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Ghost-Gun Company Raided by Federal Agents
- Thread starter Animal357
- Start date
They dont need to take them to render them useless. They're playing the long game. Look at all the avenues they attack. Cultural, social, economical, financial, regulatory, etc. They are systematically undermining the gun culture and american spirit and forming new cultural norms. Basically breeding gun ownership out of the masses. We're a dying breed. Reducing the 3% to 0% is the game.
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Is there a limit on how many 2020 multi-posters you can ignore? Also I would bet the real number of firearms in private hands, in the US is closer to a billion. Lots of geezers with safes full of guns that were bought when we were still free.
I argued gun ownership is a constitutional right not a privilege. Then she stated why do you need guns? Which i replied with, why do you need the right to vote, plenty of women survived before they had the right to vote. At that point I'm pretty sure I'll be hearing back from HR. Luckily? I got covid so that coupled with my vacation time I wont be back until next year.
Has nothing to do with being legally obtainable. It has to do with packaging and ADVERTISING as a complete kit to make a gun.
Thies is correct. They should have just continued to make P80 frame kits and let people buy their completion parts elsewhere.
Its inevitable these guns will be used in murders and by felons, giving the ATF a reason to drop the hammer. Playing this game of fine line is what will cost them.
The Tax bill alone on however many guns they sold (11% FET) will put them out of business unless they have a few million in cash squirreled away, plus litigation costs.
Not many people are fans of the ATF, but its foolish to pull their tail and not expect a reaction.
Their own policies will turn 3% into 30%
Who gives a fuck what's it's advertised as? Is it a firearm, in the legal sense, when the box leaves their office? Yes or No?
How many unregistered machine guns, SBR, suppressors and RPG's do you have.
How is the rebellion working out for you?
Lots talk a big game but the truth is, they are doing the same thing for the same reasons as everyone else. The difference is they are too arrogant to realize it.
The ATF apparently.
The same reason you can't sell a 3 hole lower, monocore baffles, Lightning Links or any other part that readily converts something into a machine gun.
Its like some of you have not been paying attention for the last 40 years. Look at the history of this industry and this was predictable. If you try to dance on the edge of legality in the gun world, you will get made an example of.
It doesn't mean we agree with it or condone it. Part of being an adult is evaluating risk and making calculated decisions. This was a poor decision from a risk standpoint with little to gain (small amount of money, which is less than if they would have sold ala carte) and they will pay for it (even if they prevail it will cost them millions in legal fees and tie the business up effectively destroying it..
How does that advance the 2A or get more guns into peoples hands? Had they just continued to sell frame kits in which the ATF ALREADY gave them approval, they would not be in this mess. There is an entire industry out there based around glock and P80 parts. The got greedy and now everyone will suffer.
My reccomendation is to buy up every P80 kit you can find and stash them away. They may never be available again.
Says the guy who joined 6 months ago.....
Sorry, I've already laid my life on the line for my country multiple times and have the cool guy medals to prove it.
What have you done recently......besides have almost 1200 posts in 6 months......
Wouldn't you like to know........
Doc
But the ATF has stated that 3 hole lowers, monocore baffles, and lightning links are all verboten and constitute "machine guns" and "supressors"...
the ATF has stated an 80% is NOT a firearm.....there is no legal definition for "80%".....its either a firearm and its regulated......or its not a firearm and is completely unregulated.
you are comparing apples and oranges.
this is more akin to the ATF stating a regular coat hanger is a machine gun because it can be bent into a lightning link.
So by many suppositions made in this thread the ATF is acting out of vindictiveness
not by the letter of the law.
The tax charge is purely based on the charge that they were indeed selling guns not
parts.
An old quote "show me the man and I'll show you the crime".
R
not by the letter of the law.
The tax charge is purely based on the charge that they were indeed selling guns not
parts.
An old quote "show me the man and I'll show you the crime".
R
That is not the issue. The ATF makes dozens if not hundreds of determinations each year. Its not like everything that has ever been invented, has already been invented.
There are tons of products that were made and after being on the market for a while ATF declared them a NOGO. Adkins accelerator was a great example.
They were not selling just a P80 Frame. They were selling an entire kit and ADVERTISING it as a complete gun kit to avoid FET/Background/FFL.
Just the P80 Frame alone was already considered good to go. Packaging everything and advertising it is what we call constructive intent.
I don't know why this is hard to understand. ANYONE who has been paying attention to this industry over the years saw this coming.
Selling a coat hanger is one thing. Bending it to shape and advertising it as a way to make your AR15 go auto is another. That is the difference.
Its inevitable that a hammer bought at home depot could also be used in a murder.....should they stop selling hammers now....
Doc
My how times have changed.
I bought guns before I could vote!
And then given a license to kill before I was 21
!
Now people, that I would die for, bitch if I want only 80%ers!
Sometimes I feel like I'm the only adult in the room.
And sometimes I know l am!
I bought guns before I could vote!
And then given a license to kill before I was 21
!Now people, that I would die for, bitch if I want only 80%ers!
Sometimes I feel like I'm the only adult in the room.
And sometimes I know l am!
The Atf can’t actually make this illegal. They are just abusing arbitrary power and using fear and intimidation to scare people.
All y’all should read up on federal definitions and study a ar lower..
Who knows what their intentions were. They have probably been getting hammered by congress to do something due to P80 guns recovered as murder weapons and used in crimes.
The Feds aren't local cops. By the time they execute a search warrant, the case is all but locked up. They do not move in until they are assured they have everything they need to assure a conviction or enough pressure for a plea. They will sit on someone for years collecting evidence and building a case. Local LE can't afford to do this, the feds will spend millions to recover thousands.
In Federal Criminal Court 90% of cases are plead out. 8% are Dismissed and 2% go to Trial.
They already had everything they needed to bury P80 before they even executed the search warrant. That was just icing on the cake and their victory dance.
By your own statement you are trying to blame the tool used instead of the perp.
The percentage of deaths caused by 80% receivers is a statistical zero.
Over reach by alphabeti is the crux.
The above is the modus operandi of an out of control bureaucracy.
I would submit that the ATF's own operations I.E. fast And furious has resulted in more deaths
Than 80 % lowers.
R
Pretty much.
I agree with you, I love what the 80% products have done for the market. Less government oversight and overreach, the better.
From both a tactical and strategic viewpoint you need to keep the mission in perspective. Making a poor decision based on an abysmal risk/reward profile will ultimately harm the 2A movement more than it helps. If they really care about maximizing their impact, they would do what they need to keep producing, selling and getting as many ghost gun frames into the hands of patriotic Americans as possible.
History is littered with people who stand up to government due to injustices, doesn't change the fact that the government destroys them and makes an example of them. The first ones through the breach always get bloodied. The important thing however, is if there isn't a wave behind you, its just martyrdom. You will be hung out to dry and your movement will die on the vine. If you are going to sacrifice yourself, atleast make it count.
"constructive intent" to build something completely legal?
the ATF has the authority (somehow) to regulate interstate commerce of firearms.
an 80% is not a firearm
a slide is not a firearm
a barrel is not a firearm
a parts kit is not a firearm
all of those parts together in a box are not a firearm.
ergo, no laws were broken, and the ATF has no reason to be involved.
im going to put this in a context you simpletons can understand.
if you are doing 55mph.....and the speed limit is 55mph.....and a cop pulled you over for "almost speeding".....would you just accept and pay the ticket?
i mean, you are "dancing on the edge" of the law.....you are trying to "skirt" the speeding laws.
how far under the speed limit do you have to drive?
Said nothing of the sort, so stop putting words in peoples mouths.
The percentage does not matter. What percentage of bumpstocks were used in murders? Well when 57 Americans get murdered in one day and the Media blames the tool, What you THINK and what actually happens are not the same thing. We live in a world where we need to be cognizant of the realities and operate in a way that doesn't hinder the overall goal.
People complain about overreach yet comply with various examples hundreds if not thousands of times a day. Drivers license, Income tax, propperty tax, EPA regs, Products they can't buy. ones they can, Sending their kids to school, following traffic laws or whatever. We live in a society with laws and many people consider lots of them to be overreach. You are literately complaining about something you are doing everyday.
F&F has nothing to do with this. Its irrelevant and you are trying to muddy the waters due to inability to make a sound argument.
So you have established that government does not always operate in the best interest of citizenry. Welcome to 5000 years ago.
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We have these things called laws. Agree with them or not, but firearms are a regulated item.
People don't think legal definitions be what they be, but they do.
what law was broken?....what "firearms"?.....
might want to contact devry and get a refund on your law degree
Just to give you an idea how firearms (mostly all are pistols) move throughout the criminal community.
Guy A has a gun he wants to sell. He dials up his friend intermediary A that he has a piece up for sale. This happens fresh after he has used in a shooting. Intermediary A either contacts people he knows who are currently looking for a gun, or intermediary B. Guy B ends up buying the handgun through the intermediary and uses it to commit his crime, and the cycle is repeated.
Intermediarys are little more than guys known in the community to be able to find guns fast. The new guns usually enter the market either via theft or a straw purchase of someone who then typically reported it stolen. Those are worth more, a used Glock will be around $200.
The movies and media show the criminal shooting someone then they throw the gun in the river, but usually a gun has several shootings on it before it is ditched like that in an emergency situation, like about to be arrested, or someone is arrested with it.
In short the infringements on we the people only serve as workplace safety laws for murders, rapists, and other criminals.
You should tell that to the team of Lawyers working for the US Attorney's office and ATF who locked this case up before they did their publicity stunt (AKA raid).
There's no doubt that the P80 build kit in question doesn't just walk a fine legal line, it runs straight up to it and pushes its nose through the proverbial fence, huffing and drooling in anticipation.
As we discourse on the matter, firstly I exhort everyone to refrain from using personal insults and slander in place of actual arguments, it is unbecoming of a gentleman or lady and is an affront to wisdom. For the debate over the prudence of background checks is valid, considering the practical reality of public opinion; the same is true when we discuss whether we ought to obey a law we consider to be injust or an affront to nature. Recall why Socrates refused to be broken out of jail.
Thr ATFs actions, Polymer80's actions and our discourse are part of that grand crucible where societal change takes place and philosophy evolves and advances, which has always been so essential to the pursuit of truth. We are having no different a conversation than what would have taken place thousands of years ago. So rejoice, because we're all taking part in a pretty awesome adventure on planet earth!
My take is this: David Borges and the Polymer80 team have done a great service in risking their security to challenge laws that are absolutely injust and injurious to the Constitution, and they deserve glory and veneration. For the philosophical underpinnings of gun control advanced by progressives over the last hundred years have been so utterly discredited, so completely vanquished as to leave do doubt in the mind of any wise person that the phrase 'shall not be infringed' could be anything but a most marvelous innovation. The prudence and foresight of the Framers with regards to the 2nd Amendment becomes more refulgent with each passing day.
As we discourse on the matter, firstly I exhort everyone to refrain from using personal insults and slander in place of actual arguments, it is unbecoming of a gentleman or lady and is an affront to wisdom. For the debate over the prudence of background checks is valid, considering the practical reality of public opinion; the same is true when we discuss whether we ought to obey a law we consider to be injust or an affront to nature. Recall why Socrates refused to be broken out of jail.
Thr ATFs actions, Polymer80's actions and our discourse are part of that grand crucible where societal change takes place and philosophy evolves and advances, which has always been so essential to the pursuit of truth. We are having no different a conversation than what would have taken place thousands of years ago. So rejoice, because we're all taking part in a pretty awesome adventure on planet earth!
My take is this: David Borges and the Polymer80 team have done a great service in risking their security to challenge laws that are absolutely injust and injurious to the Constitution, and they deserve glory and veneration. For the philosophical underpinnings of gun control advanced by progressives over the last hundred years have been so utterly discredited, so completely vanquished as to leave do doubt in the mind of any wise person that the phrase 'shall not be infringed' could be anything but a most marvelous innovation. The prudence and foresight of the Framers with regards to the 2nd Amendment becomes more refulgent with each passing day.
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so if the ATF is acting, it must be doing so lawfully?......how exactly does anyone have a case "locked up" before evidence can be collected and a judge has ruled on it?
how cucked are you?
You stated they were under pressure of congress to do something about 80P.
Those actions are a result of statistics being fed to congress to find a solution for.
F&F has everything to do with this argument.
It involves illegal gun usage to commit crimes i.e. "Deaths caused by illegal 80P".
As the ATF is part of that government you'd think you'd understand what I'm proposing.
Btw show me where i could vote on all those regulations you've mentioned, I'll wait.
R
You need to go back and read everything posted, stop and think for a second and absorb it.
The fact you do not even understand how the Federal Government works makes it impossible to have an intelligent conversation with you.
No, go back and read. "Who knows what their intentions were. They have probably..."
Your whole post started with bad information.
Try again.
you still havent answered the question......what law was broken?....and what "firearms"?......dont sit here and gaslight me by making me think i dont understand the topic.
more importantly....how far under the speed limit do we have to drive to not get a speeding ticket?
if you cant answer any of those....dont sit here and make accusations that i dont understand whats going on.
Chevron deference says it is. Hopefully with ACB on the court Chevron deference will be killed for good.
We have this thing called a constitution.. all the arbitrary authority in the world can’t change the fact that we the people are getting fed up with feds..
If you really want to talk constructive intent let’s talk of what the gov keeps “constructing”. Their intent is clearer day by day.
When someone starts a post with " Who knows what their intentions were. " its pretty clear that we don't know what the ultimate reason was. We can make informed guess. No one here is on the Legal team and knows for certain.
Words have meaning. There is a difference between a declarative statement and one that poses a question.
Sorry I don't have the time to teach you how the English language works.
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The problem is that with current jurisprudence they can. Chevron deference is the current "law of the land." It basically says that if a statute is in any way hard to understand (according to the agency) then the agency is within its rights to "clarify" the rule. It is very much a live ball in the SC right now, though one that doesn't get so much play. Obviously the left loves the concept, because it is the linchpin of the rule of the administrative agencies, or to use today's lingo, the rule of the deep state. Roberts caved and saved it a year or two ago, of course, but there is no way that ACB likes it, it goes against everything she stands for. Killing Chevron deference would be better for the country than almost any possible ruling in the SC these days. It undergirds everything the executive tries to do without congress, or against the will of congress.
One does not have to commit a crime for a criminal act to take place in the eyes of the law. Intent and ability are the requirements.
It is obtuse to not realize based on history and the climate we live in, that packaging and advertising a product that gets around a law that is taken pretty seriously in this country would be a target.
Complain or bitch all you want, its not going to change anything.
Based on your inability to process the written word, at least we are consistent.
Last word.
BTw coming from a man who's entire argument was based upon supposition.
R
Basing prosecution on any "intent" is a slippery slope.......
If you drive your vehicle to the liquor store and purchase alcohol........there is possible intent to drive drunk.
If you have a temper and purchase a baseball bat at the local sporting goods store.......there is possible intent to beat your wife to death.
If you have a mill and purchase a chunk of material......there is possible intent to make a receiver/firearm.
They need to stop looking at "intent" and look at enforcement of laws that are broken.
The ATF is clearly a broken system......anyone with an FFL07 will most likely agree. I have asked three different agents multiple questions about firearm classification and received three different answers......or "well....um.....it depends". This is why I have email chain documentation......and there are plenty of times in the file with a special note of "ATF Agent X overrules previous ATF Agent X directive". It's pretty sad actually.....but I have it in type from the agents involved so hopefully it will suffice if it is ever in question.
Last time I checked......there are ZERO others laws/regulations that are "well.....um....it depends"........
For me...........I need to stay in business, so I just roll with the punches, avoid questionable situations, and DOCUMENT DOCUMENT DOCUMENT.
Maybe I'm just a pussy......but it currently pays the bills.
Ern
If you drive your vehicle to the liquor store and purchase alcohol........there is possible intent to drive drunk.
If you have a temper and purchase a baseball bat at the local sporting goods store.......there is possible intent to beat your wife to death.
If you have a mill and purchase a chunk of material......there is possible intent to make a receiver/firearm.
They need to stop looking at "intent" and look at enforcement of laws that are broken.
The ATF is clearly a broken system......anyone with an FFL07 will most likely agree. I have asked three different agents multiple questions about firearm classification and received three different answers......or "well....um.....it depends". This is why I have email chain documentation......and there are plenty of times in the file with a special note of "ATF Agent X overrules previous ATF Agent X directive". It's pretty sad actually.....but I have it in type from the agents involved so hopefully it will suffice if it is ever in question.
Last time I checked......there are ZERO others laws/regulations that are "well.....um....it depends"........
For me...........I need to stay in business, so I just roll with the punches, avoid questionable situations, and DOCUMENT DOCUMENT DOCUMENT.
Maybe I'm just a pussy......but it currently pays the bills.
Ern
yeah actually it does.
they cannot charge you with murder because you have a gun and want someone dead.
they can charge you with "conspiracy to commit murder" .....which is its self a crime....
in this case, "conspiracy to sell firearms"...im guessing would be the crime......but that comes down to the question...what "firearms"...
you cannot take a box of non-firearms, put them in a box, and all of a sudden make a firearm.....thats not how the law works.
i dont care how bad you think the optics are.....no crime has occurred.
The argument was not based on the supposition. Someone asked what the intent was. No one outside of those who are charging the crimes, will likely eevr know.
The rest of the post in declarative and is a fact.
This is like arguing with a virgin about how to have sex. You don't have even a basic understanding of the subject to have a conversation about it. Might as well be speaking Klingon.
Arguing about things you don't understand is a what most would consider unwise.
You are actually correct.
What is the penalty for conspiracy to commit murder?
Arguing about it is semantics when both will result in you being locked up for similar if not identical sentencing.
A crime is still commited either way, according to our legal system and extensive case law supporting it.
SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.....its written in there just like you have the right to talk nonsense.
yes but they cannot charge you with conspiracy to sell firearms.......IF THERE ARE NO FIREARMS.....
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