Getting LaRue OBR 5.56 to group

[bluto77]

I recently purchased a LaRue OBR 5.56 with 18" barrel from a fellow snipershide member. I am fully aware of the opinions many people on this board have of Mark LaRue, and to a lesser degree, his rifles. This thread is not intended to be a place for people to chime in with nothing more to contribute than, "LaRue sucks" or "Phuck Mark LaRue". I'm just discussing the new OBR I have and showing groups I've gotten so far. They are not consistent with what the rifle is supposed to be capable of, and I have not figured out what the issue is yet, but I also haven't tried everything I can think of yet either. This thread is basically a carryover from Elfster's 100 yard challenge thread, in which I posted groups from my LaRue OBR and Colt CRP-18. Elfster started asking questions that I knew would lead to that thread getting off track, so I started this one. Again, I'm not looking for anyone's opinion on Mark LaRue, the price of his rifles, his business practices, or anything of that nature. Simply having a conversation about getting this rifle to group, along with trying to learn more about my own abilities and how they can be improved.

Last week I finally completed a full 5 round 6 group 100 yard target for Elfster's thread with both my Colt CRP-18 .223 and LaRue OBR 5.56 18" barrel. I've had the Colt for about 6 months, and I just got the LaRue. I intended on selling the Colt, but so far, I have not been able to get the LaRue to outperform it. I've been spending the majority of my range time on my bolt guns, so I haven't really shot the Colt all that much. I figured doing the 100 yard challenge would be the best way to find out which rifle works best. I took them both out the weekend before last right after getting the LaRue. My buddy and I both shot groups with them. I will post pics from then and from last week when doing the 100 yard challenge.

Here's a description of both rifles:
LaRue OBR 5.56
Barrel: 18" - 1:8 twist
Scope: Vortex Razor 5-20, Mil/Mil
Mount: American Rifle Company M10 QD-L
Trigger: Geissele SSA Two-stage

Colt CRP-18 .223 Wylde
Barrel" 18" - 1:8 twist
Scope: SWFA 5-20 Mil/mil
Mount: Burris REPR (I know...cheap tires on a cadillac...but it works)
Trigger: Geissele SSA-E

If you were to read the specs on both you'd see they are basically the same rifle with a couple of exceptions. The Geissele two stage is a solid feeling trigger that you can feel both stages on. The SSA-E is called a two stage, but I only notice one stage. It's easier to smoothly pull the SSA-E compared to the true two stage. But I don't see that making a huge difference. The other difference is the chambering. 5.56 for the LaRue and .223 Wylde for the Colt. They both can fire the 5.56 and .223, but for the purposes of my tests I used 5.56 ammo for the LaRue and .223 ammo for the Colt.

These are pictures from 6/29/13 when my buddy and I both shot each rifle. The LaRue had approximately 70 rounds down the tube when these were taken, so I attributed the crappy groups to not being broken in yet. I was also trying some new shooting techniques that I had learned in a thread I started about "driving" gas guns and "loading bipods", but I did not use a bipod. These were shot with front and back bags from a cement bench. I was using Black Hills OTM 77gr. The pic is mine and the 2nd is my buddy. Elfster had suggested letting a buddy shoot the LaRue to see if he was getting something different to rule out any variables. There are only 4 groups of each.

My Groups
LaRue avg: 2.271
Colt avg: .965

My Buddy's Groups
LaRue avg: 2.987
Colt avg: 1.593

I went out on July 3 and did the full 6 group 100 yard challenge with both of the rifles at the same time. I alternated shooting 3 groups with each rifle until all 12 were shot. I used the same Black Hills OTM 77gr ammo. 5.56 for the LaRue and .223 for the Colt. More information had been posted in my "drive gas gun/load bipod" thread, namely from Lowlight, and I was applying some of it this day. So slightly altering a shooting technique is another variable to add to this equation. However, as you can see, it did not effect the Colt as much as it did the LaRue. Another factor, I had ran 200 additional rounds through the Larue prior to this trip to the range. So at this point, the LaRue had about 300 rounds and should be considered broken in. The Colt had around 500.

Colt Avg: .978

LaRue Avg: 1.68
Also note, as per Elfster's 100 yd challenge rules, all flyers count. There was one really bad flyer, or more likely just me yipping the shot because I was on my last group and pissed off (top right hand group), so that one shot opened the group up to 3.542, which was considerably outside the standard deviation of the groups. So I've assumed I used a measurement as if I had hit the dead center of the target which would've made that group be 1.322, and used that to get the 1.68 avg. Otherwise, the average would be 2.05, and I don't think that is a realistic measurement for purposes of this discussion.

One of the first things Elfster brought up was scope/mount, and to possibly remount the scope and shoot all over again to see if that was the problem. I don't think that is the problem. It's a Vortex Razor mounted in an American Rifle Company one piece quality mount. I took this off of my .308 bolt gun and put directly onto the LaRue without taking the scope out of the rings. Below is a picture of groups shot with the .308, and this is using remanufactured ammo from freedom munitions. The rifle is capable of much better, but this should negate the scope issue variable (or at least I think it does).

So here's where I'm at so far. I'm going back out on Saturday to see what else I can do with it. One thing I haven't played with yet is the gas adjustment. Fine tuning it could close the groups in a bit, but I've never adjusted the Colt. Also, LaRue recommends using FGMM 77gr, and I've been using Black Hills match 77gr stuff. I'll try to get my hands on a couple of boxes of FGMM to test with, but I can't imagine that alone closing the groups nearly .75" to get them into the guaranteed sub MOA accuracy LaRue touts. The other variable is the bore. I usually clean the bore after a trip to the range, but I did not clean either one before the 7/3 trip. Both rifles had at least 100 rounds of carbon and copper build up in the bore going to the range.

As I'm sure you can tell, I'm one of the newer guys that's here to learn. There are plenty of things I think I know, but I'm not going to put those out here right now. I'm open to feedback from you more experienced guys on what could be causing this.

 

[-Nick-]

You need to try different ammo. My GAP-10 grouped terrible with Blackhill match ammo. I would see how it groups with some FGMM, Hornady AMAX, and maybe some Southwest or Copper Creek. Also try a 69gr and see if they tighten up. You should be getting at least 1 moa or better.

 

[bluto77]

I'm searching high and low for FGMM 77gr as that's what LaRue recommends. I figure that could change things. No luck yet.

 

[elfster1234]

First things first, it would be nice if you could post a pic of the rifle on the OP.... It would be interesting to check it out to see if there has been any mods to the rifle.

Second, if you were using a red dot or a 1-4 power scope, then I wouldn't be having this conversation with you... BUT you're rocking a 5-20 scope so this is an issue IMO. Something is up with the rifle.

hmmm, you know after checking out both your colt & larue target groups I think it is safe to say it is not shooter error especially after checking out your buddy's groups.... after checking out your group pics from other rifles I think it is safe to say you're an above average shooter... as much as I hate to say this, sometimes you just can't get some rifles to shoot and it can be a real pain in the ass (especially $money$ wise) trying to figure it all out & is better to just sell the rifle and move on... There is something going on with that rifle for damn sure and maybe that's why it was sold. I know some guys that will sell a rifle if it will not group after 100 rounds down the tube (if they can't get groups under 2moa @ 100yards on average)... Someone you might want to PM on this issue is BM11, as he just kinda went through this whole issue with a LMT (somewhat comparing apples to oranges with a 5.56 vs .308 though & the groups IMO weren't that bad actually), but regardless it wouldn't hurt to talk to BM11 and get his thoughts on the issue (pretty smart dude).

As for your posting it is was really good and informative and I'm sure the rest of here on SH can chime in to help you out friend and get this all figured out.

Yes, I have found that when getting a new rifle that it takes some rounds down the tube (like damn near 300plus) for the groups to really settle in, BUT that would not be a concern of mine with a new rifle if the groups started out around 1.5 to 1moa @ 100yards (with maybe a blue moon group sub moa here and there)..... IMO, getting 3 out of 6 groups sub-moa is a really good goal to shoot for with a semi-auto (and would be happy with any rifle that could do so),,,, but I think it would be hard pressed to get your larue to perform to those expectations..... for some damn reason your groups are averaging well over 2moa and some groups (both yours & your buddy's) are well over 3moa & damn near 4moa so there is without a doubt something fishy with the rifle in comparison to your groups with the colt.

Let me put some thought into this and get back to you. About the only thing I can suggest is what I've already stated before in the other thread and that is eliminating each possible issue which you don't need me to tell you this stuff.. We know it is not shooter error. Try mounting your other scope on the rifle (as much as I hate doing this myself), and take some more shots with the bag, then maybe with a bipod (loading and not loading)... Trial and error type stuff. I don't think using reloads or any other type of factory ammo is going to bring well over 2moa groups on average (with some groups over 3moa & damn near 4moa) down to sub-moa.


Have you tried calling larue yet and getting their thoughts on the issue? and if you could send it in, what would be the turn around time? I would hate to see you throw away good money after bad (with shipping costs and ammo$$ already spent)... I've have had 2 other semi-auto's in my life that just wouldn't shoot for shit (no matter what I did) and going through those experiences I found that after 150 rounds or so (IF THE GROUPS ARE WELL OVER 2" ON AVERAGE) if I can't get it too shoot sometimes it is just better to walk away before too much money is invested on something that will never produce a return. I'm just being straight up honest here. I would like to see you keep the rifle and be happy, but sometimes there is only so much you can do. Lets try to figure out a low cost solution to this issue and then go from there first.

Too bad I don't live close by, Id load up some 60gr vmax's and give it a shot... My 1:8 twist loves 60gr vmax's.
Thank you for your posting friend.

 

[haroldwilson]

Mine shoots 77 gr lights out, including Copper Creek, FGMM, and Black Hills. The GMM did better than the Copper Creek. Haven't shot the Black Hills for groups against the other two. I have shot steel with the Black Hills and it was certainly sub moa.

I would try a different scope on it to rule that out. I know you said it came straight off a bolt gun, but I would want to eliminate that possibility.

 

[bluto77]

hmmm, you know after checking out both your colt & larue target groups I think it is safe to say it is not shooter error especially after checking out your buddy's groups.... after checking out your group pics from other rifles I think it is safe to say you're an above average shooter....

I think you may be overstating my ability a tad bit! I'd like to think we could rule out shooter error, but I'm not ruling it out yet. I also think I really should try more than one type of ammo (the only other type has been cheapo Independence 5.56 55gr) before I start saying there is something fishy with the rifle. Maybe this is wishful thinking on my end, but I'm going to try to get my hands on some 69's and 62's for this weekend. If it won't group any better with different ammo, then I suppose I can swap out the glass with a different rifle and see what happens. I just find it hard to believe (again...possibly wishful thinking) that the same Vortex Razor, sitting in the same mount, unchanged, would be the culprit of 2 to 3 MOA shooting when the .308 bolt gun with crap ammo shot 5 out of 6 groups sub MOA, with 3 of those closing in on .5 MOA. That scope sits in my safe in between trips to the range. I'll try some of the other things you mentioned as well. If I'm still having no luck, then I'll have to hit up BM11 for his insight.

Here are some pics of the rifle. The only "modification" would be the green rail guards that I swapped out with the black ones. And disregard the bipod. I haven't used it. Only shot off of bags.

 

[elfster1234]

ahhhh! ok, if that is the case, then yes... might not hurt to try some other ammo for damn sure if it is ultra crappy ammo.

one thing is for damn sure, WOW! now that is one sexy rifle... it would be awesome to get it to shoot sub-moa! Damn, that is one awesome looking rifle!

keep us informed on the rifle and the better ammo.. you might be on to something there... I know my 1:8 loves 60grn vmax and heavier bullets. The absolute MIN i'll run on my 1:8 is 55grn FMJ's.

I think you may be overstating my ability a tad bit! I'd like to think we could rule out shooter error, but I'm not ruling it out yet. I also think I really should try more than one type of ammo (the only other type has been cheapo Independence 5.56 55gr) before I start saying there is something fishy with the rifle. Maybe this is wishful thinking on my end, but I'm going to try to get my hands on some 69's and 62's for this weekend. If it won't group any better with different ammo, then I suppose I can swap out the glass with a different rifle and see what happens. I just find it hard to believe (again...possibly wishful thinking) that the same Vortex Razor, sitting in the same mount, unchanged, would be the culprit of 2 to 3 MOA shooting when the .308 bolt gun with crap ammo shot 5 out of 6 groups sub MOA, with 3 of those closing in on .5 MOA. That scope sits in my safe in between trips to the range. I'll try some of the other things you mentioned as well. If I'm still having no luck, then I'll have to hit up BM11 for his insight.

Here are some pics of the rifle. The only "modification" would be the green rail guards that I swapped out with the black ones. And disregard the bipod. I haven't used it. Only shot off of bags.

 

[elfster1234]

you know what after checking out this pic and i'm glad you posted it now.... try getting your scope mount on the main rail... it is actually sharing two different rails and is not a true monolithic rail... that could make a big diff right there! do you happen to have a 1pc cantilever mount so the scope mount is JUST on the main rail of the upper?

I would almost bet money this is the main issue if not most of it right there (do you happen to have a nice 1pc cantilever scope mount so the mount is ONLY on the main upper rail??).... with maybe some better ammo might turn things around in a hurry.

 

[bluto77]

I've gone the dreaded gunbroker route, but screw it, I want to know what's up on this. I've scored some FGMM 69gr 2.23, Hornady 75gr VMAX 5.56, and still looking for FGMM 77gr. Since the rifle is chambered in 5.56, I know I can shoot .223 as well. How much of an effect will that have on accuracy?

I was under the impression that the rail was all one piece. Here's what it says on the LaRue website:

Upper, lower and rails are CNC-machined from 7075-T6, Type-III hard anodized
10 MOA built into a continuous, T-marked, 1-piece upper rail

I don't have a cantilever 35mm rail. I'm sure somebody is trying to get rid of one in the options and accessories board. But do you think this could really be a factor?

 

[elfster1234]

maybe someone else could chime in on this issue, but unless your upper looks like my LMT MWS "true monolithic" upper, I would NEVER split up the scope mount especially if the rail has a split break in it and the handguard is mounted to the upper with bolts. Yes, I think this is your issue big time BUT I would like to get some more experienced members to chime in on this issue before you spend good money... I could be totally wrong on this...

See on my LMT that it has a true monolithic "non spliced" upper? IMO, then you could get away with this, but your rifle is not the case.

I've gone the dreaded gunbroker route, but screw it, I want to know what's up on this. I've scored some FGMM 69gr 2.23, Hornady 75gr VMAX 5.56, and still looking for FGMM 77gr. Since the rifle is chambered in 5.56, I know I can shoot .223 as well. How much of an effect will that have on accuracy?

I was under the impression that the rail was all one piece. Here's what it says on the LaRue website:

I don't have a cantilever 35mm rail. I'm sure somebody is trying to get rid of one in the options and accessories board. But do you think this could really be a factor?

 

[elfster1234]

although the rail itself is one 1pc, the handguard is still attached to the upper with bolts, and then the 1pc rail is mounted to the handguard with bolts.... you still have two separate systems going on here (please, someone correct me if i'm wrong here as I've never owned a larue before).... It is not like you have a true monolithic rail.

This is what its all about... process of elimination and discussion. Double check with some guys on the hide with this issue i'm talking about before you spend good money on a new scope mount...

see if you have a friend with a QD cantilever scope mount / scope set up that he can easily pop off and test on your rig.. it wouldn't hurt.

I've gone the dreaded gunbroker route, but screw it, I want to know what's up on this. I've scored some FGMM 69gr 2.23, Hornady 75gr VMAX 5.56, and still looking for FGMM 77gr. Since the rifle is chambered in 5.56, I know I can shoot .223 as well. How much of an effect will that have on accuracy?

I was under the impression that the rail was all one piece. Here's what it says on the LaRue website:

I don't have a cantilever 35mm rail. I'm sure somebody is trying to get rid of one in the options and accessories board. But do you think this could really be a factor?

 

[elfster1234]

see on my 3G1, it has a cantilever rail & it is mounted to ONLY the main upper rail directly above the bolt.... Your larue should be BLOWING my DPMS 3G1 out of the water at 100yards, and this was done with a 1-4 power scope. We will get this figured out one way or another.

I've gone the dreaded gunbroker route, but screw it, I want to know what's up on this. I've scored some FGMM 69gr 2.23, Hornady 75gr VMAX 5.56, and still looking for FGMM 77gr. Since the rifle is chambered in 5.56, I know I can shoot .223 as well. How much of an effect will that have on accuracy?

I was under the impression that the rail was all one piece. Here's what it says on the LaRue website:

I don't have a cantilever 35mm rail. I'm sure somebody is trying to get rid of one in the options and accessories board. But do you think this could really be a factor?

 

[bluto77]

Here's a pic of the Colt. It has a cantilever mount that is only over one part of the upper.

By the way, thanks for all the good information. I'm sure I'll be thanking you again before this is over with.

 

[elfster1234]

Thats totally what i would do! Pop that scope set up off your colt and test it on the larue.... Worse that can happen is you need to re zero the scope for the colt again. I really think this will fix your issue and it will not cost you a dime to see if it really is the issue.... Test the "colt scope set up" with some good ammo and get this figured out once and for all. Hopefully this is the issue and ill see that larue in the top ten. Cross fingers.

Here's a pic of the Colt. It has a cantilever mount that is only over one part of the upper.

By the way, thanks for all the good information. I'm sure I'll be thanking you again before this is over with.

 

[bluto77]

Hopefully so. Hopefully you'll see both the Colt and LaRue in the top 10. The Colt is VERY close! If the scope not being mounted on just one part of the rail is the main problem, I'm going to feel like a freakin moron for not knowing that. I don't think I've heard not to do that, and if I have, I obviously don't remember. You will definitely know how it turns out. All others, please feel free to weigh in on all of this. All help is appreicated.

 

[346ci]

As mentioned, I'd get the scope mount on the upper receiver and off any part of the rail. Your setup on the OBR has been known to cause accuracy issues..

 

[Redmanss]

I'll chime in here and hopefully it gives a bit of help. First, I don't think it's the scope mount. It would be one thing to bridge across a DD Lite or similar rail, but this one is more of a hybrid between a monolithic and a two piece. There is a solid rail that runs the length between the upper and the forearm, and he has a one piece mount to boot so that would further negate any flex being encountered. To top it off the forearm and upper are bolted against each other on a flanged surface, further reducing the possibility of any flex (unless it's way out of spec). I'm not saying it's not possible, but I do feel it's highly unlikely.

Larue gives a sub-MOA accuracy guarantee (do they test fire? IDK), but since this is a second hand rifle to you, I can't find if they will still honor that guarantee. Speaking of second hand, was it NIB and unshot when you got it? That makes me wonder about a damaged barrel from cleaning (somebody trying to "break it in REEEAAALLL GOOD") or whatnot if it was not. If it truly was a new rifle when you received it, then I would have to assume it's something else here other than the rifle itself.

By the way, the Larue website states .223 Wylde for the chamber. Is yours actually stamped 5.56 NATO? LaRue Tactical OBR 5.56 18 Inch | LaRue Tactical

That makes me wonder if it is in fact the shooter(s). I don't know your overall skill level, but you're new to semi-autos, right? They require a different touch than the bolt guns, especially on the follow-through and I have to ask if that couldn't be what is getting you. The trigger you have in there is a very fine trigger indeed, but it still requires the finesse a stock trigger does. When you fire the shot, you have to exaggerate your follow-through; continue the breath hold, sighting, trigger pressure straight to the rear and everything else for at least two seconds after the shot has fired. Once the shot has fired and you had your pause for follow-through, release the trigger and take your breath. You should hear and feel the trigger reset when you do this. If you don't or aren't, you're doing it wrong. This is an absolute must in order to learn AR shooting the right way. You do shoot decent with the Colt, but I'm still seeing flyers that really shouldn't be there either. Maybe you do better with that trigger or something, but don't give up on that SSA-E either. Your position as well can be the cause here. Post a video of you actually shooting (or view one of yourself if you're good at trouble shooting errors) and maybe this will help you and us decode what's going on here.

I hope it's a simple marksmanship fix for you and you don't have to go through the warranty process on this one. While it's humbling when I realize it was the dope behind the rifle (me) and not the dope on the rifle, I much prefer that to whipping out the credit card!

 

[Redmanss]

Is that daylight I'm seeing between the upper and the forearm at the top of the seam, or is that just a little white/silver mark? If that's daylight, I might eat my words on it not being the scope mount setup because that gap might actually be opening it up for flex...

 

[poison123]

Ya there shouldn't be any daylight visible between the rail and body. At least there wasn't on mine forever and a day ago.

Also when I had mine, it loved the 75grain Horandy bullets, and the 77gr Atlanta Arms and Ammo Match ammo.

 

[bullseye13]

When you bought the rifle did the seller send it with the original case? If he did they normally send it with the test target tucked behind the foam with the owners manual. They send a target with every gun. I believe if it doesnt shoot 3/4 and under they wont send it. Test target will say what ammo the group was shot with. If you cant find the target, or it wasn't sent, try and contact the seller first just to see if remembers what the group size was. Otherwise I'm sure Larue will look at it and make it right. You should need zero break in for the rifle to should a decent group. I would try shooting prone useing your bipod and a rear bag next time your out for a more solid rest. Good luck, Nice looking rifle.

 

[bluto77]

I'll check to see if that's a tiny mark or daylight. I bought the rifle from a guy on snipershide, and while I don't blindly accept everything is what it is supposed to be on the internet, I trust people on this website more than most any other. I have no reason to believe it was shot, and if it was, the previous owner did a helluva job making it look nib.

Redmanns, I'd like to think the only issue here is the dope behind the scope. It certainly seems most likely. I started this thread about driving gas guns to get the info you described before I shot the 6 group challenge http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...se-explain-driving-gas-gun-loading-bipod.html. I was already following through on the trigger and holding it until I saw the bullet hole in the target, but I did apply other things from the thread that lowlight posted about NPA and keeping my shoulders square to the target. Keeping them square to the trigger was big change, and it felt awkward at first, but my group on the larue closed by over .5moa (not counting the lone flyer on the top right group which was a frustrated shot #30). This combined with the different two stage trigger of the larue is what leads me to believe its shooter error combined with the wrong ammo. Mind you, it's not like that geissele trigger is hard to use by any means, but when using side by side with the SSA-E, which breaks almost as easily as one of the jewell triggers on my bolt guns, its just "different". Next time I go, I'm going to shoot all 6 groups in a row with the larue after one warm up group and not go back and forth between rifles.

My shooting experience is I've been around guns my entire life, but just started shooting at targets for groups last summer. I got my first gas gun last may. I've only been this serious about it though for the last 5 months or so.



Pics added:

I should also add, I have owned a LaRue PredatAR 7.62 last year for a few months, so I am familiar with what all of the packaging looks like and what it looks like new from the factory dealer. I believe the rifle was NIB when I received it.

Here's a pic of the test target from LaRue, and a pic of the small silver mark on the rifle confirming it was not daylight that was showing.

 

[bluto77]

When you bought the rifle did the seller send it with the original case? If he did they normally send it with the test target tucked behind the foam with the owners manual. They send a target with every gun. I believe if it doesnt shoot 3/4 and under they wont send it. Test target will say what ammo the group was shot with. If you cant find the target, or it wasn't sent, try and contact the seller first just to see if remembers what the group size was. Otherwise I'm sure Larue will look at it and make it right. You should need zero break in for the rifle to should a decent group. I would try shooting prone useing your bipod and a rear bag next time your out for a more solid rest. Good luck, Nice looking rifle.

Yes, rifle came with all of the original new packaging and case.

 

[poison123]

When you bought the rifle did the seller send it with the original case? If he did they normally send it with the test target tucked behind the foam with the owners manual. They send a target with every gun. I believe if it doesnt shoot 3/4 and under they wont send it. Test target will say what ammo the group was shot with. If you cant find the target, or it wasn't sent, try and contact the seller first just to see if remembers what the group size was. Otherwise I'm sure Larue will look at it and make it right. You should need zero break in for the rifle to should a decent group. I would try shooting prone useing your bipod and a rear bag next time your out for a more solid rest. Good luck, Nice looking rifle.

3/4's I don't think so bud. My OBR Heavy came with a 1.** inch test target. Though the rifle did shoot much better than that, just pointing out as long as their test target is under a moa they will release it.

 

[sinister]

Good recommendations above to try the scope on the Colt on the Larue.

I'm not sure but I think the Larues come with a Geissele S2S rather than an SSA. What exactly do you mean it feels like a single stage trigger?

but for the purposes of my tests I used 5.56 ammo for the LaRue and .223 ammo for the Colt.

I used the same Black Hills OTM 77gr ammo. 5.56 for the LaRue and .223 for the Colt.

Apples and oranges. If you're gonna compare guns and grouping potential use the same base line ammo. "I wanted to compare how the rifles group so I fired custom hand loads in the Colt and garbage Com Bloc import steel case in the OBR." Perhaps a bit exaggerated, but see how that might skew results?

 

[800mZero]

I hate to tell you I sold my larue Costa because I couldn't get it to shoot like advertised. Mine came with a .77 test target and I couldn't replicate anything under an inch using the suggested 77 grain ammo with a 10x leupy.

I called larue and they basically told me it was me. After explaining I could get my knights mod 1 to shoot under and 1moa with fair consistency,using the same setup, I was basically told to keep shooting it, and maybe I was expecting to much for a 14.5 carbine.

Needless to say I haven't bought anything from Larue since.

 

[-Nick-]

I hate to tell you I sold my larue Costa because I couldn't get it to shoot like advertised. Mine came with a .77 test target and I couldn't replicate anything under an inch using the suggested 77 grain ammo with a 10x leupy.

I called large and they basically told me it was me. After explaining I could get my knights mod 1 to shoot under and 1moa with fair consistency,using the same setup, I was basically told to keep shooting it, and maybe I was expecting to much for a 14.5 carbine.

Needless to say I haven't bought anything from Larue since.

Give you 3 guesses where the conversation will progress from here but I'll bet you only need 1... lol

 

[800mZero]

I'm sure. I will be honest I called larue and they were beyond helpful and offered to look at the rifle for me, honestly I was so frustrated by that point it felt better to rid myself of the problem.

Best I personaly could get it to shoot was 1.5-2moa.

ETA: my post was not meant to bash Larue in anyway, just to point out that even some of the best let a lemon out the door sometimes. Honestly call Larue they are always helpful.

 

[bullseye13]

3/4's I don't think so bud. My OBR Heavy came with a 1.** inch test target. Though the rifle did shoot much better than that, just pointing out as long as their test target is under a moa they will release it.

OK? 1" then. Someone above had me thinking 3/4". My point was you'd be able to see what the actual rifle supposedly shot at the factory to give you a baseline with said ammo.

 

[bluto77]

Give you 3 guesses where the conversation will progress from here but I'll bet you only need 1... lol

As per my first few sentences in the OP, let's make sure it doesn't go that direction. I'm a Texas boy. I want the LaRue to outperform the Colt so I keep it. Not a fanboy. LaRue has a proven track record, but I'm not clinging to that. i'll give it my best effort, and will contact LaRue if need be. But if it won't shoot, i can easily get my money back on gunbroker. No big deal.

I still think its more me and/or tbe ammo, not the rifle though....for the most part. I've only team two types of ammo through it, so it would be beyond unreasonable to start pointing my finger at the rifle, regardless of the manufacturer, at this point.

I was using black hills match 77gr 5.56 ammo for the larue. Should i also try the same black hills match 77gr .223?

 

[sinister]

Yup, fair's fair, regardless who made the barrel or what maker's name is engraved on the side.

Might make a difference, might not, but you don't have a single mechanical objective baseline established (except for a 1 MOA objective target).

You could also try Federal 69 Gold Medal Match -- an index round like the 308 FGMM in a bolt rifle. If your OBR won't shoot that round accurately then you should send it back.

How does the 5.56 group out of the Colt?

Maybe get a gunsmith to borescope the barrel.

 

[-Nick-]

As per my first few sentences in the OP, let's make sure it doesn't go that direction. I'm a Texas boy. I want the LaRue to outperform the Colt so I keep it. Not a fanboy. LaRue has a proven track record, but I'm not clinging to that. i'll give it my best effort, and will contact LaRue if need be. But if it won't shoot, i can easily get my money back on gunbroker. No big deal.

I still think its more me and/or tbe ammo, not the rifle though....for the most part. I've only team two types of ammo through it, so it would be beyond unreasonable to start pointing my finger at the rifle, regardless of the manufacturer, at this point.

I was using black hills match 77gr 5.56 ammo for the larue. Should i also try the same black hills match 77gr .223?

The .223 Wylde was designed for more accuracy out of a .223 but enabled you to be able to use both. I would try the .223 and see how it does. Again, try multiple types of match ammo as well as not just 77 but also 69gr or even 62gr. Every rifle is different and some just like it lighter.

 

[800mZero]

Just out of curiosity is your flashhider still tight?

 

[poison123]

As per my first few sentences in the OP, let's make sure it doesn't go that direction. I'm a Texas boy. I want the LaRue to outperform the Colt so I keep it. Not a fanboy. LaRue has a proven track record, but I'm not clinging to that. i'll give it my best effort, and will contact LaRue if need be. But if it won't shoot, i can easily get my money back on gunbroker. No big deal.

I still think its more me and/or tbe ammo, not the rifle though....for the most part. I've only team two types of ammo through it, so it would be beyond unreasonable to start pointing my finger at the rifle, regardless of the manufacturer, at this point.

I was using black hills match 77gr 5.56 ammo for the larue. Should i also try the same black hills match 77gr .223?

Just my opinion...think its you. Don't get that into your head, your shooting well with the colt...so its highly unlikely its you. Hell if anything swap the triggers between the two if you can so the feel is the same.

 

[BC 6.8]

I would take the lower off of the Colt and put it on the Larue to see if the better trigger helps you with groups. Also, I agree with taking the scope off of the Colt and trying it on the Larue. Make sure you are getting good shoulder pressure on the stock when you are shooting. I have found that a gas gun is much more challenging to shoot accurately and consistently vs. a bolt gun.

 

[samnev]

Just a thought. I have a SIG 556 that would not shoot under 1 moa with anything but 62 grain Sierra Match Kings. Those shot consistently 0.75" 5 shot 100 yard groups.

 

[problemchild]

I would try different brands and different grains of projectiles.

Try a 55 or 62gr with XBR powder and some BR primers in CCI. Seat the projectile to the inner limits of the mag and do NOT crimp. Also take the bipod off and try sandbagging the front. One last thing I would do is remove the A2 and install a brake after examining the crown of the barrel. One last extreme thing would be to run a adj. gas block to "tune" the rifle.

I have never had good luck with smk's. Hornady Amax shoot much better for me.

If it still doesnt shoot it might be why the other guy sold it.

 

[bluto77]

I was operating under the assumption that since the LaRue calls the rifle the OBR 5.56 that I should be shooting 5.56 instead of .223. The Larue website does say, "they are Wylde chambered", however, it does not say it is a .223 Wylde chamber. The Colt actually says it is a .223 Wylde chamber, but I've used .223 in it. I'll try some .223 in it too.

How does the 5.56 group out of the Colt?

It actually didn't group that well. I'll check the targets this evening, but I'm thinking somewhere in the 1.5" neighborhood. I never paid attention to it though because I was busy trying new shooting positions and such to improve accuracy. when I bought a few more boxes of the black hills match ammo I bought .223 and 5.56, and I started using the .223 for the Colt. Maybe the rifle just prefers .223.

 

[bluto77]

So far I've gotten the following ammo to try:
FGMM - 69gr SMK BTHP - .223
FGMM - 77gr SMK BTHP - .223
Hornady Match - 75gr BTHP- .223
Copper Creek - 60gr VMAX

Hopefully they all make it to Houston by Friday so I can try them all this weekend. The wife is taking the kids to somebody's beach house....it's "mom's only.." So that means dad gets an extended stay at the range on Saturday! I know the FGMM 69gr will be here by Friday, but not sure about the other stuff because it was ordered later in the day. All of it is going UPS Ground, which usually takes 2-3 days from any other major city in the US to Houston. Just depends how fast Palmetto State, Copper Creek, and Cabela's gets the stuff shipped. This damn rifle is either going to shoot, or I'm going to have fun trying to get it to! Or I'm going to have plenty of ammo on hand to use with the Colt if the LaRue has to be sold.

 

[GUNNER10]

while i am not a fan of Larue, there is a lot of good advice in here, i would second swapping lowers and scopes and see what happens. it cant hurt.

i have shot alot of different gas guns over the past five years, and while alot of the current gen 308 AR's or in your case, the OBR in 5.56/.223 are great rifles that would have no problem with DMR duties, and i really think that accuracy potential is greatly overstated.

i have yet to see any AR barrel profile under a bull(.936) barrel group consistantly under MOA, this is backed up by elfsters challenges, while there are many OBR owners(not you) who claim that there rifles shoot well under their test targets, its not a coincidence they never show up

with that being said, from all the guns that i have fired, i would say that your 1.6 MOA is on par with what i would expect from a rifle of simalar componets without developing a load specifically for that rifle.

hell, do you have a chamber length gauge? i would measure the chamber to see how for you are jumping those 77's, theres a reason alot of people single load longer rounds that get closer to the lands when trying to get the most out of their rifles

 

[bluto77]

with that being said, from all the guns that i have fired, i would say that your 1.6 MOA is on par with what i would expect from a rifle of simalar componets without developing a load specifically for that rifle.

This is actually in line with the way I was thinking. 1.6 MOA ain't bad for a gas gun. Everybody talks about shooting sub MOA like it's some kind of birth right or something, and just because some guy at the factory was able to squeeze .921 out of ONE group, out of who knows how many shots (my rifle), for the "test target" they feel like their rifle should be running at worst that number and always be under it. Hell, that could've taken the test shooter an hour to get. We don't really know. But once he has it on paper, then I'm sure the manufacturer is more willing to tell you something is wrong with YOU if you can't shoot the same group again.

That being said, the Colt CRP-18 is shooting a sub MOA average on 6 groups with no load development using the same brand ammo. So it can be done.

 

[bluto77]

I have an "extra" scope right now that I took in on a trade and is supposed to be sold. It's a Steiner 3-12x56. It came with a Badger one piece high mount (1.47"), but it touches the rail. I didn't think the mounts went much higher than that. I'm really trying to avoid moving the scope off the Colt since it's zeroed in. I know, I know...all I'd have to do is zero it in again, but I don't like to fix what ain't broke. Other ideas on that? I could just move the current mount so that it's positioned on one "piece" of the upper and just move the scope within the mount.

 

[BCP]

If it still doesnt shoot it might be why the other guy sold it.

I hate to say it but that is what I think too.

That rifle should shoot better. Either your scope/mount is buggered or it has a bad barrel.

 

[GUNNER10]

test targets are most likley fired out of a accuracy mount, meaning its locked into a heavy steal mount specifically designed for that firearm and its fired from a set position to get the groups your are seeing. considering your test target is about MOA, most likley fired in an accuracy mount, i would say that your hold is pretty damn good and the targets are what they are.

in regards to swapping your scope, your zero is not going to be that far off. take it off, shoot some groups, remount, your probally not going to be more than a minute or two off. something that can be refound with one round your next range session. i think it would be worth it just to try all options to see if you can get your OBR to shoot.

 

[elfster1234]

I think your only option short of buying a cantilver mount is swapping the colt scope set up...... Its not going to hurt. Just do it and it would only take a few rounds to re zero the colt.

I have an "extra" scope right now that I took in on a trade and is supposed to be sold. It's a Steiner 3-12x56. It came with a Badger one piece high mount (1.47"), but it touches the rail. I didn't think the mounts went much higher than that. I'm really trying to avoid moving the scope off the Colt since it's zeroed in. I know, I know...all I'd have to do is zero it in again, but I don't like to fix what ain't broke. Other ideas on that? I could just move the current mount so that it's positioned on one "piece" of the upper and just move the scope within the mount.

 

[bluto77]

I was thinking of keeping the Steiner for the LaRue or the Colt, so I'd need a 34mm cantilever mount anyway. Which one goes higher than the Badger 1 piece 1.47" hieght?

In the meantime, I'll swap the scope out on the Colt.

 

[USMAGator]

I was thinking of keeping the Steiner for the LaRue or the Colt, so I'd need a 34mm cantilever mount anyway. Which one goes higher than the Badger 1 piece 1.47" hieght?

In the meantime, I'll swap the scope out on the Colt.

For QD mounts, it looks like Bobro, ADM, and Larue all offer 34mm cantilever options. Bobro will place your centerline at 1.61" above the bore, Larue has a few options (1.44", 1.5", 1.93" on the high end), and my google fu is coming up short for the exact height of the ADM mounts, but I believe they're in the 1.5" height range as well. Bobro will probably be the best from what I've read, but I've never felt like dropping that much on a mount!

 

[Capt Academy]

I had a McMillian rifle that was sent with a test target that was 3/8's MOA. The load info was also supplied, Try as I may, the best I could get that rifle to shoot was 3/4 MOA with 190 SMK Federal Match Ammo. I could never get their load info to shoot, even though I duplicated it exactly. I spoke with McMillian and the guy told me they test their rifles out of a very expensive rest that does not let the rifle move at all. I ended up selling the rifle.

I know it's not a LaRue, but my Daniel Defense V-7 will shoot MOA or better with just about anything I put in it, to include 55grn FMJ's the only modification is the RRA trigger and Surefire MB. For the money, LaRue should shoot lights out!

My 2 cents.

 

[jrob300]

My 16" WOA 1:7 Wylde seems to like the slower velocities of factory ammo loaded for .223 chambers and more conservative hand loads using any of the heavies. If I shoot "5.56" ammo, normally loaded to higher velocities (read: higher pressures) or "push" velocities with my handloads, the groups open up.

There's been a lot of good advice given in this thread. Since you have two platforms.... one that shoots and one that doesn't... start swapping things to isolate the culprit: ammo, lower, scope, trigger, stock/cheekweld... etc., ad nauseum.

John

 

[elfster1234]

I guess the way I look at it being that the larue doesn't have an absolute true monolithic rail (as it still has an upper attached to the handguard with bolts, and then the 1pc rail is attached to the handguard with bolts) is the absolute thousands of an inch NON-REPEATABLE flex that might occur during a fired round shock wave might make the difference (being that the scope mount is not totally on the main upper rail above the bolt).... put it this way, it is not what I would prefer unless it was a monolithic rail upper... you can test it by swapping out the colt scope set up and either I'll be totally wrong or you will see a slight improvement, plus with the better ammo.... Who knows.

I just remember during a pistol training scenario the instructor said for about every 1/8th of an inch you're off your sights @ the barrel due to bad trigger pull (which is really hard to notice right before you take the shot) = damn near 8" off low and to the left of bullseye at 10yards. Even the smallest amount of indiscernible flex (which might not repeat itself) you might get by splitting up the scope mount over two different systems (handguard / upper) which is attached with bolts and such could be that indiscernible amount of .0010" flex x 100yards = off by maybe .5moa = makes a huge difference in accuracy in my book... Yes, this is all kinda theory, but it is kinda logical to me. I've just always been told to make sure the scope mount is damn near right above the bolt on the main rail unless it is a true monolithic rail upper... That mount needs to be 100% rock solid and it is just not the perfect set up IMO.

God, I hope I'm correct and this fixes your problems. It would be nice to see that bad boy shoot some nice groups.

Let just hope this makes the difference or I'll eat my words. LOL!

That is kind of the whole theory of my EOP (elevated optic platform) rock river arms varmint rifle. Supposedly it is trying to eliminate any possible scope mount issues by just fusing the entire mount right into the upper making 100% reliable while also producing proper cheek weld. Crossing my fingers for you buddy!

although the rail itself is one 1pc, the handguard is still attached to the upper with bolts, and then the 1pc rail is mounted to the handguard with bolts.... you still have two separate systems going on here (please, someone correct me if i'm wrong here as I've never owned a larue before).... It is not like you have a true monolithic rail.

This is what its all about... process of elimination and discussion. Double check with some guys on the hide with this issue i'm talking about before you spend good money on a new scope mount...

see if you have a friend with a QD cantilever scope mount / scope set up that he can easily pop off and test on your rig.. it wouldn't hurt.

 

[-Nick-]

I guess the way I look at it being that the larue doesn't have an absolute true monolithic rail (as it still has an upper attached to the handguard with bolts, and then the 1pc rail is attached to the handguard with bolts) is the absolute thousands of an inch NON-REPEATABLE flex that might occur during a fired round shock wave might make the difference (being that the scope mount is not totally on the main upper rail above the bolt).... put it this way, it is not what I would prefer unless it was a monolithic rail upper... you can test it by swapping out the colt scope set up and either I'll be totally wrong or you will see a slight improvement, plus with the better ammo.... Who knows.

I just remember during a pistol training scenario the instructor said for about every 1/8th of an inch you're off your sights @ the barrel due to bad trigger pull (which is really hard to notice right before you take the shot) = damn near 8" off low and to the left of bullseye at 10yards. Even the smallest amount of indiscernible flex (which might not repeat itself) you might get by splitting up the scope mount over two different systems (handguard / upper) which is attached with bolts and such could be that indiscernible amount of .0010" flex x 100yards = off by maybe .5moa = makes a huge difference in accuracy in my book... Yes, this is all kinda theory, but it is kinda logical to me. I've just always been told to make sure the scope mount is damn near right above the bolt on the main rail unless it is a true monolithic rail upper... That mount needs to be 100% rock solid and it is just not the perfect set up IMO.

God, I hope I'm correct and this fixes your problems. It would be nice to see that bad boy shoot some nice groups.

Let just hope this makes the difference or I'll eat my words. LOL!

That is kind of the whole theory of my EOP (elevated optic platform) rock river arms varmint rifle. Supposedly it is trying to eliminate any possible scope mount issues by just fusing the entire mount right into the upper making 100% reliable while also producing proper cheek weld. Crossing my fingers for you buddy!

That set-up doesn't do anything different that a cantilever mount doesn't already do except raise the height of your scope. It's kool-aid...