The COF says “standing, unsupported…”. This doesn’t look like “standing “ to my eyes. Maybe in a woke world it is. Lol!
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Gaming the NRL-22 Offhand Stages - does anyone GAF?
- Thread starter Starbuck
- Start date
Anyone can go to the NRL22 website and download any COF from February 2021 or earlier and view the supplement that shows pics of unsupported positions.
I have no idea why the supplement page with these pictures are no longer included with the current COF's.
I would have posted that page, but I'm not savvy enough with computers to do so.
I have no idea why the supplement page with these pictures are no longer included with the current COF's.
I would have posted that page, but I'm not savvy enough with computers to do so.
Don't hate the player, hate the game...
C. Equipment and Positional Shooting
1. Unless mentioned in the course of fire, any equipment may be used. The only exceptions to this are
tripods and shooting sticks, which are never allowed. All NRL22 shooters are considered to be the most welcoming
participants in any shooting sport. Sharing of equipment, especially to new shooters, is highly
encouraged. A sling is designed to provide a way to carry the rifle and also to assist in unsupported
positional shooting. The sling may attach at 1 or 2 points to the rifle. It may have cuffs or adjustments to
aid in unsupported positional shooting.
2. Standing unsupported position must have both feet on the ground. In the unsupported kneeling
position, the shooter must have one knee on the ground. The other knee and one or both feet may be
on the ground. In the unsupported seated position, the shooter must have their butt on the ground.
Both knees and feet may be on the ground. In the prone unsupported position, it is never acceptable to
have any part of the rifle or any part of the hand resting on the ground. The ground includes a mat, tarp,
bag, glove, coat etc.
C. Equipment and Positional Shooting
1. Unless mentioned in the course of fire, any equipment may be used. The only exceptions to this are
tripods and shooting sticks, which are never allowed. All NRL22 shooters are considered to be the most welcoming
participants in any shooting sport. Sharing of equipment, especially to new shooters, is highly
encouraged. A sling is designed to provide a way to carry the rifle and also to assist in unsupported
positional shooting. The sling may attach at 1 or 2 points to the rifle. It may have cuffs or adjustments to
aid in unsupported positional shooting.
2. Standing unsupported position must have both feet on the ground. In the unsupported kneeling
position, the shooter must have one knee on the ground. The other knee and one or both feet may be
on the ground. In the unsupported seated position, the shooter must have their butt on the ground.
Both knees and feet may be on the ground. In the prone unsupported position, it is never acceptable to
have any part of the rifle or any part of the hand resting on the ground. The ground includes a mat, tarp,
bag, glove, coat etc.
Well its spreading.
Almost a month ago in Pierre,SD a friend of mine shooting the NRL22 match did a similar technique. The MD didnt know about it till way after ( shoots his own match as well as MD simultaneously). His public statement was if he had known....he wouldn't have allowed it.
Fast forward a week later and a different shooter who also attended that Pierre match did this at the Watertown, SD match....
HE ASKED THE MATCH DIRECTOR IN WATERTOWN PRIOR TO ATTEMPTING IT. The match director then seeing the rules as they are written....approved it.
And of course having seeing him do it with MD approval....monkey see monkey do. Not that it helped the others to any worthwhile degree over doing it traditionally.
I have no doubt the image spread across FB and inevitably others saw it and decided it would be a great way to make up for their inadequacies in unsupported.
So despite however I feel. The call was made by the MD. And the shooter asked for permission first. He did not bend the rules and beg for forgiveness afterward. So I am not surprised at all that its spreading.
So if people don't like this.....they need to yell at the NRL. They've had almost a entire month to address it. And if shooters don't let the NRL or their individual MD's know. Why should they do anything?
Almost a month ago in Pierre,SD a friend of mine shooting the NRL22 match did a similar technique. The MD didnt know about it till way after ( shoots his own match as well as MD simultaneously). His public statement was if he had known....he wouldn't have allowed it.
Fast forward a week later and a different shooter who also attended that Pierre match did this at the Watertown, SD match....
HE ASKED THE MATCH DIRECTOR IN WATERTOWN PRIOR TO ATTEMPTING IT. The match director then seeing the rules as they are written....approved it.
And of course having seeing him do it with MD approval....monkey see monkey do. Not that it helped the others to any worthwhile degree over doing it traditionally.
I have no doubt the image spread across FB and inevitably others saw it and decided it would be a great way to make up for their inadequacies in unsupported.
So despite however I feel. The call was made by the MD. And the shooter asked for permission first. He did not bend the rules and beg for forgiveness afterward. So I am not surprised at all that its spreading.
So if people don't like this.....they need to yell at the NRL. They've had almost a entire month to address it. And if shooters don't let the NRL or their individual MD's know. Why should they do anything?
No matter what, It is NOT standing! Enough said!
Where in anywhere I typed did I say it was....
All I said was there was an origin to the OP's post prior to his experience and a written standard was provided.
The NRL and all the MD knows of this technique.....
If the standard isn't rewritten or a MD doesnt publicly address it....then they are fine with it. And you as a shooter if you wish to continue forward must conform to the MD's stance....good, bad, or indifferent.
Reply wasn't directed at you, but to the picture.
Now to be argumentative, both my feet are on the ground when I shoot prone. Is that also Standing by the rules? Guess there is no such thing as "common sense" any more.
According to the written rules, if you can convince a MD or RO that your feet are, in fact on the ground, while shooting prone, then you are standing. I don’t think anyone is arguing that the rule is well written. Just that the technique shown confirms to the letter of the rule. And, as this is a game, the rules (amd not your feelz) are all that matter.
We should all know the difference between standing and squatting is. I don’t give a crap about gaming. If I was there I’d have called them out on it.
Kinda why I started this thread, to stir up the shit and force NRL management to man up and address the issue. I am waiting....
Are they going to say that, yes, we believe that Rice Paddy Prone is truly allowed on a unsupported "standing" stage. Let's see...
OK, hopefully my last post on this matter.
From Websters Dictionary, the definition of stand.
a : to support oneself on the feet in an erect position.
b : to be a specified height when fully erect
c : to rise to an erect position
Some of y'all crack me up. Only "read" in the rules what you want. The section of the rules in question specifically states STANDING Unsupported.
From Section C. Equipment and Positional Shooting, Item 2. Standing unsupported position must have both feet on ground.
I'm just curious what part of STANDING is not understood. Reading the COMPLETE sentence is required. Nowhere does it say, Unsupported position must have both feet on the ground.
And in response to my satirical use of prone as standing, other positions, kneeling, and sitting have both feet on the ground as well.
If I could convince ANY MD, that ANY of these other positions were Standing, I would ask for a refund of match fees, leave and never return to that club/range.
I just don't get it. Carry on.
From Websters Dictionary, the definition of stand.
a : to support oneself on the feet in an erect position.
b : to be a specified height when fully erect
c : to rise to an erect position
Some of y'all crack me up. Only "read" in the rules what you want. The section of the rules in question specifically states STANDING Unsupported.
From Section C. Equipment and Positional Shooting, Item 2. Standing unsupported position must have both feet on ground.
I'm just curious what part of STANDING is not understood. Reading the COMPLETE sentence is required. Nowhere does it say, Unsupported position must have both feet on the ground.
And in response to my satirical use of prone as standing, other positions, kneeling, and sitting have both feet on the ground as well.
If I could convince ANY MD, that ANY of these other positions were Standing, I would ask for a refund of match fees, leave and never return to that club/range.
I just don't get it. Carry on.
I'm not a lawyer, but a lawyer would have a field day with the NRL rule book. "Standing unsupported" is the name of the position and the definition- as per the rules- is both feet on the ground. It is a terribly written rule, but the rule as written allows squatting.
This is why people stop shooting matches when bullshit like this takes place
Yes guy’s, blame the NRL because you’re not able to accept the meaning of the word standing. And all this because you suck shooting standing ( just like me). What a pile of crap. And of course you teach all this bs to the Kids that are at these matches too right? Next to that same sex marriage and ts guy’s in female sport is just fine, what could possibly be wrong in that?
The simplest fucking solution it to drop unsupported standing stages altogether. I mean, everyone fucking hates this stage except for the one fucker who's been practicing this his whole life just to game this stage anyway. 
Hey!The simplest fucking solution it to drop unsupported standing stages altogether. I mean, everyone fucking hates this stage except for the one fucker who's been practicing this his whole life just to game this stage anyway.
I resemble that! I've been practicing standing unsupported for weeks now after I had terrible accuracy at a stage.
Why not man up and discuss it with them directly instead of posting on the hide about it? And then making memes about it.. yea definitely sounds like someone who doesn't GAF for sure.
Maybe this will help, maybe not.
The rules for Standing Unsupported were the same for the previous years of NRL22. Back then there was a SUPPLEMENTAL page with pictures posted of approved positions. Here is the APPROVED Position for Standing Unsupported, direct from NRL22.
FIG.1: Standing Unsupported Position
I don't see how one could misinterpret the position.
If one would like to view all the pictures of APPROVED positions for unsupported, all they would have to do is go to the NRL22 website and download the COF for February 2021 or earlier.
The rules for Standing Unsupported were the same for the previous years of NRL22. Back then there was a SUPPLEMENTAL page with pictures posted of approved positions. Here is the APPROVED Position for Standing Unsupported, direct from NRL22.
FIG.1: Standing Unsupported Position
I don't see how one could misinterpret the position.
If one would like to view all the pictures of APPROVED positions for unsupported, all they would have to do is go to the NRL22 website and download the COF for February 2021 or earlier.
I think practicing a marksmanship skill is the very opposite of gaming. And yes, people hate anything that isn't slapping a gamechanger bag onto a prop. Not sure if catering to that is the way to go.The simplest fucking solution it to drop unsupported standing stages altogether. I mean, everyone fucking hates this stage except for the one fucker who's been practicing this his whole life just to game this stage anyway.
Supplemental is… supplemental. Like drawings in a patent filing, the only things that actually matter are the claims. The written rules are what matter, and the written rules suck. That is why this thread exists.
Not true at all. People also like gamer plates… And tripods. And, bipods with really long legs. And lashing their tripod to their rifle and then to themselves with a sling. And, and, and…
Its a game. Go. Shoot. Have fun. Or, pack your shit and pout in the corner. If someone beats you because they lawyered the rules, remember that. And, remember that none of this actually matters. It’s a fucking game.
Not true at all. People also like gamer plates… And tripods. And, bipods with really long legs. And lashing their tripod to their rifle and then to themselves with a sling. And, and, and…
Its a game. Go. Shoot. Have fun. Or, pack your shit and pout in the corner. If someone beats you because they lawyered the rules, remember that. And, remember that none of this actually matters. It’s a fucking game.
Why should someone ask "permission" to do something that is within the rules?
What kind of mickey mouse bullshit is that?
PRS is closer to a kid’s game than a real sport at this point. Especially local matches. That’s the source of frustration.
Mate, when I compete in competition, I do it wanting to know that everyone else is doing it in a sportsmanlike way aswell. When someone games, cheats, does somethings that against the intent and spirit of the rules, it may be technically legal perhaps, but that one person will only end up doing themselves a disservice in the long run. When I win a comp, I want to do it within the rules and in a way that I know I havent done something wrong. To win via gaming a stage, etc is wrong and unsportsman like behaviour. You can call me a kid, whatever, but you aint the sorta person I want to compete with.
Maybe the rules need to be clearer, but I also dont think the NRL22 rules commitee would have thought squatting would be considered a standing position.
Going to my first "PRS22" style match (MARS) on Sunday, my only goal is to have fun and not finish last; we'll see how it goes. I wouldn't know how to "game the system", and even if I did, I wouldn't...it would likely mess me up. If others do, more props to them, they have been playing the game, and feel the need to take any advantage they can for a participation trophy.
Because if you are not sure the MD is going to give you a zero because you know the tactic employed is gonna burn you.....you ask. Its not Mickey Mouse. Its common sense and tactically smart if you actually value your points you've earned and don't wish to reshoot, get a zero, or deal with bullshit remarks calling your act cheating when you got the go ahead in the first place.
Since a portion of shooters DID in fact complain immediately. The MD let those said shooters know that according to his interpretation of the rule as they were written.
You do not do something and then act shocked you got a zero because the MD's interpretation is counter to it.
It takes zero effort to ask the MD at these matches and get a confirmation to continue forward. You don't even have to share your tactic with others in the squad if you do not wish. Your gaming can continue on unimpeded.
Mickey Mouse is not fixing/clarifying the rules after the first incident and making it public so all people (MD's, RO's, Shooters) all know going forward. And if they did not want to fix it....they should have made that public as well.
Its not like the majority of MD's didn't give their two cents about it. The report back I got was the majority thought it was a immediate no go. And then bickering ensued. But the NRL didn't change or publicly acknowledge anything about it that I ever saw. They just left it to the MD's individally from what I've seen to make the call. Talk about consistency.
Opinions about what's within the "spirit" or "intent" don't matter. Only matters what the rulebook says or doesn't say.
If NRL says standing is having two feet on the ground, all bets are off.
Standing is defined as:
Now game it.........
- Both feet will be flat on the ground
- Only soles of the feet shall touch the ground
- Rifle will not touch the body anywhere below the waist
- The rifle will not touch any object external to the shooter's body
- No part of the shooter's body may touch any object that is not the rifle
- No part of the body above the waist shall touch any part of the body below the waist
- Use of slings in any way is prohibited
Now game it.........
The nrl22 doesn’t dictate what standing is, common sense does that. 2 feet on the ground is a stipulation to standing since it’s possible to stand on one leg.
@308pirate you sound like the type that has never shot a PRS, NRL, or NRL22 match yet likes to spout off for hours a day on SH acting like a gamer tough guy.
Let's see, the first line in the ACTUAL definition of the word 'stand':
1a : to support oneself on the feet in an erect position
Hmmm...how is squatting an 'erect' position?
'erect' : rigidly upright or straight
Should I keep defining words?
How about this, the rules say "no tripods or shooting sticks.' Well I designed a replacement apex for my RRS tripod that has an aperture for a fourth leg. I put a wooden dowel in the that aperture that hangs and doesn't touch the ground. I should be able to use it on every stage since IT'S NOT A TRIPOD, right? If NRL was smart, they'd pay a lawyer thousands to re-write everything. Make the rulebook 200 pages long. "No shooting sticks allowed. Shooting sticks are defined as sticks, dowels, poles, rods, bats, hockey sticks, etc. Tripods not allowed, this includes all tripods, quad pods, penta pods, and n-pods up to infinity." Better?
There seems to be two types of shooters at matches. One type sees the intent or "spirit" of a stage, and the other type views every stage description and league rulebook line as an opportunity to lawyer it and take advantage of how it is written.
Let's see, the first line in the ACTUAL definition of the word 'stand':
1a : to support oneself on the feet in an erect position
Hmmm...how is squatting an 'erect' position?
'erect' : rigidly upright or straight
Should I keep defining words?
How about this, the rules say "no tripods or shooting sticks.' Well I designed a replacement apex for my RRS tripod that has an aperture for a fourth leg. I put a wooden dowel in the that aperture that hangs and doesn't touch the ground. I should be able to use it on every stage since IT'S NOT A TRIPOD, right? If NRL was smart, they'd pay a lawyer thousands to re-write everything. Make the rulebook 200 pages long. "No shooting sticks allowed. Shooting sticks are defined as sticks, dowels, poles, rods, bats, hockey sticks, etc. Tripods not allowed, this includes all tripods, quad pods, penta pods, and n-pods up to infinity." Better?
There seems to be two types of shooters at matches. One type sees the intent or "spirit" of a stage, and the other type views every stage description and league rulebook line as an opportunity to lawyer it and take advantage of how it is written.
I think a big problem in general is what people view as “gaming” (myself included) is picking apart the minutiae of a stage description and then asking/pressuring/bullying the RO or MD to allow them to do what they want. Or just doing it, knowing that basically no MD is going to zero them or kick them out of the match for doing it.
What gaming should be is creatively approaching a stage that is designed to have some open ended solution. Giving the shooter a choice in how to move, which targets to engage in which order, or which gear is beneficial to carry or not carry in a stage. Part of that is on the MD to design into stages as well. But asking an MD who is likely designing the COF in their spare time after their 9-5 is done and kids are in bed to write every stage as if they were a lawyer is not realistic.
What gaming should be is creatively approaching a stage that is designed to have some open ended solution. Giving the shooter a choice in how to move, which targets to engage in which order, or which gear is beneficial to carry or not carry in a stage. Part of that is on the MD to design into stages as well. But asking an MD who is likely designing the COF in their spare time after their 9-5 is done and kids are in bed to write every stage as if they were a lawyer is not realistic.
All these people thinking they are clever by squatting with two feet on the ground and "gaming the system ".
Yet haven't worked out you can very comfortably sit with both feet on the ground and be far more stable
Yet haven't worked out you can very comfortably sit with both feet on the ground and be far more stable
You can't talk "common sense" to a cheater
At my first and only NRL22 match a week ago, shooters were using tripods. Actually one PRS shooter in my squad shooting from the gate had the front of the rifle supported with plate and bag and the rear with a tripod.
I really want to go there for fun but it looks like it isn't much fun to watch cheaters (sorry forgot they are gamers now).
These cheaters get called out almost always by someone and then starts a big fight with lots of bad words yelling at each other.
This I think is a very bad example to the young shooters.
At my first and only NRL22 match a week ago, shooters were using tripods. Actually one PRS shooter in my squad shooting from the gate had the front of the rifle supported with plate and bag and the rear with a tripod.
I really want to go there for fun but it looks like it isn't much fun to watch cheaters (sorry forgot they are gamers now).
These cheaters get called out almost always by someone and then starts a big fight with lots of bad words yelling at each other.
This I think is a very bad example to the young shooters.
You'd be wrong. But won't waste my time on them until they get their mess fixed. I so wanted these organizations to mature into something that can be taken seriously but right now they're nothing more than outlaw games in everything but their name.
In the meantime USPSA has its shit together and that's where I spend my time and money.
In the few NRL22 matches I've shot there haven't been any super gear gamers, just bag-bipod-sling-rifle but NRL22X that's a different story. I actually thought tripods weren't allowed in standard NRL22.
In that we agree
That's the organization's job, not the MD's job. And they are failing miserably.
They aren't. It says that in the rules.
Gaming is having 2, 3 or 4 bags at different positions.
This pooping position is cheating and any MD that doesn't call it out should be ashamed.
These are the same people that shot the top part of the kyl rack (where the post meets the pipe) instead of the target. They actually had to say you have to shoot the target last year. Embarrassing.
Attachments
I'm lenient about the down rod since it's all 1/4", but the hanger, that's a miss I DGAF what the rule book doesn't say. Anyone who would try that and try to defend it, damn.
Tripods are illegal in NRL22.
But match directors can design bonus stages and add them on top of the 5 standardized stages. The bonus stages have zero effect on NRL22 points. But do effect who wins "the day". The bonus stages can be farther and use non srandardized items so shooters can experience the X format or just add challenge/something new. All the MD has to do is write up a stage description saying he wants to use a new doodad target or allow all gear and its good to go on a bonus stage.
And since you said they shot off a gate....I'd assume its a bonus stage since a gate is not one of the standardized barricades. Heck, was it even an actual NRL22 match? Or NRL22-like?
We had a bonus stage two years ago were the MD supplied a tripod. The tripod was an opportunity for people to try tripod shooting. It was not a means to game a portion. It WAS the barricade in essence.
But match directors can design bonus stages and add them on top of the 5 standardized stages. The bonus stages have zero effect on NRL22 points. But do effect who wins "the day". The bonus stages can be farther and use non srandardized items so shooters can experience the X format or just add challenge/something new. All the MD has to do is write up a stage description saying he wants to use a new doodad target or allow all gear and its good to go on a bonus stage.
And since you said they shot off a gate....I'd assume its a bonus stage since a gate is not one of the standardized barricades. Heck, was it even an actual NRL22 match? Or NRL22-like?
We had a bonus stage two years ago were the MD supplied a tripod. The tripod was an opportunity for people to try tripod shooting. It was not a means to game a portion. It WAS the barricade in essence.
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Supposedly we had that happen. Nobody defended it. As the shooter was not identified. I'm skeptical it even happened as it would be fairly easy to catch with a steep penalty if caught. But Atlas (local to us) made a plate that blocks the crossbar. It limits the full rotation but does adequately keep the issue from happening.
I would just make a 2x4 or railroad tie frame that limits what the shooter can see/shoot through.
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Yes it was an NRL22 match. The MD told us shooters in the morning that they switched to this format. So now you're telling me NRL22 rules do only apply to the 5 standardized stages and all other stages are open to whatever the shooter likes? Great, good luck finding shooters that are interested in this kind of "gaming".
Brings up a question, how can it be called a match when the shooters seem to make up the rules?
Let's call it a shooting event then and don't count any hits / points. Give the trophy's to the best "gamer".
As far as NRL concerned....the bonus stages don't even exist. They control no part of them. Each MD comes up with his own bonus stages.
Heck, he doesn't even have to do them if he/she so chooses. It gives the shooters more for their money. And no, the shooters DO NOT make the rules. The MATCH DIRECTOR writes up the bonus stage design and what is/isnt allowed. It doe not mean a bonus stage has no rules. It very well could mean MORE is restricted.
I tried making a 5 stage COF for submission but the NRL22 target kit is too limiting. I brought up expanding it for this season and was told it was too much to ask MD's to buy a few extra stands and a few extra small circles. I had a stage where NO BAGS were allowed and it was the timed stage.
But then NRL22 came up with Option 2 idea which isnt necessarily supported by the target kit.
