Gonna build me an SPR. Which upper will be best?

[Bakwa]

Not looking for a MK12 clone. I'm looking for performance!
After some poking around the internet, I think I've settled on these options.

Get Compass Lake Engineering to throw one of their Krieger or Bartein SPR barrels into an upper [mine or theirs].
Roll the dice with one of PRI's 3 gun upper specials.
Trust the hype on BCM's MK12 clone upper with SS410 barrel.
Track down [or wait on another batch that may never come of] a KAC LPR upper.
Or go old school hype and test my luck with a Larue something or other.

Seriously looking for something in 5.56 that has a good chance of producing .5-.75MOA with the right factory ammo and be handy enough for field use. I've never had an AR that shot better than barley under 1 minute, so I think it's about time I dive in.

 

[The DFC]

As much as I like BCM I've never read much-if anything-about how accurate they are. The opposite is true for CLE-for me at least-and that's what I'd go personally.

 

[Lunchbox27]

Craddock Precision makes damn fine uppers, as well. Just another name in the hat, if you're looking for performance.

Craddock Precision

craddockprecision.com

 

[Mwalex]

Why not build your own? It is pretty easy to build a very good upper.

 

[stilesg57]

Echoing above, definitely build your own or better yet have a good local gunsmith build it for you with an eye towards accuracy. I’ve had good luck with Odin and Ballistic Advantage barrels, including Odins in 18”. I run a Faxon Gunner in 18” for my 3gun rifle and it’s great but too light for sustained MOA or better accuracy.

Sub-MOA in an AR isn’t easy but it doesn’t require fairy dust either. This is from a 20” Ballistic Advantage Premium fluted that ran me under $250 shipped on sale. It’s target grade but not alpha by any means. Second trip to the range, about 80 rounds though it before I started sighting in the scope on the upper right. Five more rounds in the middle right at MOA, then a nice sub MOA group in the upper right. I’ll take a penny at 100yds out of a $250 barrel any day. Obviously a great trigger helps.

 

[MontanaMan]

Seriously looking for something in 5.56 that has a good chance of producing .5-.75MOA with the right factory ammo and be handy enough for field use. I've never had an AR that shot better than barley under 1 minute, so I think it's about time I dive in.

How many shots in a group are you expecting for that "MOA" rifle to shoot & still hold "MOA"?

3-shot groups, or really even 5, does not qualify to make the rifle genuinely "MOA", IMO. Just depends on what your real expectations are as a gun that shoots a 3-shot "MOA" group may surely not be the same gun as one that can shoot 10-shot "MOA" groups. Just sayin'.

The trouble with 3 shot groups.

Anything from CLE is hard to beat, ditto from Craddock or WOA as well.

MM

 

[Strykervet]

Have you looked at "recce" rifles? Also called "sniper M4". Supposedly navy had these made because the Mk12 wasn't cutting it for 'em for a few reasons. It's 16", uses a Lilja bbl., 1/8, Wylde chamber, and the rest of the rifle is pretty much up to the user, about the only thing they have in common is the Lilja barrel.

Here's mine with a Saker. It's a subMOA rifle but I haven't had much time to really do much with it, so I suspect it'll do even better when I get serious with it. Pretty much any stock, rail or scope goes on these and they've been pictured with 'em all (though this one does have a Mk12 optic). Just an option/idea. And it may cost less to make a high end one of these, depending.

 

[Mwalex]

Have you looked at "recce" rifles? Also called "sniper M4". Supposedly navy had these made because the Mk12 wasn't cutting it for 'em for a few reasons. It's 16", uses a Lilja bbl., 1/8, Wylde chamber, and the rest of the rifle is pretty much up to the user, about the only thing they have in common is the Lilja barrel.

Here's mine with a Saker. It's a subMOA rifle but I haven't had much time to really do much with it, so I suspect it'll do even better when I get serious with it. Pretty much any stock, rail or scope goes on these and they've been pictured with 'em all (though this one does have a Mk12 optic). Just an option/idea. And it may cost less to make a high end one of these, depending.

View attachment 7074117

That barrel and chamber is an excellent combination for starting a build. Lilja offers a few different contours for different weights BUT that barrel will not be cheap but you will get what you pay for.

 

[021411]

I have a Colt 6920 that I swapped barrels. Put in a Rainier Arms Ultramatch 16” barrel and it does sub half groups all day long with Magtech 77gr OTM. No fancy upper or anything. Everything besides the trigger, rail, gas block, and brake are stock.

 

[The DFC]

I have a Colt 6920 that I swapped barrels. Put in a Rainier Arms Ultramatch 16” barrel and it does sub half groups all day long with Magtech 77gr OTM. No fancy upper or anything. Everything besides the trigger, rail, gas block, and brake are stock.

Sub 1/2 MOA groups all day is amazing.

 

[stilesg57]

I have a Colt 6920 that I swapped barrels. Put in a Rainier Arms Ultramatch 16” barrel and it does sub half groups all day long with Magtech 77gr OTM. No fancy upper or anything. Everything besides the trigger, rail, gas block, and brake are stock.

Bingo: proof it doesn’t take magic to get an AR consistently sub-MOA. These aren’t AKs we’re talking about ?

I have a buddy in OR with a Rainier ultramatch barrel on a build that I’ve got some time behind and yes that dog hunts. Good 2nd hand experience with WOA as well. Haven’t seen a CLE in the wild myself but the interwebs sure love ‘em.

 

[Bakwa]

As much as I like BCM I've never read much-if anything-about how accurate they are. The opposite is true for CLE-for me at least-and that's what I'd go personally.

Good point. I saw one or two reviews of it that claimed 3/4" 100yds 5+ shot groups. But no one knows who makes their barrels. I guess I was hoping to hear more first hand experience here on them.

 

[Bakwa]

How many shots in a group are you expecting for that "MOA" rifle to shoot & still hold "MOA"?

3-shot groups, or really even 5, does not qualify to make the rifle genuinely "MOA", IMO. Just depends on what your real expectations are as a gun that shoots a 3-shot "MOA" group may surely not be the same gun as one that can shoot 10-shot "MOA" groups. Just sayin'.

The trouble with 3 shot groups.

Anything from CLE is hard to beat, ditto from Craddock or WOA as well.

MM

Great question!
For me personally, I like 5 shot groups. I consider something a 1 MOA rifle if it will shoot 5 shot groups all day within 1 minute at 100/200/300m. Any further out the wind is too much of a variable and I begin to trust myself to no make mistakes less.

 

[Bakwa]

I'm looking for something that is leaning into .5 minute accuracy. I already have a few rifles with barrels that will shot sub MOA. But I'm looking for something I can bet on producing noticeably better groups if I fill up a target with 5 hole clusters vs one of my existing rifles. If I build it myself, then I'll be easily spending $1000+ anyway. I might as well drop another $100-$200 into a group like CLE so I have someone to complain to if it doesn't preform like it's expected to. ;-)

 

[kRcu]

Vltor MUR is my go-to for precision uppers.

 

[MOUNTIC]

Centurion arms Mk12 barrel. They are crane spec Douglas blank barrels and centurion was the only civilian source of true Mk12 barrels for the longest time. Not sure if anyone else is doing that but Monty at centurion at this point. Best group was a 17 consecutive round group under an inch. Think it was .83 or something. Have plenty of .3 inch 5 round groups with black hills and other surplus mk262 like Magtech/CBC ammo. Not anyone better to work with then Monty and Corrie over at centurion. I would at least give them a look. Plenty of other great barrels out there too. Some of the Noveske stainless barrels flat out shot when John was still around. Post John, I haven't had a good of luck with them.

 

[TheGerman]

You lost me at not looking for a Mk12

 

[Bakwa]

Have you looked at "recce" rifles? Also called "sniper M4". Supposedly navy had these made because the Mk12 wasn't cutting it for 'em for a few reasons. It's 16", uses a Lilja bbl., 1/8, Wylde chamber, and the rest of the rifle is pretty much up to the user, about the only thing they have in common is the Lilja barrel.

Here's mine with a Saker. It's a subMOA rifle but I haven't had much time to really do much with it, so I suspect it'll do even better when I get serious with it. Pretty much any stock, rail or scope goes on these and they've been pictured with 'em all (though this one does have a Mk12 optic). Just an option/idea. And it may cost less to make a high end one of these, depending.

View attachment 7074117

Yes. I love the Recce concept. I have a recce setup that's running a 14.5" Colt SOCOM barrel. It produces .9"-1.25" groups with 77gr IMI and 1.25"-1.75" with 55gr Fiocchi all day. Not the most accurate, but it's fairly handy, and has definite utility as a grab-and-go general purpose rifle.. I ran it in a run and gun event two months ago and it worked out pretty well.



This SPR build that I'm trying to do is intended to be a little more purpose specific. I'm basically looking for a designated short to mid range semi auto sniper platform. 18" just seems like the way to go because I don't have an 18" rifle. That and I'm in the process of backing off from feeling inclined to try and build a Marine SAM-R clone, so I'm already 2" shorter than I was going to be.

 

[Bakwa]

You lost me at not looking for a Mk12

LOL!
I'm all for cool clones. But at this point in my life, I'm more into purpose built tools. I like taking what has been learned by fielding tools in real environments, and if given the option, making advancements based on what has been learned. I know that MK12's are a little heavy, and that there are certainly more accurate barrels out there. I intend to use a lighter weight mlok HG, better quality barrel, and wylde/CLE chamber. In the end I'll hopefully have something that's lighter, less bulky, and more accurate than a true MK12.
Cheers

 

[Primus]

Just buy a LPR factory rifle. By the time you get good parts together you will already be in the same ballpark and it will most likely not shoot as well and will sure as shit not be as reliable/durable.

 

[Primus]

Centurion arms Mk12 barrel. They are crane spec Douglas blank barrels and centurion was the only civilian source of true Mk12 barrels for the longest time. Not sure if anyone else is doing that but Monty at centurion at this point. Best group was a 17 consecutive round group under an inch. Think it was .83 or something. Have plenty of .3 inch 5 round groups with black hills and other surplus mk262 like Magtech/CBC ammo. Not anyone better to work with then Monty and Corrie over at centurion. I would at least give them a look. Plenty of other great barrels out there too. Some of the Noveske stainless barrels flat out shot when John was still around. Post John, I haven't had a good of luck with them.

You can buy a factory PRI MK12Mod0 with the douglas for around $1650. The ONLY thing it needs is a trigger.

 

[36trap]

Centurion Arms has a few configurations on their Mk12 and RECCE uppers. You can go full clone or modernize it. Either way you're getting one of the very best barrels for what you're trying to accomplish..

 

[Potss]

No Question: Compass Lake, Craddock Precision, or MSTN. The rest are nice, but those are the best.

You can certainly build your own that will equal those for cheaper though if you want.

 

[MontanaMan]

Just buy a LPR factory rifle. By the time you get good parts together you will already be in the same ballpark and it will most likely not shoot as well and will sure as shit not be as reliable/durable.

There's a lot of truth in that, other than just the pleasure of configuring it specifically how you may like it.

I have a KAC LPR MOD 1 with the (heavier) Krieger barrel & it's a great shooter & very smooth......................never had a single hiccup with it either, not a single one.

But that's true of the other 2 KAC's that I have as well...............they just run & are not very ammo sensitive either.

MM

 

[Boon20]

This isnt a precision rifle or mabey i just got lucky but my daniel defence m4v7 shoots .5 moa with american eagle 55g 5.56 so they are out there

 

[Potss]

Let's see that 6x5 for your 1/2moa DD.....

 

[MontanaMan]

Let's see that 6x5 for your 1/2moa DD.....

Or any other 1/2 MOA claims as well; 3 shot groups need not apply.

MM

 

[021411]

Or any other 1/2 MOA claims as well; 3 shot groups need not apply.

MM

Number 5 was the POA. The two holes around it were single shots. I was BS’ing around.
You can also see the other small groups around in different clusters as I was adjusting zero.
Edited to add: Rainier Ultramatch 16” Shilen blank w/ Ratchet rifling and Magtech 77gr OTM. Colt BCG

 

[MontanaMan]

Number 5 was the POA. The two holes around it were single shots. I was BS’ing around.
You can also see the other small groups around in different clusters.

That's nice..............now put 2-10 shots groups together or half a dozen 5 shot groups together now.

Go up to an earlier post above & read the article by MOLON on groups & capability...............it's an interesting article.

MM

 

[021411]

I’ll try for consecutive groups when I get a chance. The private range I go to is literally under water right now.
But the capability is there and the only thing special is the barrel.

 

[USMC_JA]

In December, I went through the same mental exercise when I decided I needed an 18 inch SPR. Ultimately, I decided to let CLE "build" me an upper. I collected:

- a Vltor MUR upper;
- SLR AGB;
- Geissele Mk16 13.5 inch rail;
- Noveske Gen III lower;
- Geissele HSNM trigger;
- Vltor A5 RE;
- Magpul STR;
- Dead Air flash suppressor (for my Sandman); and
- WOA LPK.

I then sent CLE the Vltor upper, SLR AGB, and barrel nut for the rail. I asked them to spin me up a Bartlein 17.7 SPR profile, give it intermediate gas, a CLE chamber, and then to duracoat it black. Then, they were kind enough to true the face of the Vltor, install the barrel (and make sure I had a tight fit) and tighten the barrel nut. As they machined the barrel, the smith called me because he did not like the fit and made some recommendations. I, of course, listened and let Paul do his thing.

Then CLE mailed it all back to me and I completed the build. I have not shot the rifle yet as I just got it this week. However, I am MORE than thrilled with the CLE experience and won't hesitate for a second to go back to them for more.

 

[stilesg57]

^^^ That’s a great way to do it if you don’t have/know a good local smith. Or even if you do.

No reason not to build it / have it built. Especially when you’re talking about quality, expensive components.

 

[Bakwa]

In December, I went through the same mental exercise when I decided I needed an 18 inch SPR. Ultimately, I decided to let CLE "build" me an upper. I collected:

- a Vltor MUR upper;
- SLR AGB;
- Geissele Mk16 13.5 inch rail;
- Noveske Gen III lower;
- Geissele HSNM trigger;
- Vltor A5 RE;
- Magpul STR;
- Dead Air flash suppressor (for my Sandman); and
- WOA LPK.

I then sent CLE the Vltor upper, SLR AGB, and barrel nut for the rail. I asked them to spin me up a Bartlein 17.7 SPR profile, give it intermediate gas, a CLE chamber, and then to duracoat it black. Then, they were kind enough to true the face of the Vltor, install the barrel (and make sure I had a tight fit) and tighten the barrel nut. As they machined the barrel, the smith called me because he did not like the fit and made some recommendations. I, of course, listened and let Paul do his thing.

Then CLE mailed it all back to me and I completed the build. I have not shot the rifle yet as I just got it this week. However, I am MORE than thrilled with the CLE experience and won't hesitate for a second to go back to them for more.

Let's see some groups! Your build has me intrigued.
I'm going back and forth on if the Vltor upper will really make that big of a difference over whatever "milspec upper" CLE would use otherwise.

 

[Bantam1]

I have the Centurion Arms upper. It's called MK12 but it has the 18" Douglas barrel and the C4 rail (I think). I bought it a long time ago when they were still a "new" company. It's been a solid performer. With my handloads it's usually a half MOA rifle or slightly less. When I get lazy it will go .7.

 

[USMC_JA]

Let's see some groups! Your build has me intrigued.
I'm going back and forth on if the Vltor upper will really make that big of a difference over whatever "milspec upper" CLE would use otherwise.

As soon as the rain lets up down here and I can get to the range, I'll do so. I'll post some pics when time permits.

I've built plenty of AR's before. They are easy. But I wanted a professional to put this upper/barrel together. My experience suggests that a straight upper that has a high quality barrel tightly mounted will give you your best chance for optimal accuracy/precision. I likely could have done it myself. But since I was spending the money on a top tier barrel, I decided to let CLE do it. And the price for truing the receiver and mounting the barrel was beyond reasonable.

As an aside, the Vltor upper did not fit the barrel extension to the 'Smith's satisfaction. So, they had to change the extension and do a bit more fitting. So, in the end, I'm glad I let them do it. But results will speak for themselves.

 

[bigjake83]

Or any other 1/2 MOA claims as well; 3 shot groups need not apply.

MM

 

[MontanaMan]

View attachment 7075169

View attachment 7075171

Saw that before. Great shooting with a nice piece.

MM

 

[USMC_JA]

View attachment 7075169

View attachment 7075171

Bitch, Bitch, Bitch.

That is some damn fine shooting. Can you give us more details on the rifle and ammo?

 

[bigjake83]

Bitch, Bitch, Bitch.

That is some damn fine shooting. Can you give us more details on the rifle and ammo?

Here is some basic info from another thread.

77gr SMK/ RamShot Tac 23.5gr/ LC Brass/ CCI BR4 Primmers/ PMag Length.

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/going-to-order-a-compass-lake-spr-upper.6938279/

 

[bigjake83]

I've actually found a way to build even better Rifles from that standard.

This is from a 16" Recce at a
100yrds, 10 shot Group with a 8X Trijicon Accupower, just confirming zero before it goes home.

 

[bigjake83]

And anyone who talks shits about my two flyers can suck a dick!...lol

You can't see for shit with 8 power at 100yrds, the center reticle is bigger than the bullseye. I walked down range, not thinking it was going to be anything special, saw my Target and said to myself.. "That'll do pig, that'll do".

 

[USMC_JA]

Here is some basic info from another thread.

77gr SMK/ RamShot Tac 23.5gr/ LC Brass/ CCI BR4 Primmers/ PMag Length.

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/going-to-order-a-compass-lake-spr-upper.6938279/

Shit. I posted in that thread and somehow either a) missed your post or b) forgot I saw it. Apologies. That type of shooting should not be so casually forgotten.

 

[USMC_JA]

Let's see some groups! Your build has me intrigued.
I'm going back and forth on if the Vltor upper will really make that big of a difference over whatever "milspec upper" CLE would use otherwise.

Made a quick trip to the range this morning. By the time I zeroed the rifle, got the gas adjusted, and performed my "barrel break in," I ran out of time for serious precision testing. Because I couldn't really help myself, I went ahead and quickly shot 4 5-shot groups at 100 yards with factory ammo: 69 and 77gr FGMM and 75gr BHs. The gun shot all groups between .6-.8 MOA. And I was shooting faster than I normally would. A representative group is attached. They were all about the same.

This thing might end up being a shooter. We shall see.

 

[Bakwa]

So I'm likely going to let CLE throw this one together for me. Out of all of my options, it just seems like they will give me the most performance and attention to detail for my dollar. I'm going to call at the end of the month and ask some questions about their recommended way to get what I'm looking for and go from there.
Perhaps down the road I'll track down a KAC LPR rifle or upper and jump on it as well. Does anyone know if KAC plans to make any more?

 

[Steel head]

I threw a Rainier UM SPR barrel into a BCM upper receiver.
Barrel went in absolutely slop free requiring some mild tapping in.

No complaints

 

[The DFC]

So I'm likely going to let CLE throw this one together for me. Out of all of my options, it just seems like they will give me the most performance and attention to detail for my dollar. I'm going to call at the end of the month and ask some questions about their recommended way to get what I'm looking for and go from there.
Perhaps down the road I'll track down a KAC LPR rifle or upper and jump on it as well. Does anyone know if KAC plans to make any more?

KAC plans to make any more LPRs? I wasn't aware they would stop-or are you referring to using Krieger barrels in them?

 

[Temper]

That barrel and chamber is an excellent combination for starting a build. Lilja offers a few different contours for different weights BUT that barrel will not be cheap but you will get what you pay for.

I'd pass on the Lilja RECCE barrels unless you get an adjustable gas block. They are horribly overgassed because they drill a .083 gas port. Mine kicks harder than my Mk18. They are accurate, though.

 

[Bakwa]

KAC plans to make any more LPRs? I wasn't aware they would stop-or are you referring to using Krieger barrels in them?

Perhaps I'm confusing the continuation of their current recipe for LPR's with the idea of them continuing the LPR's all together.
To refine my question, does anyone know if KAC will continue to make LPR's using the same components that have earned them their reputation for both excellent accuracy and reliability in the coming future?
I already have a 16" SR-15; I don't need another expensive upper that merely does the same stuff as the one I already have. Each rifle a purpose, and all that...

 

[87stang]

www.highcalibersales.com

This is what you seek for all your Mk12, mk18, Mk13 and RECCE needs

 

[Bakwa]

www.highcalibersales.com

This is what you seek for all your Mk12, mk18, Mk13 and RECCE needs

I know these guys have been the way to go for a great clone down to the spec. I'm really not sure a MK12 clone will give me the performance that I'm looking for though. This is one of those, "What the military is using may not be good enough." kind of things.