Ghost-Gun Company Raided by Federal Agents

[CrabsandFootball]

odd, you seem to be the only one with ANY legal knowledge...everyone else just "has it wrong"......where did you get your law degree again?

Its only 2 or 3 of you making poor arguments. Go back to beginning of thread where someone who works and is balls deep in the industry, and probably knows more than most of us about the legality, has said essential what I am saying.

The dozens /hundreds of others just reading are here for the lawls.

 

[hlee]

There's no doubt that the P80 build kit in question doesn't just walk a fine legal line, it runs straight up to it and pushes its nose through the proverbial fence, huffing and drooling in anticipation.

As we discourse on the matter, firstly I exhort everyone to refrain from using personal insults and slander in place of actual arguments, it is unbecoming of a gentleman or lady and is an affront to wisdom. For the debate over the prudence of background checks is valid, considering the practical reality of public opinion; the same is true when we discuss whether we ought to obey a law we consider to be injust or an affront to nature. Recall why Socrates refused to be broken out of jail.

Thr ATFs actions, Polymer80's actions and our discourse are part of that grand crucible where societal change takes place and philosophy evolves and advances, which has always been so essential to the pursuit of truth. We are having no different a conversation than what would have taken place thousands of years ago. So rejoice, because we're all taking part in a pretty awesome adventure on planet earth!

My take is this: David Borges and the Polymer80 team have done a great service in risking their security to challenge laws that are absolutely injust and injurious to the Constitution, and they deserve glory and veneration. For the philosophical underpinnings of gun control advanced by progressives over the last hundred years have been so utterly discredited, so completely vanquished as to leave do doubt in the mind of any wise person that the phrase 'shall not be infringed' could be anything but a most marvelous innovation. The prudence and foresight of the Framers with regards to the 2nd Amendment becomes more refulgent with each passing day.

First time on the internet? Stand back, it can get a little messy in here...

 

[CrabsandFootball]

Hoi

SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.....its written in there just like you have the right to talk nonsense.

How many unregistered machine guns, silencers,, SBRs, Artilery Pieces, Rockets, Tanks, Stealth Bombers and Nukes do you own?

Everyone on the internet is a 3%er until its time to do 3%er shit.

 

[Choid]

This stuff must be stopped if America is to survive as .. America

I agree. People like to go on about rulings on the fringes of the abortion debate or healthcare or whatever, but it is this stuff that really makes the soft tyranny that has grown to swallow the country. Here is a clip from Scotusblog, a good news, if left leaning site, about the state of affairs. Auer doctrine and Chevron deference are basically the same thing. My read is that there are five votes to stop it now, and the court declined to take up a case recently, before ACB was confirmed.

Justice Neil Gorsuch agreed with the decision to send Kisor’s case back to the Federal Circuit, but he – in a ruling joined in full by Justice Clarence Thomas and in part by Justices Samuel Alito and Brett Kavanaugh – was sharply critical of the court’s decision not to overrule Auer, which he described as “more a stay of execution than a pardon.” He made clear that he would “stop this business of making up excuses for judges to abdicate their job of interpreting the law and simply allow the court of appeals to afford Mr. Kisor its best independent judgment of the law’s meaning.”

Gorsuch characterized the Auer doctrine as “really little more than an accident” that “began as an unexplained aside in a decision about emergency price controls at the height of the Second World War.” The doctrine “sat on the shelf, little noticed, for years,” Gorsuch continued, and only recently came into being as “the reflexive rule of deference to regulatory agencies we know today.”

The doctrine, Gorsuch suggested, is deeply flawed. Among other things, it conflicts with the obligations of courts under the Administrative Procedure Act, which “instructs reviewing courts to ‘decide all relevant questions of law’ and ‘set aside agency action’” that does not comply with the law, and it “sits uneasily with the Constitution,” which gives courts the power to interpret the laws.

It is not at all clear that the principle of stare decisis applies to Auer deference, Gorsuch posited, because the court is not “dealing with a precedent that purported to settle the meaning of a single statute or regulation or resolve a particular case.” Instead, Gorsuch reasoned, the Auer doctrine “claims to do much more than that—to prescribe an interpretative method governing every future dispute over the meaning of every regulation.” But even if the principle of stare decisis does apply, Gorsuch continued, there are still good reasons to overrule Auer, because it is flawed and has not provided a workable standard.

 

[coraxdefence]

you still havent answered the question......what law was broken?

The Brady Act. ATF believes P80 violates the intent and spirit of this law with its build kits. Remember, the intent and spirit has always been what matters, not the dry letter.

Of course the law is abhorrent. Indeed, what is more wretched and contempt-worthy than handgun regulations! What ever has been so thoroughly useless and ineffective at achieving anything good at all? Wait, don't answer that, I'm having a pleasant evening so far lol.

The only thing we ought to be concerned with is how did these offensive ideas get into the ATFs head, and by extension the American Peoples' heads, in the first place? How have the principles of enlightenment philosophy been allowed to eroded to such a degree? And what can we do to reverse it?

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

In pretty much every other thread that has anything to do with LEO taking down someone or serving warrant on someone, etc etc is met with "Wait until full story is out, Let the investigation run its' course, You cannot make judgment based off few seconds of video, etc etc"..

Except when it is the ATF as the LEO, lolol...immediately those threads go direct to "Shall Not Be Infringed"....well I hate to break it to you....YOU have LONG LONG LONG been infringed upon.

Does anyone here know if P80 sold packages with "off the books" modifications? Maybe the ATF does.
IF you are basing assumptions off a half page WSJ article...well...maybe you should hold off judgement, maybe?

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[hlee]

Polymer 80 alleges that the Buy Build Shoot kit does not violate the law
The ATF alleges that it does.
A trial is where a decision that matters will be made. Right now, all we have are two opposing sides that both think they are on the "right side" of the law.

 

[Sgt47]

Ghost Gun site is still up and doing business. The last time .gov went after them, GG beat them in court, hopefully that will happen again with P80. Wearing out the ignore button.

 

[coraxdefence]

First time on the internet? Stand back, it can get a little messy in here...

Ha! I've been engrossed in ancient literature recently so you're not too far off. Lol.

Now behold the Pressure Washer of Wisdom

How many unregistered machine guns, silencers,, SBRs, Artilery Pieces, Rockets, Tanks, Stealth Bombers and Nukes do you own?

To be fair, the phrase 'keep and bear arms' has only ever referred to small arms capable of being maintained by the individual. At the time of its conception it did not apply to cannon, mortars, grenades etc.

 

[...]

Ha! I've been engrossed in ancient literature recently so you're not too far off. Lol.

Now behold the Pressure Washer of Wisdom



To be fair, the phrase 'keep and bear arms' has only ever referred to small arms capable of being maintained by the individual. At the time of its conception it did not apply to cannon, mortars, grenades etc.

even though many of the cannons in the revolutionary war were privately owned?....hell, private individuals owned whole battleships

 

[pmclaine]

Ghost Gun site is still up and doing business. The last time .gov went after them, GG beat them in court, hopefully that will happen again with P80. Wearing out the ignore button.

I think Ghost Gun was the peeps that challenged the definition of "firearm".

If I remember right the problem is "firearm" means "fire control, breech, barrel".

Defense was going to argue the lower did not constitute a firearm and if precedent was set with an acquittal it would lead to all sorts of issues.

I fear that the ATF redefines "firearm" to be something we dont want it to be..........

 

[pmclaine]

Ha! I've been engrossed in ancient literature recently so you're not too far off. Lol.

Now behold the Pressure Washer of Wisdom



To be fair, the phrase 'keep and bear arms' has only ever referred to small arms capable of being maintained by the individual. At the time of its conception it did not apply to cannon, mortars, grenades etc.

Wrong.

The cannon at Concord were private purchase.

Even through the Civil War cannon were often private purchase.

The Rough Riders were private purchase gifted Gatling Guns.

I dont think it was until 1934 that stipulations were made to categorize your means of defense.

United States vs Miller established "In Common" use and the court presented the idea that as the 2nd Amendment is intended to protect against tyrannical govt it should be expected that the citizen have access to the standard weapons of an Infantry Platoon equipped by the present govt.

Machine guns are not "banned" you just have to pay a tax and now that their manufacture is limited pay a shit ton of money. You can own artillery and grenades as AOW/Destructive Devices - again pay the tax and pay through the nose. I think you get up to .50 caliber bore diameter than bigger bore becomes NFA. Not banned just NFA and priced above the means of poors.

Miller would have been acquitted of the charge of modifying a shotgun - had he lived and had his lawyer introduced the Infantry riot gun as an issue platoon weapon.

TNT and blasting caps were hardware store items until the govt began slowly turning the heat up on the frogs in the pot -

Now here we are.

 

[Blutroop]

Ha! I've been engrossed in ancient literature recently so you're not too far off. Lol.

Now behold the Pressure Washer of Wisdom



To be fair, the phrase 'keep and bear arms' has only ever referred to small arms capable of being maintained by the individual. At the time of its conception it did not apply to cannon, mortars, grenades etc.

Naw... Bear arms means we have a right to sleeveless shirts. Ain’t y’all city lawyer Reading types supposed to be all literate and stuff?

 

[Blutroop]

even though many of the cannons in the revolutionary war were privately owned?....hell, private individuals owned whole battleships

Is this still available?

 

[...]

Naw... Bear arms means we have a right to sleeveless shirts. Ain’t y’all city lawyer Reading types supposed to be all literate and stuff?

 

[...]

Is this still available?

check with Sirhrmechanic, it wouldnt surprise me if he has a spare battle ship with a full compliment of guns hes restoring

 

[LawnMM]

The ATF alleges that it does.

I fear that the ATF redefines "firearm" to be something we dont want it to be.

It's not their job to interpret or clarify anything. Enforce as written. Judges interpret not useless fed agents.

 

[pmclaine]

It's not their job to interpret or clarify anything. Enforce as written. Judges interpret not useless fed agents.

ATF should not exist.

Congress makes law.

Congress has shirked their responsibility by creating all these unaccountable agencies to make CFR that have the power of law.

 

[Choid]

ATF should not exist.

Congress makes law.

Congress has shirked their responsibility by creating all these unaccountable agencies to make CFR that have the power of law.

Again, I addressed this above. As the law currently stands, agencies are well within their rights to do this shit. They shouldn't be, and this is a fight that can and should be won, but it needs to be done in the correct venue. I am confident that as long as the composition of the SC remains unchanged, it will happen within two years.

 

[AngryKoala]

SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.....its written in there just like you have the right to talk nonsense.

Its been infringed upon long before this raid. I wonder what the breaking point is?

 

[Jefe's Dope]

 

[CrabsandFootball]

Naw... Bear arms means we have a right to sleeveless shirts. Ain’t y’all city lawyer Reading types supposed to be all literate and stuff?

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

How many people here boycotted P80, Brownells and 80-lower.com last year when they infringed on the Constitutional rights of PA citizens when they voluntarily ceased shipping 80% to address in that State?

They violated Constitutional rights before the PA AG ever made his first argument of "banning" them. So much so that it was used as example of "why" PA should have stricter regulations on 80% stuff...because the actual manufacturers bent over so fast, without even being asked to.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[MtnCreek]

Hi,

How many people here boycotted P80, Brownells and 80-lower.com last year when they infringed on the Constitutional rights of PA citizens when they voluntarily ceased shipping 80% to address in that State?

They violated Constitutional rights before the PA AG ever made his first argument of "banning" them. So much so that it was used as example of "why" PA should have stricter regulations on 80% stuff...because the actual manufacturers bent over so fast, without even being asked to.

Sincerely,
Theis

But did they infringe on anyone's rights? It sounds like they refused service. If I called you up wanting a new rifle and you said fuckoff hillbilly and hung up, would that be an infringement on my right to keep and bear arms?

 

[darkfader]

I wasn’t even aware that happened in PA. I’ll admit I bought a few P80 frames just because I liked the grip better than the factory Glock.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

LOLOL IF I told you to kick rocks because your States AG might "come after" me when there was absolutely NOTHING on the law books...then shit yes I violated Constitutional rights, right or can only .Gov violate Constitutional rights?

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Choid]

Hi,

LOLOL IF I told you to kick rocks because your States AG might "come after" me then shit yes I violated Constitutional rights, right or can only .Gov violate Constitutional rights?

Sincerely,
Theis

Actually yes. Constitutional rights are, by definition, those we retain against government action. Or do you think I am violating your constitutional rights if I make topics out of bounds in my own house? Or say you can't bring a gun onto my property.

 

[...]

Hi,

LOLOL IF I told you to kick rocks because your States AG might "come after" me then shit yes I violated Constitutional rights, right or can only .Gov violate Constitutional rights?

Sincerely,
Theis

a company has no obligation to sell you anything...you have a right to keep and bear arms, you do not have a right to have P80 sell you something.

do i agree with their decision, no.
do i think it supports the community, no.

i can think its a shit move without thinking it infringing on our rights.


this is similar logic used by people who say "we have a constitutional right to health care"..

i would argue you have the right to obtain your own health care/insurance.

you do not have a right for someone to provide it to you.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

True enough.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[coraxdefence]

The cannon at Concord were private purchase.

Even through the Civil War cannon were often private purchase.

The Rough Riders were private purchase gifted Gatling Guns.

I was careful with my phrasing for this reason, referring to the conception that occurred in Europe leading to the British Bill of Rights. In this case it concerned individual small arms used for self defence. I concede though my assertion that 'engines of war' were never considered part of it in the US, your points are well taken, Cheers!

According to the federalist papers, the intent of 2A was not merely to provide a bulwark against tyranny through the militia, but that the militia would be the primary means of defending the state. We know what the Framers thought of a standing army. Therefore it would seem sensible that as practical facts of modernity have recruited the necessity of a standing military, the ability of the militia to maintain comparable engines of war must become even more critical!

This notion however simply doesn't pass the test of prudence. Thus we get the philosophy behind Miller, taking ground somewhere between arms strictly for self defense and personal McNukes. I think where we have arrived at now in the debate is the bleeding edge of 2A discussion. Fascinating stuff.

 

[squishee]

Crabs got really pissed and it wasnt even an AK 47 80%.
Maybe a shovel a 2x4 , a piece of pipe and some plumbers tape from lowes could be considered an ak 47 kit now.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

Why are kitchen knives not an issue in the USA?

Judge calls for kitchen knives to be blunted amid crime wave

There has been a huge increase in the number of fatal injuries

www.independent.co.uk

BBC NEWS | Health | Doctors' kitchen knives ban call

 

[Paul Anderson]

I'm thinking this is simply the start of a Biden administration's anti gun agenda. I've also learned the taxes he plans on charging gun owners will be an annual tax. An FFL holder I spoke with thinks the tax will be similar to property taxes. He said, and I agree, the Biden administration plans to make gun ownership so expensive, it will not be worth the expense it or affordable.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

• Stop “ghost guns.” One way people who cannot legally obtain a gun may gain access to a weapon is by assembling a one on their own, either by buying a kit of disassembled gun parts or 3D printing a working firearm. Biden will stop the proliferation of these so-called “ghost guns” by passing legislation requiring that purchasers of gun kits or 3D printing code pass a federal background check. Additionally, Biden will ensure that the authority for firearms exports stays with the State Department, and if needed, reverse a proposed rule by President Trump. This will ensure the State Department continues to block the code used to 3D print firearms from being made available on the Internet.
• End the online sale of firearms and ammunitions. Biden will enact legislation to prohibit all online sales of firearms, ammunition, kits, and gun parts.

Cant say we weren't warned, its on Bidens campaign website. Theyre moving fast.

 

[Sean the Nailer]

Wrong.

The cannon at Concord were private purchase.

Even through the Civil War cannon were often private purchase.

The Rough Riders were private purchase gifted Gatling Guns.

I dont think it was until 1934 that stipulations were made to categorize your means of defense.

United States vs Miller established "In Common" use and the court presented the idea that as the 2nd Amendment is intended to protect against tyrannical govt it should be expected that the citizen have access to the standard weapons of an Infantry Platoon equipped by the present govt.

Machine guns are not "banned" you just have to pay a tax and now that their manufacture is limited pay a shit ton of money. You can own artillery and grenades as AOW/Destructive Devices - again pay the tax and pay through the nose. I think you get up to .50 caliber bore diameter than bigger bore becomes NFA. Not banned just NFA and priced above the means of poors.

Miller would have been acquitted of the charge of modifying a shotgun - had he lived and had his lawyer introduced the Infantry riot gun as an issue platoon weapon.

TNT and blasting caps were hardware store items until the govt began slowly turning the heat up on the frogs in the pot -

Now here we are.

You're absolutely accurate and correct. And I HATE the fact of the matter. "Now Here We Are....."

Damning words, those!

 

[IrishWind]

Keep poking the ATF, and then act surprised when they stomp on you. People trying to get around the law in firearms reminds me a lot of the drug addicts/dealers when they have their new 'designer/synthetic' drug that is legal. Until the DEA/FDA/ect notices it and adds it to the list of illegal drugs. Prior to COVID there were places giving away AR lowers, or selling them so low that an NICS fee cost was the same as the lower.

You'll have to do better than "authorities warn".
Show me an article where my criteria happened.

R

Here you go.
Last paragraph.

Polymer80 Raided By ATF In An Apparent Move Against 'Ghost Guns'

BREAKING: Polymer80 Raided By ATF In An Apparent Move Against 'Ghost Guns' - Nevada-based firearm company Polymer80 was raided by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) yesterday in an apparent move to against so-called 'Ghost Guns'.

www.thefirearmblog.com

 

[pmclaine]

I was careful with my phrasing for this reason, referring to the conception that occurred in Europe leading to the British Bill of Rights. In this case it concerned individual small arms used for self defence. I concede though my assertion that 'engines of war' were never considered part of it in the US, your points are well taken, Cheers!

According to the federalist papers, the intent of 2A was not merely to provide a bulwark against tyranny through the militia, but that the militia would be the primary means of defending the state. We know what the Framers thought of a standing army. Therefore it would seem sensible that as practical facts of modernity have recruited the necessity of a standing military, the ability of the militia to maintain comparable engines of war must become even more critical!

This notion however simply doesn't pass the test of prudence. Thus we get the philosophy behind Miller, taking ground somewhere between arms strictly for self defense and personal McNukes. I think where we have arrived at now in the debate is the bleeding edge of 2A discussion. Fascinating stuff.

There is a reason we became "American" in favor of "British" in 1775.

You cling too tightly to your "subject" title of your homeland.

You are free to return if Freedom scares you.

 

[...]

Keep poking the ATF, and then act surprised when they stomp on you. People trying to get around the law in firearms reminds me a lot of the drug addicts/dealers when they have their new 'designer/synthetic' drug that is legal. Until the DEA/FDA/ect notices it and adds it to the list of illegal drugs. Prior to COVID there were places giving away AR lowers, or selling them so low that an NICS fee cost was the same as the lower.



Here you go.
Last paragraph.

Polymer80 Raided By ATF In An Apparent Move Against 'Ghost Guns'

BREAKING: Polymer80 Raided By ATF In An Apparent Move Against 'Ghost Guns' - Nevada-based firearm company Polymer80 was raided by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) yesterday in an apparent move to against so-called 'Ghost Guns'.

www.thefirearmblog.com

how far under the speed limit do we have to drive in order to not get a speeding ticket?

obeying the law is not "poking" anyone.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

The redcoats are coming...

 

[Daleteam6]

I get they're selling a kit which I guess by fedboy standards makes it a nono, but how is it different than buying an 80% on a site like (insert retailer here) as well as every other part to build an ar? Is it just that the feddies wants to make you do the legwork to add all the parts to your cart yourself or what? Call me ignorant but I honestly don't see much of a difference between a kit and a place that sells all the same parts just separately

 

[coraxdefence]

But did they infringe on anyone's rights? It sounds like they refused service. If I called you up wanting a new rifle and you said fuckoff hillbilly and hung up, would that be an infringement on my right to keep and bear arms?

There is an argument for this being illegal discrimination. In the case of the gay wedding cake, the baker's right to not have their conscience violated superseded the customer's right to not be discriminated against. In the case of 'no shoes no shirt no service', the businesses' viability depends on a level of decorum being upheld. These standards wouldn't really be met if the hillbilly were told to go eat ass, 'just because'.

In the PA 80% case, I estimate the waters would be muddied by the commerce crossing state lines and the threat of retaliation by the PA AG.

That said, in my opinion if those companies didn't violate constitutional rights then they certainly retreated from their duty... The same duty I earlier praised P80 for upholding with their build kits.

 

[Daleteam6]

Keep poking the ATF, and then act surprised when they stomp on you. People trying to get around the law in firearms reminds me a lot of the drug addicts/dealers when they have their new 'designer/synthetic' drug that is legal. Until the DEA/FDA/ect notices it and adds it to the list of illegal drugs. Prior to COVID there were places giving away AR lowers, or selling them so low that an NICS fee cost was the same as the lower.

No one is ever surprised when the atf does yet another over reach of power. People trying to work within the stupid constraints put on them by people trying to govern the ungovernable doesn't exactly remind me of druggies. All the atf does is fuck over law abiding citizens because people that break the law keep breaking the law. Making more laws and rules because people don't follow them does nothing because the people that dont follow said laws will just keep not following them. All it does is screw over people that actually follow the rules

 

[IrishWind]

how far under the speed limit do we have to drive in order to not get a speeding ticket?

obeying the law is not "poking" anyone.

So are you the guy who has a hand drawn plate on your car and argues you don't need a license to drive a car? And does 15 over the limit in a school or construction zone because you have 'rights'?

But glad you are bringing up 'just following the law'. I'll be sure to quote you in threads regarding braces or wearing a mask.

And a lot of laws wouldn't be needed if people stopped and thought about something other than their selfish needs.

 

[...]

So are you the guy who has a hand drawn plate on your car and argues you don't need a license to drive a car? And does 15 over the limit in a school or construction zone because you have 'rights'?

But glad you are bringing up 'just following the law'. I'll be sure to quote you in threads regarding braces or wearing a mask.

And a lot of laws wouldn't be needed if people stopped and thought about something other than their selfish needs.

you failed to answer the question.....how far under the speed limit do i need to drive to not get a ticket?

license plates are required by law
drivers license is required by law
your arguments are invalid.

what is the law pertaining to shipping non-firearms?


christ, you sound like the same retards who say "you shouldnt OC even though its legal because then theyll take away the right to OC"

dont do something, other wise theyll take away the right to do it?.....do they realize how stupid they sound?

me obeying the law is not "being selfish"....i dont know what sad happenstance brought you to believe otherwise.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

No one is ever surprised when the atf does yet another over reach of power. People trying to work within the stupid constraints put on them by people trying to govern the ungovernable doesn't exactly remind me of druggies. All the atf does is fuck over law abiding citizens because people that break the law keep breaking the law. Making more laws and rules because people don't follow them does nothing because the people that dont follow said laws will just keep not following them. All it does is screw over people that actually follow the rules

You have to keep this within context.

20 years ago the idea of Pistol Braces, 80% lowers with Jigs, Bianary Triggers ect would have been laughed at. Some smart people used the current law and were able to bring some products to market that I think we can all agree, shouldn't have been needed in the first place.

They used the ATF and governments own rules against them, which is to be commended. As a result they already were targets on the radar of these agencies.

To take the product and package it and advertise it as a way to get around the law was their mistake. It was a Bold move and got a Bold response, which was predictable. Anyone watching all this unfold over the years SAW IT COMING. They took it too far and we are ALL going to pay the price for it.

We don't have to agree with a law in order to admit there are predictable consequences.

This was a shitty business decision on the part of P80. It was not the hill to die on. They could have continued to produce thousands of P80 frames and got more guns into the hands of the public, but they pushed it too far. They fucked around and found out.

 

[...]

You have to keep this within context.

20 years ago the idea of Pistol Braces, 80% lowers with Jigs, Bianary Triggers ect would have been laughed at. Some smart people used the current law and were able to bring some products to market that I think we can all agree, shouldn't have been needed in the first place.

They used the ATF and governments own rules against them, which is to be commended. As a result they already were targets on the radar of these agencies.

To take the product and package it and advertise it as a way to get around the law was their mistake. It was a Bold move and got a Bold response, which was predictable. Anyone watching all this unfold over the years SAW IT COMING. They took it too far and we are ALL going to pay the price for it.

We don't have to agree with a law in order to admit there are predictable consequences.

This was a shitty business decision on the part of P80. It was not the hill to die on. They could have continued to produce thousands of P80 frames and got more guns into the hands of the public, but they pushed it too far. They fucked around and found out.

so its P80s fault the govt over-reached?

i suppose we should all go back to our bolt action .30-06 and SxS 12gauges and be thankful for the rights we have.......dont want to own an AR15, we dont want to push the bounds or taunt the ATF....

 

[CrabsandFootball]

you failed to answer the question.....how far under the speed limit do i need to drive to not get a ticket?

license plates are required by law
drivers license is required by law
your arguments are invalid.

what is the law pertaining to shipping non-firearms?


christ, you sound like the same retards who say "you shouldnt OC even though its legal because then theyll take away the right to OC"

dont do something, other wise theyll take away the right to do it?.....do they realize how stupid they sound?

me obeying the law is not "being selfish"....i dont know what sad happenstance brought you to believe otherwise.

Its not driving under the speed limit, its having a tank of unlicensed fuel in the back of your truck, piped into your gas tank and then A big sign on the side of the truck saying fuck fuel tax. It doesn't matter if one drop doesn't physically make it from the tank to the engine, it has all the elements of a crime in both intent and ability.

Reasonable Doubt is a thing. Reasonable Person is a thing.

Reasonable person - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

.

Even if you win in the courts you won't beat the ride or the defense costs. P80 is going to get eviscerated on not only the illegal firearms front, but also failure to pay FET on every frame sold.

They are done, unless they have a few tens of millions of cash laying around.

Feds didn't need to sieze anything other than records. They are accountants with badges. They wanted the Financial Records so they can figure out just how much they are owed, along with records of where these kits went so they can go after them.

They sold a product that was already a thin line, so much that they had to get ATF approval before they sold it on the market. Had they stayed within that lane, Or submitted the whole kit for review and got the OK, they wouldn't be in this mess. Play with fire and get burned. They should have known better.

 

[...]

Its not driving under the speed limit, its having a tank of unlicensed fuel in the back of your truck, piped into your gas tank and then A big sign on the side of the truck saying fuck fuel tax. It doesn't matter if one drop doesn't physically make it from the tank to the engine, it has all the elements of a crime in both intent and ability.

its not unlicensed fuel......its not fuel at all.

an 80% is not a firearm....this is unrefined crude oil

i really dont know how to make this point any clearer to you.

they are not breaking any laws.....so it doesnt matter how close to the fucking line they are.....they havent crossed it

 

[Choid]

There is no part of me that believes that this wouldn't have happened but for the kit issue. The ATF has been looking to do this, so they did it. Agencies need far less power. This is not a form of government that is meant to be run by unelected bureaucrats, but by those chosen by the people, for the job.

None of that is to say that these things don't "skirt the law." They do, but so what really. I am personally shocked that pistol braces have persisted this long, they won't much longer.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

We can sit here and debate what "should" be allowed and such based on The Constitution until our fingers turn blue but in the reality of the world...
2A has long been INFRINGED so attempting to discuss a topic based on that concept is futile...As wrong as it is; that ship has sailed before most of our generations were pulling triggers.

That being said...in the real world of P80 having to submit and get written permission to sale their products then you damn sure do NOT add shit to the approved product without seeking same written permission. And before someone says no permission needed due to 2A...show me your M249B that is not NFA stamped.

Have any of you read the submission papers from P80 to the ATF for approval to sale the 80% lowers? It is lined out to the T in regards to what is and is not part of it.
You add shit to it then you start the approval process over. You fail to start the approval process over although you deviated from what was approved...then this shit happens.

Sincerely,
Theis