Got a cheap bore scope. Is this rifle cooked?

[AleksanderSuave]

Tikka t3x CTR. about 800 rounds down the pipe. Started getting issues recently with it heating up unusually after 20 rounds, POI shift as well, and groups started opening up as well.

Figured it was due time for a cleaning. Did my usual routine with hoppes, bore brush, relube, etc. Didnt make much of a difference.

Went back and picked up some SLIP 2000 carbon killer, let it soak inside and then ran bronze brushes through, and patches until patches came out clean.

I ordered a borescope out of curiosity and this is what I find in the length of the chamber:

so..did I completely miss cleaning the most important part like an idiot, or is that long line a stress fracture/crack?

The rifling/barrel after has a few streaks of copper and carbon from what I can see in the borescope but does not look anything like this

 

[JeffLebowski]

You think the barrel might have a long crack?

 

[AleksanderSuave]

I will be the first to admit I have no clue what Im looking at, but this looks to primarily be in the chamber, its longer than 6.5 round (maybe an inch longer) before the actual rifling begins, from what I can see.

 

[AleksanderSuave]

second cleaning, I thought this was a hair/leftover fabric in the first shot.

looks a lot worse

 

[ormandj]

You need to figure out your borescope pictures (better exposure of the barrel and not the edge of the mirror), but if that’s the chamber it’s likely just a tool mark from someone who doesn’t pay attention, or an artifact of cleaning improperly. It won’t impact accuracy. What’s the throat/rifling look like?

 

[AleksanderSuave]

Yeah the camera doesn’t offer any adjustable settings. I may have to try it on a windows computer instead to see if their application offers any camera settings

 

[Bradv86]

If it is the teslong, the angled mirror can be screwed in or out some to help focus the image for the bore diameter you are checking.

 

[Dirty D]

…Started getting issues recently with it heating up unusually after 20 rounds, POI shift as well, and groups started opening up as well…

The barrel is telling you that it is done.

 

[Bacarrat]

Is this a pic of the chamber area? Not seeing any lands or grooves in the barrel. Usually when there are no lands and grooves there is a lot of firecracking and a lot of copper deposits too.

 

[AleksanderSuave]

If it is the teslong, the angled mirror can be screwed in or out some to help focus the image for the bore diameter you are checking.

I’ll try that today. It is the teslong

 

[GrumpyOleFart]

My OCD just kicked in.
I cannot let a barrel get filthy.
Give it a really good scrub, then look at it.
Soft brush, warm water, and dishwasher liquid, if the other stuff isn't shifting it.
Treat it like a black powder rifle.
Rag it out properly, nice and dry, then check it again.
Did you have it from new, or is it a second hand rifle?
Surprised if it's from new, and died already.

 

[Wannashootit]

Symptoms correlate to a burned out throat.
Unless you're loading really hot, I wouldn't expect a 6.5 Creedmoor to go south at 800 rounds, should be good for double that easily.

I'm still trying to figure out why the bore is literally black, I have no idea what I'm really looking at.

If you're gonna poke around with the borescope, you need to look at the throat- that's where the erosion occurs.
Just ahead of the chamber neck, past the freebore where the tapered leade begins. As mentioned above, that's where you'll see firecracking from the plasma jet that burns up barrels.

Are you shooting factory ammo? If so, nothing you can do- but if you handload, you need to check your OAL with a comparator.
After 800 rounds, you've gained freebore which has increased your bullet jump. Often, accuracy can be improved by seating the bullet out to get back to the same jump you had originally.

 

[AleksanderSuave]

Thank you, I'll check the throat today as well.

All factory ammo (berger, federal gold medal, and hornady eld match)

@GrumpyOleFart Its seen 4 cleanings now, brushes with Slip 2000, soaked in slip 2000, windex, and my traditional combo of hoppes and EWL degreaser/cleaner

 

[ormandj]

Thank you, I'll check the throat today as well.

All factory ammo (berger, federal gold medal, and hornady eld match)

@GrumpyOleFart Its seen 4 cleanings now, brushes with Slip 2000, soaked in slip 2000, windex, and my traditional combo of hoppes and EWL degreaser/cleaner

Do yourself a huge favor, get nice jags, well fitting patches, a good single piece rod and bore guide if you don’t have one, and Boretech Eliminator. You shouldn’t need brushes, and this will clean your barrel significantly faster, better, and more safely if you’re not using a bore guide as is. Brushes can be evil with the exposed steel many have at the front. I like slip2k as a lubricant but it sucks as a cleaner. Hoppes is OK, but there are a ton of products far better now, the one mentioned above is one of them I’ve found I prefer.

 

[Birddog6424]

I cant see enough from those pictures to say something is wrong. But here is what I do know.

I would never make a decision about the longevity of a barrel based on a borescope. There's rarely even a use for one for the average gun owner, they rarely tell you anything useful.

The deciding factor on a barrel is how it shoots. And you haven't said anything that legitimately answers that question. Is this a 6.5 round? If so, I seriously doubt it's shot out. What barrel contour are you shooting? 20 round shot strings will heat up any barrel, some worse than others.

If it shoots better with 10 round shot strings, then stick to that. Or the barrel heating up is exposing another flaw in your build. I had a 6.5 Creedmoor with a carbon barrel that used to do this. I blamed the barrel, until my Smith took it apart and realized the barrel was threaded too far into the action and was making contact in all the wrong places.

I really doubt it's the barrel.

 

[AleksanderSuave]

I cant see enough from those pictures to say something is wrong. But here is what I do know.

I would never make a decision about the longevity of a barrel based on a borescope. There's rarely even a use for one for the average gun owner, they rarely tell you anything useful.

The deciding factor on a barrel is how it shoots. And you haven't said anything that legitimately answers that question. Is this a 6.5 round? If so, I seriously doubt it's shot out. What barrel contour are you shooting? 20 round shot strings will heat up any barrel, some worse than others.

If it shoots better with 10 round shot strings, then stick to that. Or the barrel heating up is exposing another flaw in your build. I had a 6.5 Creedmoor with a carbon barrel that used to do this. I blamed the barrel, until my Smith took it apart and realized the barrel was threaded too far into the action and was making contact in all the wrong places.

I really doubt it's the barrel.

correct on it being 6.5

The issue I was getting was POI shift and groups spreading (1-2 inches across sometimes) from a rifle that was previously 0.25 MOA at 100 yards, and consistently 0.5 moa even with new shooters.

This now starts even before the 20 rounds, and open up significantly worse after.

 

[AleksanderSuave]

I shined light on it from both sides, was able to see the fracture/cracking from another angle by removing the mirror attachment.

Also took it to a local gunsmith today who confirmed that it needs to be sent back to tikka after inspecting the chamber.

The second shot is towards the throat. Basically I took a bunch of photos, but the largest section is that long "hair" looking fracture.

 

[Wannashootit]

Also took it to a local gunsmith today who confirmed that it needs to be sent back to tikka after inspecting the chamber.

What chamber defect did he find?

 

[CerebralDistortion]

Any lands left in there? Cause they're kind of hard to see...
Better pics?

 

[JGR1953]

I shined light on it from both sides, was able to see the fracture/cracking from another angle by removing the mirror attachment.

Also took it to a local gunsmith today who confirmed that it needs to be sent back to tikka after inspecting the chamber.

The second shot is towards the throat. Basically I took a bunch of photos, but the largest section is that long "hair" looking fracture.

From the looks of these pictures you've got a serious carbon ring.

 

[ormandj]

See above for cleaning suggestions re: carbon ring. I really can't tell from the pictures, but the existing cleaning regimen isn't going to really address things well.

 

[1moaoff]

Still not enough information.

 

[AleksanderSuave]

long overdue update. Heard from beretta repair center finally. They said the rifle will have to be destroyed and they will be contacting me to discuss a replacement rifle (depending on stock/availability)

 

[6.5SH]

long overdue update. Heard from beretta repair center finally. They said the rifle will have to be destroyed and they will be contacting me to discuss a replacement rifle (depending on stock/availability)

Wow, so even they won't re-barrel them? Or was there a bigger issue?

 

[GrumpyOleFart]

At least you are making progress.
Hope you have better luck with your new rifle.

 

[AleksanderSuave]

Wow, so even they won't re-barrel them? Or was there a bigger issue?

The customer support rep would not elaborate much at all. When I asked if it was due to the cracked chamber all I got was that it was set to be destroyed and cannot be repaired. Im guessing it was the only response they were allowed to share. Admitting that it left the factory with a cracked chamber would likely also admit to some other liabilities they likely want to avoid.

 

[rustyinbend]

The customer support rep would not elaborate much at all. When I asked if it was due to the cracked chamber all I got was that it was set to be destroyed and cannot be repaired. Im guessing it was the only response they were allowed to share. Admitting that it left the factory with a cracked chamber would likely also admit to some other liabilities they likely want to avoid.

It's like when you terminate an employee, the answer to every question is ... "Billy doesn't work here anymore".

 

[AleksanderSuave]

It's like when you terminate an employee, the answer to every question is ... "Billy doesn't work here anymore".

LOL, pretty spot on. I was told the exchange person will be back from vacation next week and they will likely have more info on the specifics.

I am curious but soured on the tikka brand after this. 4 months in the queue, my rifle was set to be destroyed at the beginning of this month, and no notice for almost 30 days now, and it sounds like I would have not gotten one at all had I not sat through their 2 hour hold time..Likely going to become a Bergara customer instead after this exchange.

 

[AleksanderSuave]

I cant see enough from those pictures to say something is wrong. But here is what I do know.

I would never make a decision about the longevity of a barrel based on a borescope. There's rarely even a use for one for the average gun owner, they rarely tell you anything useful.

The deciding factor on a barrel is how it shoots. And you haven't said anything that legitimately answers that question. Is this a 6.5 round? If so, I seriously doubt it's shot out. What barrel contour are you shooting? 20 round shot strings will heat up any barrel, some worse than others.

If it shoots better with 10 round shot strings, then stick to that. Or the barrel heating up is exposing another flaw in your build. I had a 6.5 Creedmoor with a carbon barrel that used to do this. I blamed the barrel, until my Smith took it apart and realized the barrel was threaded too far into the action and was making contact in all the wrong places.

I really doubt it's the barrel.

I appreciate the insight, I thought I shared enough detail but looks like it wasnt posted here, just on my local forum.

The "barrel" (rifle and all) went from .5 moa, or better, consistently at 100 yards (even with other shooters trying it), to opening up shot groups to 1" or greater variance, random POI shifts (up/down/left/right), regardless of 20 shots, 5 shots, 60 shots, or cold bore.

Tikka T3x CTR doesnt really offer any additional contours, its just the CTR contour, or what they call "semi-heavy". they offer some varmints in a heavier, and lite's in a lighter, but nothing else offered on the T3X CTR as far as I searched, other than this "semi-heavy".

I did verify the issue with a local gunsmith, who said send it back to Tikka based on his own inspection as well.

By the time I got to this point in posting about it, regardless of # of cleanings or shot groups, it would no longer group at less than an inch, and the barrel would get uncharacteristically hot, along with the bolt sticking.

 

[Baron23]

I appreciate the insight, I thought I shared enough detail but looks like it wasnt posted here, just on my local forum.

The "barrel" (rifle and all) went from .5 moa, or better, consistently at 100 yards (even with other shooters trying it), to opening up shot groups to 1" or greater variance, random POI shifts (up/down/left/right), regardless of 20 shots, 5 shots, 60 shots, or cold bore.

Tikka T3x CTR doesnt really offer any additional contours, its just the CTR contour, or what they call "semi-heavy". they offer some varmints in a heavier, and lite's in a lighter, but nothing else offered on the T3X CTR as far as I searched, other than this "semi-heavy".

I did verify the issue with a local gunsmith, who said send it back to Tikka based on his own inspection as well.

By the time I got to this point in posting about it, regardless of # of cleanings or shot groups, it would no longer group at less than an inch, and the barrel would get uncharacteristically hot, along with the bolt sticking.

In addition to Bergara, might want to look at Christianson Arms and Seekins Havok. Just a thought

 

[Birddog6424]

I appreciate the insight, I thought I shared enough detail but looks like it wasnt posted here, just on my local forum.

The "barrel" (rifle and all) went from .5 moa, or better, consistently at 100 yards (even with other shooters trying it), to opening up shot groups to 1" or greater variance, random POI shifts (up/down/left/right), regardless of 20 shots, 5 shots, 60 shots, or cold bore.

Tikka T3x CTR doesnt really offer any additional contours, its just the CTR contour, or what they call "semi-heavy". they offer some varmints in a heavier, and lite's in a lighter, but nothing else offered on the T3X CTR as far as I searched, other than this "semi-heavy".

I did verify the issue with a local gunsmith, who said send it back to Tikka based on his own inspection as well.

By the time I got to this point in posting about it, regardless of # of cleanings or shot groups, it would no longer group at less than an inch, and the barrel would get uncharacteristically hot, along with the bolt sticking.

Always frustrating to experience issues like that..

Hope they get it corrected for you.

 

[NBPRP]

That was a rather drastic reaction from Tikka to 'destroy' the rifle. It sound like they realized that their Q&A was/is sub-par and someone let the rifle out of their manufacturing facility. They are now faced with 'backing water' on the rifle and easier to let 'Billy' take the blame and say something like "We always knew Billy was a screw up and that is why we let him go". Maybe that hairline crack is really from 'Billy' stuffing his pubic hairs into the chamber. Who knows?

On a more serious note, it is incomprehensible to destroy the entire rifle. Why not just re-barrel it? Maybe the barrel metal was flawed as was the action but then that would raise some major questions about who is supplying them their steel. I have heard of flaws in barrel steel, in particular SS barrels that had sulfur inclusions that after a certain number of rounds would split open like a banana, usually from the chamber toward the muzzle but that was a long time ago.

Maybe it is time to look at another action manufacturer and screw a barrel on it from one of the Wisconsin barrel makers. Heck they might even throw in a block of cheese and some brats after finding out how Tikka handled the matter but don't expect any Packer tickets.

 

[Im2bent]

Sounds like they stepped up and are giving you a brand new rifle not sure what more someone can ask for? As for the delays, in this day and age its not a surprise everyone is on backorder /waiting for a long time for just about anything. Yes it should not have happened in the first place, but its not a perfect world and shit happens. That's why there are warranties. Tikka for the most part seems to have a good reputation

 

[goosed]

Sounds like they stepped up and are giving you a brand new rifle not sure what more someone can ask for? As for the delays, in this day and age its not a surprise everyone is on backorder /waiting for a long time for just about anything. Yes it should not have happened in the first place, but its not a perfect world and shit happens. That's why there are warranties. Tikka for the most part seems to have a good reputation

Tikka may have a decent reputation, but Beretta handles Tikka's warranties and is a much different animal.

Getting good CS from Beretta is like hitting the lottery. It may happen to someone somewhere at some point in time, but it's definitely not normal.

If I were a betting man my money would be that they aren't sending a new rifle because of the barrel. They are sending a new rifle because his receiver is out of spec and slipped through QA. Likely contributing to the barrel and accuracy issue. So they may not be stepping up at all... rather they might be doing just enough to cover/protect their own ass which is much more inline with the way Beretta tends to operate.

 

[AleksanderSuave]

Tikka may have a decent reputation, but Beretta handles Tikka's warranties and is a much different animal.

Getting good CS from Beretta is like hitting the lottery. It may happen to someone somewhere at some point in time, but it's definitely not normal.

If I were a betting man my money would be that they aren't sending a new rifle because of the barrel. They are sending a new rifle because his receiver is out of spec and slipped through QA. Likely contributing to the barrel and accuracy issue. So they may not be stepping up at all... rather they might be doing just enough to cover/protect their own ass which is much more inline with the way Beretta tends to operate.

Agreed on this front, and Im not gonna lie, being told "we'll contact you about a replacement, but we dont know what it will be or when", after they've had the rifle for 4 months already, is probably the bare minimum effort in customer service.

 

[AleksanderSuave]

In addition to Bergara, might want to look at Christianson Arms and Seekins Havok. Just a thought

Im at a point now where debating more over it, since I snuck into the $1800+ or so price range, I am considering either the Defiance Southfork in the MDT LSS XL Chassis, or the Masterpiece Arms PMR.

I have no experience with the masterpiece arms chassis, but hear nothing but good things about MPA. On the other hand, (Defiance) Southfork's actions and their reputation speaks for itself in the PRS world, and Im already familiar with MDT chassis.

The only real difference between the offerings seems to be barrel swaps, MPA sells an action wrench and vice kit ($125) to do your own (and prefit barrels starting around $600 with quite a few contours and options) while Southfork charges to rebarrel it for you ($650) without any selection or input on the barrel.