PRS Talk Get rid of production division and expand tactical division

[Dthomas3523]

In light of a few different discussions on here, I have a proposal.

Eliminate production class. Low end rifles and optics are now good enough that it doesn’t really matter. Tons of good rifles under the 2k and plenty of optics as well.

Expand tactical class:

.223, .308, 6.5creed, 300 wm (and any other round commonly used in mil/le)

Backpack, two bags, tripod(when allowed). No other gear on stages.

22lb weight limit

Trigger: ideally a limit, but a pain in the ass to regulate. If it slam fires, that’s no good

Chassis: list of approved stocks/chassis that are commonly used in le/mil or if you can cite a dept/agency/service using it, that’s g2g. (This would include almost all chassis on market)

No “gamer” attachments. This would be up to match director or what not. As more agencies/dept add accessories, they can be added to the approved list.


This could make tactical divisions more interesting and also give anyone who wants to see some gear limits somewhere to go.

You will however also lose most of your 6mm as they typically aren’t use as service weapons.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Another important note:

90% honor system.

RO of MD can check something out if they like, otherwise, it’s up to another shooter to raise the issue at which time the RO/MD will make proper ruling.

Any complaints after 1 hour of match completion are void. Bring it up when you see it or not at all.

 

[Mormegil87]

Can I ask why the weight limit?

 

[Dthomas3523]

Can I ask why the weight limit?

The class is designed around working rifles.

You’ll rarely see anyone carrying much over 20lb rifle.

Also, a lot of people seem to complain about people running 30lb rifles.

So, this division is a hybrid of limited class and tactical division.

 

[Apollo1218]

Turning into a government run agency. Just send it.

 

[Basher]

Maybe only tangentially related, but what about a "Vintage" or "Classic" division? You could limit it by year of production or military use. That would make mildot and early hash type reticles (P4F, GAP, etc.) competitive within their own realm, as well as fixed power optics and such. Just an idea I've thrown around. I have no good way to implement it (what time periods or how to break them up into smaller time frames, etc.), but it would be fun to have some lower cost or simpler tech rifles competing with each other. Maybe not a good idea on a national level, but it would still be fun to do!

 

[Mormegil87]

The class is designed around working rifles.

You’ll rarely see anyone carrying much over 20lb rifle.

Also, a lot of people seem to complain about people running 30lb rifles.

So, this division is a hybrid of limited class and tactical division.

Makes sense

 

[Mormegil87]

I would agree with most of your proposal but instead of two bags, make it one bag and one piece of ancillary gear to include another bag, tripod etc

 

[Austinjunks]

I need this

 

[Dthomas3523]

Maybe only tangentially related, but what about a "Vintage" or "Classic" division? You could limit it by year of production or military use. That would make mildot and early hash type reticles (P4F, GAP, etc.) competitive within their own realm, as well as fixed power optics and such. Just an idea I've thrown around. I have no good way to implement it (what time periods or how to break them up into smaller time frames, etc.), but it would be fun to have some lower cost or simpler tech rifles competing with each other. Maybe not a good idea on a national level, but it would still be fun to do!

I think that might make a good idea for a one off or occasional match.

Adding a lot of multiple divisions adds a lot of work.

My proposal would somewhat combine two divisions as well as making a semi “limited” division.

 

[Drywaller2003]

I would completely agree with the loss of production, but I would like to see a youth division. Give kids a reason to want to run in the series against people of their own age, not in the open or tactical class. I understand that it's not right to give the only kid at a match a top run of the prize table, but give them a certificate to something, that's reasonable considering they have to pay the same entry fee.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I would completely agree with the loss of production, but I would like to see a youth division. Give kids a reason to want to run in the series against people of their own age, not in the open or tactical class. I understand that it's not right to give the only kid at a match a top run of the prize table, but give them a certificate to something, that's reasonable considering they have to pay the same entry fee.

I think this is something an individual MD could accommodate for. That is, until there are enough juniors consistently shooting to warrant an actual division.

MD could look at his list of entries, see how many juniors are shooting and decide if he wants to set a couple things aside from the table.

Could also consider a lower entry fee for juniors as well.

 

[Dthomas3523]

One of my main pet peeves is calling a division “tactical” which would imply “practical,” yet allowing it to essentially be an open division restricted to two calibers.

Call it limited, call it .223/.308, call it whatever you want, but if the current rules continue, it’s anything but tactical.

Also, is anyone really even competing in production? I don’t figure too many people are paying $250 and taking a savage out there. So might as well nix that.

 

[onebadmofo]

I thread like this is the problem and only hurts the Production Div numbers, lets say a guy is sitting there wanting to get into the PRS and feels that the Production is for him then he reads something like this rethinks it and does nothing because he does not have the funds or the skill level to compete in Open.

The shaming on the Production Div needs to STOP.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I thread like is the problem and only hurt the Production Div numbers, lets say a guy sitting there wanting to get into the PRS and feels that the Production is for him then he reads something like this and rethinks it and does nothing because he does not have the funds or the skill level to compete in Open.

The shaming on the Production Div needs to STOP.

If he can afford the $250 entry fee, travel to and from, ammo, and lodging, he can afford to buy a 3-4k rig.

If not, he can still shoot his savage or Remington, or whatever against everyone else. There is nothing holding those guns back from winning.

If someone can not afford a better rifle, then they are making an extremely poor financial decision spending 1-3k to shoot the match.


This is not shaming, this is just being real. Not everyone can afford to shoot PRS and not everyone gets a trophy.

 

[onebadmofo]

Thinking like this is the problem....... what does it matter to you what Div a guy shoots in? why should you care?

 

[Dthomas3523]

Thinking like this is the problem....... what does it matter to you what Div a guy shoots in? why should you care?

I don’t care. You’re the one who brought it up.

There are literally very, very few people who pay $250 to shoot production. It’s not even worth having because there are so few.

How many people do you know that run factory rifles and are chomping at the bit to spend more than their rifle is worth to shoot in a match?

 

[onebadmofo]

You are not seeing that you are part of the problem..... your thinking only hurts the Production Div.

 

[Dthomas3523]

12 people paid the PRS membership fee and shot production class.

12.........

 

[onebadmofo]

Maybe in 2019 there may be 20 or 25 let it grow.

 

[Dthomas3523]

You are not seeing that you are part of the problem..... your thinking only hurts the Production Div.

Feel free to figure out to get people to spend more money to ATTEND the event, than they paid for their rifle.

Not people trying to game a division......beginner, new people, people on a budget, the people you are alluding to.

You tell me how you can get them to justify spending $1500 on an event with a sub $2k rifle.

Don’t worry, I’ll wait.......

 

[Dthomas3523]

Maybe in 2019 there may be 20 or 25 let it grow.

There were 16 in 2017.

25% decrease.........

 

[onebadmofo]

First of all I don't have the same thinking as you do, I came from a Drag racing back ground with many Divisions based on how much money a person has to spend and skill level, that person moves up a Div as they feel like they should or they stay race and have fun..... this is no different.

 

[Dthomas3523]

First of all I don't have the same thinking as you do, I came from a Drag racing back ground with many Divisions based on how much money a person has to spend and skill level, that person moves up a Div as they feel like they should or they stay race and have fun..... this is no different.

Again, justify to someone to spend $1500 for the weekend, to shoot their $1500 rifle.

Gonna be a tough sell.

 

[onebadmofo]

This whole sport you can't justify the money that is spent on any level........ Again I am not the one calling to get rid of the Production Div you are I hope it grows.

 

[Dthomas3523]

But I’m sure they aren’t showing up because they got their feelings hurt by me or someone else in a forum and that’s why they stayed at home.

Not because they don’t take their shooting seriously enough to spend that kind of money.

 

[onebadmofo]

You are missing my point.......maybe not this thread but 5 others like yours can turn a person away. And why would you want to do that or be apart of that?

 

[Dthomas3523]

Because it’s failing and failing for a reason. And it’s not because guys read something negative about it. Some of the worst shooters I know have open rigs. It’s nothing to do with their skills.

The only guys I know running true factory rifles can’t afford to shoot a 2 day prs event. It has nothing to do with their confidence or some thread online. It’s 100% their financial capabilities.

And there is nothing wrong with that. It’s responsible.


Production class is all but dead and a waste of manpower to track.

 

[Dthomas3523]

This thread was an attempt to be a productive discussion based on several threads that have been going on. Feel free to exit at any time.

I’ll even make it easy and make you a deal. If you want me to be able to read your responses, make sure someone screenshots it as I won’t see it.

In return, I won’t be able to see your millennial, hurt feeling, everyone gets a trophy, snowflake posts.

 

[onebadmofo]

"I won’t be able to see your millennial, hurt feeling, everyone gets a trophy, snowflake posts."


You are mistaken who I am...... If you don't know what SHAMING is THIS IS IT.

I have tried to have a nice convo with you about a topic that we disagree on and you have resorted to insults and name calling.

 

[Drywaller2003]

I have only shot production class in the 2 matches I have done on the prs circuit. My son's rifle was nicer than mine. It's not that I don't have the money to do the matches, it's that I personally don't have the time. 5 kids and 3 businesses keep a guy busy as fuck, but I see no reason to really keep production. Sure it's nice, but the match costs the same, you're not hitting the table faster, and it's NOT affecting your placement in the match....you as a shooter are doing that!! As for the "shaming" aspect of this goes.....well @Dthomas3523 I'm ready for it. I'm a big boy and understand it's the way it's gotta be to spit out the TRUTH!!! LMFAO

 

[Dthomas3523]

I have only shot production class in the 2 matches I have done on the prs circuit. My son's rifle was nicer than mine. It's not that I don't have the money to do the matches, it's that I personally don't have the time. 5 kids and 3 businesses keep a guy busy as fuck, but I see no reason to really keep production. Sure it's nice, but the match costs the same, you're not hitting the table faster, and it's NOT affecting your placement in the match....you as a shooter are doing that!! As for the "shaming" aspect of this goes.....well @Dthomas3523 I'm ready for it. I'm a big boy and understand it's the way it's gotta be to spit out the TRUTH!!! LMFAO

This is my point. You’re not there competing because there is or isn’t a production class.

And the arguement of competing against others in the class......what is there, 2, maybe 3 people out of 80+ that shoot production class?

And I’m not trying to speak badly of anyone who has competed in production. We all have our priorities, finances, goals, etc etc.

I just don’t see any reason to keep it around.

I think anyone who doubts their skill enough to think about not shooting in a $250 match is going to stick to club matches anyway. Except the guys who are “going for the experience.” And those guys likely have open guns anyway.

 

[Drywaller2003]

If you go to a national match to test the waters and see if this is your sport, you jumped in over your head and it's either gonna be an overwhelming feeling of inadequacy or a yeah I could get into this feeling at the end of a 2 day match. Your rifle you tried it with again will never be the determining factor. Your ability as a competitor or a every once in awhile guy is what motivates you. I shot the matches i have done with a 5rnd mag, because 10rnd mags weren't available till recently and it didnt deter me. And if they got rid of production, well I'd be there anyways!

 

[Drywaller2003]

Oh and my testing the waters in the sport was a 2 day match lol

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

The more rules you try to put on a given division, the more you open up chances for people to cheat (not game it - outright cheat by violating the rules) and the more you force MDs to be rules lawyers.
Tac was created to allow LE/MIL shooters to compete with their work rifles and ammo, hence the restriction to 223 and 308. Issued rifles for LE/MIL vary wildly depending on who is issuing gear, which is why there was never a rifle requirement.
The sport is still growing. The more restrictions you try to bring in and the more classes you try to force, the more you're going to stifle growth.

Personally, I think the current PRS divisions are just fine the way they are.

 

[Dthomas3523]

The more rules you try to put on a given division, the more you open up chances for people to cheat (not game it - outright cheat by violating the rules) and the more you force MDs to be rules lawyers.
Tac was created to allow LE/MIL shooters to compete with their work rifles and ammo, hence the restriction to 223 and 308. Issued rifles for LE/MIL vary wildly depending on who is issuing gear, which is why there was never a rifle requirement.
The sport is still growing. The more restrictions you try to bring in and the more classes you try to force, the more you're going to stifle growth.

Personally, I think the current PRS divisions are just fine the way they are.

Part of that is exactly my point. The tactical division was meant for guys to use their work rifle.

Guys using a 30lb open gun are literally gaming that division (in my mind its as close to cheating as you can get without actually cheating).


Also, you can’t possibly be suggesting that the answer to cheating is making less rules instead of enforcing them.

Also, how are they going to cheat the above rules? Using a heavier gun? Not exactly a huge deal and not hard to fix that.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

Part of that is exactly my point. The tactical division was meant for guys to use their work rifle.

Guys using a 30lb open gun are literally gaming that division (in my mind its as close to cheating as you can get without actually cheating).


Also, you can’t possibly be suggesting that the answer to cheating is making less rules instead of enforcing them.

Also, how are they going to cheat the above rules? Using a heavier gun? Not exactly a huge deal and not hard to fix that.

So MDs are going to what - sit there with a scale at every match to make sure nobody's over the weight limit? Randomly check during the match to make sure they didn't install a weight kit? Put ID tags on their bags and gear so they don't switch out bags at their vehicle between stages? Have to keep a constantly updated list of stocks/chassis and "gamer" accessories that are approved, and verify the shooter is using only those items?

What the hell benefit is there to any of those rules? The more rules you add, the more time you have to spend enforcing them, or they are meaningless. With the few rules that already exist in Tac, there's been multiple accusations of cheating as it is. Same goes for Production class.

The more you try to enforce arbitrary rules, the more you're going to cause people to either A) not bother with the sport, or B) not bother with other classes and just shoot open.

Edit... or C) say 'screw the rules' and just cheat, which will cause more people to take options A and B.

 

[DaleGribble82]

The class is designed around working rifles.

You’ll rarely see anyone carrying much over 20lb rifle.

Also, a lot of people seem to complain about people running 30lb rifles.

So, this division is a hybrid of limited class and tactical division.

30 pounds, what the hell are they carrying a fully loaded M107??

 

[Yoteski]

I like where this is going. I still say make people walk and move and the equipment will sort itself out.
It would be fun to get rid of the gamer guns( I actually run a dasher). Too bad someone doesn't make knock down targets that essentially require a 6.5 or greater to knock down. I'd really like to get back to field matches. Unknown ranges requiring reticle ranging, being mobile, and using guns that aren't set up for square range standard stages is where I'd really like to see a branch of the sport go.

 

[308pirate]

12 people paid the PRS membership fee and shot production class.

12.........

I've seen this same argument in USPSA before:

1. Kill Limited 10, only a few people shoot it
2. Kill revolver, only a few people shoot it

The proposals, wisely, fall on deaf ears. Why? Because proposals like yours are emotionally based and have no sound financial or practical basis behind it.

First of all, match (and in the case of USPSA, classification) administration and management costs the same whether you have one division or many. That was true in the days of paper shuffling and even more so with tools like Practiscore. The claims of "savings" by eliminating divisions do not stand up to financial scrutiny.

Another common (and false) assumption is that low participation divisions hurt participation in more popular divisions. LOL.....those who claim that can never seem to provide any solid evidence of their claim. Their only answer, when pressed, is that they're sure that those people playing now in the small divisions will move to the more popular divisions when theirs is eliminated. Is that so? What makes you think many of those who now find themselves out of the division they WANTED to shoot in won't just say fuck it and leave the sport? Do you want to find out the hard way?

Others, who conveniently don't shoot in the divisions targeted for elimination, bitch about how winning one of those divisions is like getting a "participation trophy" and so not worthy of the title. Well guess what sport, if you don't shoot in the division that you want to eliminate, what kind of trophy the winner gets is none of your business. And it is neither any of your business to decide if the title of division winner is worthy or not.

Before solving a problem, one has to articulate what the problem is. And so far it seems that they only problem with Production Division is that you don't think it's needed.

That's a personal problem and not a systemic problem with the sport.

Based on my prior experience seeing these same arguments in other action shooting sports, I'm pretty sure yours will fail too.

 

[morganlamprecht]

the production division is jacked now from how it was intended anyways

im pretty sure, originally, (going back a few years and my memory aint great), it was intended to be shot on Friday before the 2 day matches, limited to 75-100 rounds, and be cheaper than the normal entry...all that made sense for budget shooters, until MDs realized they didnt want to get an extra day worth of ROs so 2-5 production shooters could shoot a whole match the day before...i remember at RO one of the first production matches when they started it, it was like 4 guys who just got escorted around the range with an RO who kept score/spotted

as it sits now, youre basically paying a membership to have your scores on a different web page than everyone elses...you pay the same match fees, same COF, lumped into overall match placement....some places give a top production trophy, others dont

im fine with it being there, just needs to be revamped to work better...right now it doesnt work well

 

[m6z]

If he can afford the $250 entry fee, travel to and from, ammo, and lodging, he can afford to buy a 3-4k rig.

If not, he can still shoot his savage or Remington, or whatever against everyone else. There is nothing holding those guns back from winning.

If someone can not afford a better rifle, then they are making an extremely poor financial decision spending 1-3k to shoot the match.


This is not shaming, this is just being real. Not everyone can afford to shoot PRS and not everyone gets a trophy.

There are several new sub $2k rifle options. I would think production numbers will see an increase over the next year or two with the new options available.

 

[Ghost1941]

I'm in agreement with @Dthomas3523 in this one. Why limit the blaster for a division? A factory rifle in the hands of an experienced shooter isn't THAT far from a custom rifle.

The division limitations should emphasize equipment and practicality of the equipment in a field setting as opposed to caliber or whether it's a factory or custom rifle.

Limit the ancillary equipment. Open up the caliber restrictions to common factory ammunition and use the blaster you see fit.. sub 20 lbs.

A division that brings back the practical use... Like the Mammoth forces you to do. You're not lugging that 30lb blaster on the Mammoth or Purgatory or for a 12 mile movement or even from the SWAT/SRT vehicle to your observation site.

Our team uses a 6.5 CM rifle and a .338 Lapua.. So there are teams not confined to the .308 or .223 mantra for LEO

 

[anotherwannabe]

This thread really got me thinking... We should definitely dump international class. They're just gaming the system for trophies because they're too poor to fly to America to shoot real matches. There are only 4 of them even listed, they won't be missed. Seniors? They need to pony up for new knees, hips, and lasik on top of equipment and match fees. If they don't, they're just some old trophy whores - put 'em on the boat to the international guys. Ladies, I'm sorry to say its not going to be pretty.

It cracks me up how good some folks are at spending other people's money and telling them what they -should- be doing with their time... If anyone is so upset about 2 trophies and a webpage that they want to send out some custom guns for the clowns in production to use. Sign me up - I'll send you my address. Of course none of this MPA or Curtis stuff could possibly do, I've heard its pretty much the same as a factory RPR. So my shipment better be top shelf only!

For anyone else who stumbles into this... Come shoot production if what you've got is a production rifle. We have a great time and would love it if more people were shooting with us.

 

[Fsh4mny]

It is not a money thing for myself. I purpously use a production class rifle to get my feet wet and determine if I like this sport as much as i thought i would. I do know i want a open class rifle. I got a few certificates from the local club competitions i have done and greatly reduced the cost of the open class rifle (score)!! Now I have tried to call Defiance machine to order the action at the discount and have yet to recieve a return call it has been two and a half weeks. I also recieved a voucher for a prodeal for proof barrels and they have been gracious enough to work with me and honor the voucher.
Here i am ready to move up to the open class and unable to put together a open class rifle due to waiting on parts. I guess I will shoot a few more matches in production class and enjopy myself just like i have the previous times.

 

[teerex]

Maybe production will be a little more popular this year since there are classes in the regional matches now. I don't have any issue with production, but its amazing the amount of people concerned with having a production legal rig, compared to people who actually shoot in production class.

 

[onebadmofo]

The Production rifle has filled a gap between the $700 to 900 factory rifle and the $3500 to $4500 custom, what is being offered for $2000 is an amazing value and people are buying them. This gap needed to be filled.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I've seen this same argument in USPSA before:

1. Kill Limited 10, only a few people shoot it
2. Kill revolver, only a few people shoot it

The proposals, wisely, fall on deaf ears. Why? Because proposals like yours are emotionally based and have no sound financial or practical basis behind it.

First of all, match (and in the case of USPSA, classification) administration and management costs the same whether you have one division or many. That was true in the days of paper shuffling and even more so with tools like Practiscore. The claims of "savings" by eliminating divisions do not stand up to financial scrutiny.

Another common (and false) assumption is that low participation divisions hurt participation in more popular divisions. LOL.....those who claim that can never seem to provide any solid evidence of their claim. Their only answer, when pressed, is that they're sure that those people playing now in the small divisions will move to the more popular divisions when theirs is eliminated. Is that so? What makes you think many of those who now find themselves out of the division they WANTED to shoot in won't just say fuck it and leave the sport? Do you want to find out the hard way?

Others, who conveniently don't shoot in the divisions targeted for elimination, bitch about how winning one of those divisions is like getting a "participation trophy" and so not worthy of the title. Well guess what sport, if you don't shoot in the division that you want to eliminate, what kind of trophy the winner gets is none of your business. And it is neither any of your business to decide if the title of division winner is worthy or not.

Before solving a problem, one has to articulate what the problem is. And so far it seems that they only problem with Production Division is that you don't think it's needed.

That's a personal problem and not a systemic problem with the sport.

Based on my prior experience seeing these same arguments in other action shooting sports, I'm pretty sure yours will fail too.

None of this has anything to do with the reasoning behind my suggestion.

 

[Dthomas3523]

If production class returned to something like @morganlamprecht posted, that would make it something worthwhile IMO.

 

[Sheldon N]

While I’m not a fan of production division, mainly because it is too small and doesn’t factor in shooter experience or prior competition placements, I don’t see it going away.

Too many major manufacturers have geared up products for the division. PRS lives on the partnerships it has with the industry, and it is not going to burn those bridges anytime soon.