the way home and we laughed about it all the way home. Now the MD did cut about 5” off it shortly after this but we had shot 4-5 matches off this prop but with that said I never went to him and complained.
Or am I gaming ?
View attachment 7693639

Gaming? Only if it states two feet on the ground.

 

[Quickoz]

I dont currently shoot NRL22 but I think squatting when the intent of the course of fire is standing as it is commonly understood is wrong. Its against the spirit of the competition.