That, and they are predominantly radial style brakes, vs. self-timing side port like you see nowadays.
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Good video showing effectiveness of a tuner
- Thread starter Dthomas3523
- Start date
Maybe not *during* the match but certainly at the match. Instead of adjusting loads on the practice day they are adjusting the tuner. Now they can show up to nationals with all of the match ammo loaded before hand.
Meh. Just go to the hardware store and get a bag full of 1" hose clamps. Just keep adding them on until your groups tighten up.
If you're interested in trying a tuner but dont want to have to send your rifle off and spend money for threading you may be interested in the Adaptive Tuning System (ATS) design. I've been running the prototypes on everything of mine for a while so let me know if you have any questions.
www.KineticSecuritySolutions.com
www.KineticSecuritySolutions.com
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Just a couple of things. The TPI on both are actually the same at 24TPI. Regarding threads and alignment, the ATS uses your muzzle threads so Id say thats pretty aligned. Tuners work via the weight location moving fwd or rear. Once its on the gun its consistent in movement as its secured via the muzzle threads and the brake or can up against it. Comparing the length of threads on the EC vs the ATS actually has ZERO impact on the capabilities of either tuner.
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Before you go getting all defensive, please re-read what I said. The length of thread really wasn't what I was getting at.
Either way, more options on the market are a good thing, and I look forward to tinkering with one of Aaron's devices when they become available.
Either way, more options on the market are a good thing, and I look forward to tinkering with one of Aaron's devices when they become available.
The length of threads likely don’t have impact on the capabilities of the tuners. But they can potentially play a role in the durability of them.
Not saying it will play a role. But minimum threads vs a lot of threads can make a difference in say a situation where someone is pulling it out of a port hole pretty hard and catches the tuner on the edge.
Again, I might night matter. But it’s possible.
The Kenetic Security Solutions tuner looks pretty interesting. @bohem told me about some experiences with them and left me very interested as I shoot a lot of factory ammo. Being able to be used on any standard threaded barrel without having to have additional machine work is a huge advantage.
Kinetic Security Solutions LLC
Dedicated to providing quality products to the shooting community.
www.kineticsecuritysolutions.com
I wasnt actually getting defensive, I was just trying to clarify a few points. Its hard to tell context via text so please dont take it as defensive.
Even if you caught it on something, its threaded on the muzzle, and sandwiched in with your suppressor or brake so you'd have to pull all that off as well which I dont think is going to happen lol
Hi,
@flounderv2
Are you connected with Kinetic Security Solutions? Reason I ask is I was getting ready to send you a PM but figured if you were not connected with them you may not want to deal with business related PMs, lol.
Sincerely,
Theis
@flounderv2
Are you connected with Kinetic Security Solutions? Reason I ask is I was getting ready to send you a PM but figured if you were not connected with them you may not want to deal with business related PMs, lol.
Sincerely,
Theis
I’d suggest someone screwing it on an old barrel and really catching it hard against a metal barricade or porthole.
Not just to ensure no damage can be done, but to get a feel for any reactions from shooter. If guys start ripping their rifle out of their hands if it catches, that won’t be good.
Don't think it would be any different than someone jamming their muzzle brake or can.
Youre basing that math on a completely different application for bolts that has no relevance in this situation. These arent bolts holding two materials together. Putting it differently, by your definition your muzzle threads should be full engagement with your brake for ~.940 when the normal muzzle length is .600 with approx 50k undercut minimum. Its just the wrong application of math for this situation.
How about I actually do this and video it just to put it to rest.
And Ill make it way more extreme than a barrel pulling back through a port.
If you get your rifle ripped out of your hands youve got bigger issues to deal with. lol Its a smaller OD than a suppressor and people run them just fine. You guys are really going to extremes here to grasp at something. How many people have been running cans for years. Ive never heard of a single can getting ripped off or ripping a rifle out of someones hands. lol
^^^^ This ^^^^
We worked for years (and continue to work in some niches) to insure rifle systems have minimal snag points.
Now we have the 20# and over game toy rifles that are populating the PRS/NRL/etc. firing lines with their plates, bipods, weights, HUDs, brakes, suppressors, microwaves, bidets and short wave radios attached. Every add-on is an edge to snag on ........ anything that even remotely gets proximate to the shooter will snag the rifle.
I would hardly be worried about a tuner catching and ripping the rifle from someone's grasp.....
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Most of those are tapered for this reason or at least don’t have sharp corners to catch.
Doesn’t mean people don’t jam them into things and catch them on things. I am sure you have seen it. I know I have.
And if the rifle gets ripped out of your hands then not sure what to say. That’s a real issue on the shooter and not the rifle.
And if the rifle gets ripped out of your hands then not sure what to say. That’s a real issue on the shooter and not the rifle.
Please post a tapered can or muzzle brake. This comment is a bit laughable. Look we get it, you like and run the EC tuner. There is nothing wrong with that and Erik has a quality tuner and is one helluva shooter. Just realize that grasping at straws to try and discount another product doesnt build your credibility. Both products are tuners and both will help you tune loads. They just have different attachment designs.
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Here ya go Dthomas.
I think we can dispense now with your statements around the possibility of "Muzzle brakes and Suppressors to get ripped off your barrel" Your comments were good for a laugh though Ill give you that.
I think we can dispense now with your statements around the possibility of "Muzzle brakes and Suppressors to get ripped off your barrel" Your comments were good for a laugh though Ill give you that.
Here ya go Dthomas.
I think we can dispense now with your statements around the possibility of "Muzzle brakes and Suppressors to get ripped off your barrel" Your comments were good for a laugh though Ill give you that.
Feel free to quote where I said anywhere about it being ripped off? I simply asked about it getting caught.
Also, might be about time to upgrade to a commercial account.
I'm sure there are seasoned moderators watching that are more than capable of knowing where the line is for pushing someone to a commercial accountAlso, might be about time to upgrade to a commercial account.
.There are literally hundreds of new products announced by hundreds of people on these forums every year. 99% of the posters do not continue on to flood the pages pushing whatever the service or widget is.
SH members are exposed to a shit ton of new shooting related services and products, many before they are announced at SHOT, etc.
I would hardly think that just because you are at odds with a member or said member's ideas, you should be trying to call the dogs on him. Starting that trend would prolly encourage many new ideas to be routed directly to social media and other sources to avoid having to endure petty bullshit.
./
I don’t think he was being serious he put a smiley on it,
to be honest, just because I don’t shake companies down doesn’t take away the fact people have no problem using my site and services for free and still have no problem disrespecting me every chance they get. I can even point to the, “you didn’t do anything posts “ about me in this regard
this site doesn’t run for free, it’s more than most mortgages as we use dedicated server(s) with terabytes of data that aren’t cheap.
SH is still a business, that said I have no interest in shaking people down. Dont want their money as evidence by the large number of people running businesses on here under the radar. Lots of money changes hands everyday and when people are called out, it’s always their personal stuff despite the business on hand.
I did a podcast with David Tubb he talked in one about using the brake as a tuner. Look for a Sept episode with him.
Any how, I think it was joke, when they are serious I get a group PM.
it would be nice though for people to recognize this is a business. Most days I feel like a local mall owner where random people just show up and drop kiosks, then yell at me for asking for rent. The few that get this I appreciate more than I can say, they rest, meh.
to be honest, just because I don’t shake companies down doesn’t take away the fact people have no problem using my site and services for free and still have no problem disrespecting me every chance they get. I can even point to the, “you didn’t do anything posts “ about me in this regard
this site doesn’t run for free, it’s more than most mortgages as we use dedicated server(s) with terabytes of data that aren’t cheap.
SH is still a business, that said I have no interest in shaking people down. Dont want their money as evidence by the large number of people running businesses on here under the radar. Lots of money changes hands everyday and when people are called out, it’s always their personal stuff despite the business on hand.
I did a podcast with David Tubb he talked in one about using the brake as a tuner. Look for a Sept episode with him.
Any how, I think it was joke, when they are serious I get a group PM.
it would be nice though for people to recognize this is a business. Most days I feel like a local mall owner where random people just show up and drop kiosks, then yell at me for asking for rent. The few that get this I appreciate more than I can say, they rest, meh.
Frank, I absolutely didn't mean anything negative toward SH or the way you administer it. I apologize if anything in my post about even hinted at such.
This site provides a medium to share info, introduce new ideas and even have some of those new ideas shot down by the sea of users and enthusiasts that visit here.
I know SH is a business that you a have cultivated and continue to evolve. I don't take this forum for granted and I respect you for all the BS you put up with.
i appreciate the opportunity to get info, give info, laugh my ass off and event vent on these pages. If I ever cross a line in any of those directions, I expect you or your crew to delete my drivel and throw a flag on the play.
./
This site provides a medium to share info, introduce new ideas and even have some of those new ideas shot down by the sea of users and enthusiasts that visit here.
I know SH is a business that you a have cultivated and continue to evolve. I don't take this forum for granted and I respect you for all the BS you put up with.
i appreciate the opportunity to get info, give info, laugh my ass off and event vent on these pages. If I ever cross a line in any of those directions, I expect you or your crew to delete my drivel and throw a flag on the play.
./
I have two barrels in my shop now waiting for me to install EC tuners. The customer should have a range report by the weekend.
Ern - Altus Rifle Builder
Ern - Altus Rifle Builder
Ordered the Adaptive Tuning System (barrel tuner) a week ago, it arrived yesterday, and got it mounted on my MPA rifle in about 30 minutes.
Standard (edit) version 1 MPA DN3 self timing brake is a no-go, not enough thread left over (lock nut is too long). Swapped it out for the ZRO CIB 6.5 brake which uses shims, and that was a very good fit. [Mr. Aaron Hipp was helpful and responsive, and indicated they are working on additional versions that will work with different brakes and larger diameter barrels.]
Edit: Aaron indicated that the version 2 MPA brake works fine with his tuner. As Rob indicated below, many/most other self timing brakes also work well.
Shot the rifle today at 200, and confirmed that i could get a random non-optimized load to shoot relatively well, around 0.35 to 0.4 MOA, which is typical for an optimized load in this rifle. Zero load development so far, no ladder test yet, just trying to use up old 142 gn SMK bullets that i have been hoarding for 7 years. H4350 and a long 45 thou jump. Influenced by Cal Zant’s article on the topic of bullet jump.
Bullet Jump: Is Less Always Better?
About 2 years ago, Mark Gordon shared some preliminary research he’d conducted with the Applied Bal...
precisionrifleblog.com
Of course, if you turn the tuner the ‘wrong’ way, it might double your group size, but you keep turning the tuner 2 hash marks at a time, shooting 2 shot groups until POI stabilizes and group size get relatively small and stable (fairly constant group size), then do 3 or 5 shot groups in that ‘good’ range with smaller adjustments.
Rain storm interrupted the fun, but i have to say it seems to work as advertised. Will repeat next weekend and see if group size and POI follows a pattern...
Can confirm: No additional machining is required. Standard 5/8 x 24 threads work as-is. As long as you don’t try to use an incompatible self timing brake, all is well.
Downsides? Not many: Set screw needs to be tightened and loosened every time you adjust and shoot, which slows you down by 15 seconds. You should take care not to over tighten and strip the set screw. And no i did not strip it (yet!), just repeating what the manual advised. They provide a spare set screw. Edit: There are some brakes that will not work, my V1 MPA brake being one of them. Many / most self timing brakes work just fine it seems, see post lower down from Rob.
So in summary: I think Eric’s tuner looks more attractive and is more aesthetically pleasing, and because the barrel is cut to fit the tuner, there is much less of a gap between tuner and barrel. Less chance of the tuner hooking on a barrier. But of course that costs extra money. Gucci solution.
l plan to add a piece of black plastic plumbing pipe to close off the big gap. Red neck solution.
Group got worse when shot the first time at 200 yards, with the tuner installed:
Then turned the tuner, got slightly better:
Then two more hash marks, and it tightened up nicely:
Wind was switching from 7 o’clock to 5 O'clock and i missed the change in wind direction. I like the low vertical spread. Could have been a 0.35 MOA group if i paid attention to the wind, so the horizontal is on me. Three shot cluster on the right is 0.24 MOA according to Ballistic-X.
Range session got cut short by a thunder storm, so not fully optimized yet, but showing promise. Will also try it at 500.
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Got the EK tuner installed on my 223. Barrel is a 25” Brux MTU, and I’m using a SiCo Omega w/ Area419 Hellfire adapter. There is a slight gap between the tuner and back of the adapter, but Erik recommends that you leave one.
Installed - mind the indicator mark:
Tested with factory Hornady Black 75gr BTHP for effectiveness sake. Actual load will be with 80gr ELDs. All 3 shot groups at 100 yards. Please excuse the terrible target pics, that’s all I had to shoot at.
Shouldered (0 @ witness):
10-15 @ witness:
Full rev +5 @ witness (with confirmation):
In short, tuner works great.
Installed - mind the indicator mark:
Tested with factory Hornady Black 75gr BTHP for effectiveness sake. Actual load will be with 80gr ELDs. All 3 shot groups at 100 yards. Please excuse the terrible target pics, that’s all I had to shoot at.
Shouldered (0 @ witness):
10-15 @ witness:
Full rev +5 @ witness (with confirmation):
In short, tuner works great.
Everyone, make sure you zoom in on the pics of the tuner above for the proper way to laser engrave the zero witness mark.
Ordered the Adaptive Tuning System (barrel tuner) a week ago, it arrived yesterday, and got it mounted on my MPA rifle in about 30 minutes.
Standard MPA DN3 self timing brake is a no go, not enough thread left over (lock nut is too long). Swapped it out for the ZRO CIB 6.5 brake which uses shims, and that was a very good fit. [Mr. Aaron Hipp was helpful and responsive, and indicated they are working on additional versions that will work with self timing brakes and larger barrels.]
Shot the rifle today at 200, and confirmed that i could get a non-optimized load to shoot relatively well, around 0.35 to 0.4 MOA. Which is typical for an optimized load in this rifle. Zero load development so far, no ladder test yet, just trying to use up old 142 gn SMK bullets that i have been hoarding for 7 years. H4350 and a 45 thou jump. Influenced by Cal Zant’s article on the topic of bullet jump.
Bullet Jump: Is Less Always Better?
About 2 years ago, Mark Gordon shared some preliminary research he’d conducted with the Applied Bal...
Of course, if you turn the tuner the ‘wrong’ way, it might double your group size, but you keep turning the tuner 2 hash marks at a time, shooting 2 shot groups until POI stabilizes and group size get relatively small and stable (fairly constant group size), then do 3 or 5 shot groups in that ‘good’ range with smaller adjustments.
Rain storm interrupted the fun, but i have to say it seems to work as advertised. Will repeat next weekend and see if group size and POI follows a pattern...
Can confirm: No additional machining is required. Standard 5/8 x 24 threads work as is. As long as you don’t try to use a self timing brake, all is well.
Downsides? Not many: Set screw needs to be tightened and loosened every time you adjust and shoot. You should take care not to over tighten and strip the set screw. And no i did not strip it (yet!), just repeating what the manual advised. They provide a spare set screw. Does not work with all brakes.
So in summary: I think Eric’s tuner looks more attractive and is more aesthetically pleasing, and because the barrel is cut to fit the tuner, there is much less of a gap between tuner and barrel. Less chance of the tuner hooking on a barrier. But of course that costs extra money. Gucci solution.
l plan to add a piece of black plastic plumbing pipe to close off the big gap. Red neck solution.
View attachment 7356766
View attachment 7356780
View attachment 7356781
View attachment 7356784
Group got worse when shot the first time with the tuner installed:
View attachment 7356786
Then turned the tuner, got slightly better:
View attachment 7356788
Then two more hash marks, and it tightened up nicely:
View attachment 7356789
Wind was switching from 7 o’clock to 5 O'clock and i missed the change in wind direction. I like the low vertical spread. Could have been a 0.35 MOA group if i paid attention to the wind, so the horizontal is on me. Three shot cluster on the right is 0.24 MOA according to Ballistic-X.
Range session got cut short by a thunder storm so not fully optimized yet, but showing promise. Will also try it at 500.
I think it depends on the self timing brake used as all I have seen with people using this tuner with have used self timing brakes except for yours. Even in the video on the KSS site it shows one being screwed on and it grabs a lot of threads and has about the same as yours showing. I am surprised it didn't fit with as much threads as you have left showing. That MPA brake must be real shallow and made to use all the threads. The PVA brakes work with that tuner if you wanted to get a self timing brake.
Thanks for the pics and info.
So......is everyone using these tuners in such a way that you reload for wanted SD/ES and then "tuning-in" for accuracy?
Thus.....eliminating the need to "settle on an accuracy node" and direct the focus to reloading to a specific destination.
Ern
Thus.....eliminating the need to "settle on an accuracy node" and direct the focus to reloading to a specific destination.
Ern
Funny man @bohem lasered one on my AI barrel close to the barrel tenon. Thank god it actually clocked at the 6:00 position.
24hr "oh shit" services still cost something ;-)
Not sure what you’re calling an accuracy node as everyone seems to have it different.
A tuner does the exact same thing seating depth does. You can use it in place of or in conjunction with. Regardless, you should be focused on the powder sd/es/velocity node separate from your group size.
You can make any powder charge group well via seating depth or tuner, regardless if that powder charge is in a powder node.
Tuners were pretty popular in smallbore for a while......but you really dont see them much anymore.
they do work, from what ive seen.....but they wont make a $2 steak into $200 fillet mignon.
at least as far as smallbore goes, most people would rather invest the time into finding a lot that shoots good, rather than making a subpar lot shoot well....as they do seem to have a point of diminishing returns.
they do work, from what ive seen.....but they wont make a $2 steak into $200 fillet mignon.
at least as far as smallbore goes, most people would rather invest the time into finding a lot that shoots good, rather than making a subpar lot shoot well....as they do seem to have a point of diminishing returns.
You are indeed correct sir.
Had an email exchange with Aaron today, and i have the original Version 1 DN3 brake which has the longer lock nut. Apparently MPA modified their design and their V2 self tuning brake works fine with this tuner.
I will edit my post to reflect that.
All i want from a tuner is to arrive at a good load + tuner setting for a particular distance with minimal effort, and to save on components and barrel life.
You should be able to develop a load with the same amount of rounds with and without a tuner.
If you are going to maximize the benefit, you’ll actually shoot more rounds in load development with a tuner. As you’ll find your seating depth with tuner set to zero and then dial it in even better with tuner after.
The only thing I change with prs rifle is I don’t mess with seating depth. Just load .020 off lands and use the tuner to dial group size down. As prs doesn’t have the accuracy requirements as other disciplines.
You also won’t save any barrel life using a tuner.
Let’s say you have a load that shoots very well at 100 with low ES. When you take it to 800, it “falls apart.”
A tuner absolutely will not help with this. As the issue is either the shooter or the bullet. If it’s the bullet, it’s because the BC variance from bullet to bullet is too large. This usually means bullet sorting or tipping is needed. The other possibility is a stability issue, but as long as you’re running an appropriate twist and speed, that shouldn’t be the problem.
You already have the powder charge figured out (es/sd) and the seating depth/group size done (shooting well at 100). Just like groups can’t miraculously get smaller, they can’t miraculously get bigger.......unless there is a viable explanation.
None of which a tuner will fix.
A tuner absolutely will not help with this. As the issue is either the shooter or the bullet. If it’s the bullet, it’s because the BC variance from bullet to bullet is too large. This usually means bullet sorting or tipping is needed. The other possibility is a stability issue, but as long as you’re running an appropriate twist and speed, that shouldn’t be the problem.
You already have the powder charge figured out (es/sd) and the seating depth/group size done (shooting well at 100). Just like groups can’t miraculously get smaller, they can’t miraculously get bigger.......unless there is a viable explanation.
None of which a tuner will fix.
This makes sense.....I honestly didn't know the correlations with powder charge (ES/SD) and seating depth (group size). In the past I think I have just stumbled upon great combinations of both. Of course, I don't have a bazillion dollars in top shelf reloading equipment and I am not chasing "0" size groups either.
Good information......thank you.
Ern
Good information......thank you.
Ern
