Got to see what real over-pressure looks like ...

Snakum

Snakum

Sergeant
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Minuteman
Feb 21, 2010
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Sandhills
#1
Shooting the FCP-K with ZLBubba and another friend yesterday I sent one and got a noticeably sharper recoil. Sure enough ... bolt stuck. Had to beat and bang a little to rack it. When I checked the case the primer had flattened out till there was almost no space between the pocket and the case head, and a large portion of the case head markings were scrubbed off.

My "Lee Perfect Powder Measure" (Jesus ... what a misnomer, if there ever was one) has to be set up on a perfectly level surface (I use a level), then the two shorter legs of the base have to be shimmed to make it level with the level surface. Then I put powdered graphite in the slot where the beam rides. Then when zeroing I have to push it back and forth numerous times and then let it settle, then repeat, to ensure zero. And while weighing I have to constantly bump it both ways because it will stick. I can weigh out a perfect throw. Bump it back and forth a couple of times, then let it settle. And then I'll inadvertently touch it while reaching for the pan to load the case and it'll suddenly read off by .1 or .2 grains. It's all over the map so I intentionally load light when I can. I "throw" the powder with a spoon because the Lee Perfect Powder Measure won't meter 4065 or even 4895 well and I have to trickle it in anyway. So i just spoon it as carefully as humanly possible. And I <span style="font-style: italic">still </span>got a hot one.

So the new scale is on the way and the Lee is in the trash can. I would have given it away but i don't wanna see someone else get hurt by it.

I have 500 Hornady 168gr AMax bullets and eight pounds of H4895 coming too. Both my Savage and my Marlin scout gun shot the Amax very well, so I'm going to try a few hundred of those next. A couple of guys around here swear by them for hunting these small SE whitetail, too, I'll be shooting my hunting bullet for target practice and tactical comp and building up a lot of good info before Fall gets here.

Thanks for all the help on the reloading thang. Will be ladder testing/OCW testing the Amax/H4895 per advice.
 
#3
Re: Got to see what real over-pressure looks like ...

Yeah, it seems half the folks love the Lee scale and half hate it. Must be variances in the molded components or assembly causing issues for some of us. I'm likely ordering the Lyman Pro 1000 tomorrow so I can start sorting my bullets and cases, too. Should be GTG. Any feedback on the Lyman 1000?
 
#4
Re: Got to see what real over-pressure looks like ...

I hate my 5-0-5 for that same reason, I can't get it to settle correctly. I went with the Chargemaster 1500 due to it having the highest ratings both here on the Hide and on all the reviews.
 
#5
Re: Got to see what real over-pressure looks like ...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snakum</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Any feedback on the Lyman 1000? </div></div>

I got the Lyman1300 (or 1200) auto-charge and took it back and upgraded to the chargemaster 1500, it was $60 more but was well worth it compared to the Lyman I had bought.
 
#7
Re: Got to see what real over-pressure looks like ...

Yeah, Snakum had a pretty priceless reaction after that hot load. I didn't notice anything bizarre when he shot it, but man, he knew it when it happened. We checked out the brass and you could easily tell that load was overcharged.

Time to get a new powder measure, my friend!
 
#8
Re: Got to see what real over-pressure looks like ...

I purchased a older used rcbs 505 off ebay when they were still making the whole thing out of metal. I also bought a old, used but goodie ch powder measure at a gun show. I have no problem buying the older stuff thats used cause i know they were well made right here in usa. The chargemasters and all the digital scales are made in china, so i dont trust those ethier.
 
#9
Re: Got to see what real over-pressure looks like ...

I bought a old scale at a gun schow for $25. and had Scott rod rod it, he sells the also, please see below. The link below is a set up with a straw in a powder despensor and a set up to increase speed of production.

http://shootingsoftware.com/smallprojects.htm


"Scott Parker can modify balance beam scales to enhance sensitivity and more importantly, repeatability. Scott tells us: "You can literally count kernels with these scales--after tuning, the scales typically gain a half order of magnitude in sensitivity and a full order of magnitude in repeatability. Outside of a $250+ laboratory scale, a tuned beam scale is the most accurate and precise balance you can buy. I have tuned several 10-10s. They all have turned out very sensitive, consistent and hold linearity like a dream. The sensitivity after tuning is such that one kernel of powder registers a poise beam deflection. For repeatability, I remove the pan and replace it for the zero 10 times. The zero line and the poise beam balance line must coincide for each of those 10 tries. I then set the poises to read 250.0 grains. I remove and replace the pan 10 times with the calibration weight. For repeatability, the poise beam balance line must return to that same balance point ten times. I then adjust the poises back to zero and recheck the zero. A report is generated detailing the initial inspection of the balance, the corrective actions performed and any remaining concerns. I sell Ohaus type 10-10 and model 5-10 scales for $70.00 + shipping. I can also modify your existing 5-10 or 10-10 scales for $20.00 + shipping. Email me at [email protected] or call (661) 364-1199."
 
#10
Re: Got to see what real over-pressure looks like ...

I love my Lee scale, and I hand weigh all my rifle loads. 1 kernel of Varget will move the beam, thats pretty darn sensitive. I use my PP measure for a rough charge and dip the rest, its slow going but it produces accurate ammo. Glad no one got hurt with your overcharge!
 
#12
Re: Got to see what real over-pressure looks like ...

I've gotten pretty good at spooning it in. The Lee thrower won't meter the long kernel powders (I doubt any of them will meter 4064) so I haven't tried using it again. I've gotten fast with a spoon though.
laugh.gif


The over charge actually makes me wonder what the worst case scenario would be in a Savage or Remington action? I'm assuming it would take a pretty hefty overage to damage the rifle, and loading .308 it would be impossible to double charge cuz the case would be overflowing and you'd notice it. Anyone ever seen a .308 over-charge do real damage to a weapon?

ZLBubba has a killer APA/AI rig. Looks about twice as study as my Savage LE. Huge Badger milled action and bolt. Never seen one up close before. I wouldn't sweat the occasional over-charge with that thing.
 
#13
Re: Got to see what real over-pressure looks like ...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dan46n2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So you think a .1-.2 grain difference caused the overpressure?</div></div>

I don't know, really. I am totally anal and precise when loading. But that particular case was an oddball NATO (can't remember the stamp). Charge might have been a bit over and then the brass could have been a little thicker than the Lake City. I have a few hundred once-fired Black Hills/Win brass coming from Deadly so I'm just going to retire the NATO stuff anyway.
 
#14
Re: Got to see what real over-pressure looks like ...

My Lyman (Ohaus) M-5 scale, fore runner of the RCBS 1010, is as dead on accurate and sensitive today as it was the day I pulled it outta the box in mid-'65. I can zero it, set the poises for 260.9 gr., add the little extended range weight that came with it to the pan and the beam will swing two times before stopping at zero, every time.

I can take a small piece of paper, weigh it, then make a half inch mark on on the paper with a #2 pencil and weigh the mark - about a quarter tenth depending on the pencil. Anyone whanna try that with a 45 year old digital scale?
 
#15
Re: Got to see what real over-pressure looks like ...

.2gr in a "not overpressuered to begin with" load won't make a huge difference (at least not with I4895 in my experience).

I'd send the measure back to Lee. I have measured Varget and I4895 for years with mine and it does just as well as my Redding BR.

ANY thrown charges need to be weighed and tossed to where you want them if you are near the top of the preassure, no matter what the scale's reputation or brand name.
 
#16
Re: Got to see what real over-pressure looks like ...

I'm just curious, but if you are having that much trouble with Lee products, why are you using them? It seems like they are only giving you problems, so why bother with them at all?

That being said, I have never liked the Lee scale. The powder measure, on the other hand, is one of the more accurate throwers I have for extruded powders. I have two of them, and they are consistently more accurate than RCBS, Lyman, or Dillon powder measures.

But, back to your post, there is no way 0.1 or 0.2gr of powder pushed you over the limit. More than likely, you were already over max and possibly loaded in a heavier case with less powder capacity. It could be any number of things, but you should always look at the indian before blaming the arrow...
 
#17
Re: Got to see what real over-pressure looks like ...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snakum</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dan46n2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So you think a .1-.2 grain difference caused the overpressure?</div></div>

I don't know, really. I am totally anal and precise when loading. But that particular case was an oddball NATO (can't remember the stamp).</div></div>

I vote that you get the BoneHead Maneuver of the Month Award for that one.

Interchanging brass???

You're weighing charges one by one and there's a DIFFERENT make of brass in your batch of reloads?

Let me guess--you have no idea what the water capacities of those cases are, as fired in your chamber, right?

Yup, blame the powder measure.
 
#18
Re: Got to see what real over-pressure looks like ...

I love how women get all pissy when their favorite brand of anything gets dumped on.
laugh.gif


I sorted all the cases from my Georgia Arms ammo (including measuring water held) and missed one. But the loads aren't anywhere near max. The scale will be used for target practice when the Lyman gets here. I'll post pics.
smile.gif


And for those who don't read well (Marines mostly, I'm sure) I've never thrown a single charge into a case from the Lee Perfect Powder Measure. I spoon them all into the scale pan because it never metered a consistent weight with extruded powders. I doubt any thrower does with 4064, which is pretty long. So instead of throwing light and trickling up I just spoon it. Actually faster once I got in a rhythm.
 
#19
Re: Got to see what real over-pressure looks like ...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I can take a small piece of paper, weigh it, then make a half inch mark on on the paper with a #2 pencil and weigh the mark - about a quarter tenth depending on the pencil. Anyone whanna try that with a 45 year old digital scale? </div></div>

The digital part of the circuit is not where the majority of the error originates in an electronic scale. It is the analog part that causes most of the error. The digital display just displays the measurement with the error included.

It is like when a handloader puts a strain gauge on his rifle barrel to measure pressure. The display may be on a digital laptop, but the bulk of the errors are from strain gauge bonding alignment [analog] and poor modeling of the breech taper with Roark's formulas [analog].
 
#21
Re: Got to see what real over-pressure looks like ...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But the loads aren't anywhere near max</div></div>

The scale isn't your problem, your reloading ability is the problem.

If you weren't "anywhere near max", then there is no way a scale you state is only off 0.1-0.2gr would cause a stuck bolt. Period. Let's assume by "aren't anywhere near max", you mean 1.5-2.0gr below max for 4064. That would mean your scale would have had to of been off by at least 2.0-2.5gr minimum <span style="font-weight: bold">for only one charge</span> to cause a stuck bolt. Now, it would be one thing if you had multiple rounds showing pressure signs, but you only stated one. Strictly speaking, beam scales don't typically exhibit this kind of inaccuracy. Digital scales can, as they can exhibit sensitivity to any number of outside factors. Beam scales, on the other hand, would show the inaccuracy all the time (not just one random throw).

Now, if the scale was off by more than 0.2gr at a time, then you are a fool for using faulty equipment. But, I would have to argue that the scale is likely not the issue, and a new Lyman will likely not fix your problem. I have yet to see any beam scale that was off by more than a few tenths or so that didn't have obvious issues (oxidation, bent beam, wrong pan, etc). The majority of these scales, Lee included, are very accurate when properly setup. Sounds to me like you are either using known faulty equipment to reload with, or possibly don't know how to properly setup the scale and verify zero (as well as verifying with check weights).
 
#22
Re: Got to see what real over-pressure looks like ...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The scale isn't your problem, your reloading ability is the problem </div></div>

The scale may have been bumped, and the ball moved over 10gr higher
eek.gif
 
#23
Re: Got to see what real over-pressure looks like ...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snakum</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But the loads aren't anywhere near max.</div></div>
For THAT case they sure are.

You nicely reported knowing the water capacity of the Georgia Arms ammo, but not a word about "that one case".

Now, when I get a full 1.0 grain more powder in a case compared to the others, I can tell by the difference of how far up the shoulder or neck the powder settles.

If there is a 2.0 or more grain difference in water capacity between different types of brass, I can also tell something is afoot because the powder level will be a bit different.

I STRONGLY suggest that even when you get your blessed new powder scale, you go "old school" and charge a batch on a loading block before seating the bullets.

Got no beef with your spooning and trickle technique. The rest of the process lacks certain...controls. Inspection is a great element of good process control. Inspection in a setting which allows quick visual comparison is a *good* thing.

Whether a heavy charge from a scale malfunction, or caused by a drastically smaller-capacity case, or a combination of the two, or caused by some other error, getting a stuck bolt is pretty extreme.
 
#24
Re: Got to see what real over-pressure looks like ...

It is probably the off piece of brass. Another possibility is that temps are starting to change. It is about 25 degrees warmer here than it was 3 weeks ago. I don't know about NC. 4064 is notoriously temperature sensitive. If the load was worked up during the Winter, even if it was safe, the increased temps might have nudged it into the "unsafe" column. Still, the most likely culprit is the off piece of brass.

You can get away with changing up bullet lots for a given load, but that is about it. Changing primer lots, powder lots, and brands of brass requires a new workup to be safe. You just can't take this stuff for granted. Your eyesight isn't worth it.

Changing brass lots, I would check first, but you are likely OK there, but brass brands is a whole different ball game. Case capacity varies widely.
 
#25
Re: Got to see what real over-pressure looks like ...

Ouch!! The guy said that he made a mistake and he realized the danger of the mistake.

Some people are looking to bash people all over the place for not being perfect! Everyone is a student of the science and I dont see a need for hammering someone who admittedly made a mistake.

+1 for all the positive suggestions for future avoidance of the same problem.

-1 for all the Bashers!
 
#26
Re: Got to see what real over-pressure looks like ...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Unsichtbar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I bought a old scale at a gun schow for $25. and had Scott rod rod it, he sells the also, please see below. The link below is a set up with a straw in a powder despensor and a set up to increase speed of production.

http://shootingsoftware.com/smallprojects.htm


"Scott Parker can modify balance beam scales to enhance sensitivity and more importantly, repeatability. Scott tells us: "You can literally count kernels with these scales--after tuning, the scales typically gain a half order of magnitude in sensitivity and a full order of magnitude in repeatability. Outside of a $250+ laboratory scale, a tuned beam scale is the most accurate and precise balance you can buy. I have tuned several 10-10s. They all have turned out very sensitive, consistent and hold linearity like a dream. The sensitivity after tuning is such that one kernel of powder registers a poise beam deflection. For repeatability, I remove the pan and replace it for the zero 10 times. The zero line and the poise beam balance line must coincide for each of those 10 tries. I then set the poises to read 250.0 grains. I remove and replace the pan 10 times with the calibration weight. For repeatability, the poise beam balance line must return to that same balance point ten times. I then adjust the poises back to zero and recheck the zero. A report is generated detailing the initial inspection of the balance, the corrective actions performed and any remaining concerns. I sell Ohaus type 10-10 and model 5-10 scales for $70.00 + shipping. I can also modify your existing 5-10 or 10-10 scales for $20.00 + shipping. Email me at [email protected] or call (661) 364-1199." </div></div>


+1 on Scott Parker.

I am pretty new to this game, but received advice about having Scott tune a scale early on. I sent him my uncle's old 1970s OHaus scale for him to tune. So much easier and more accurate to use than messing with a digital scale, at least for me. Very reasonably priced too.
 
#27
Re: Got to see what real over-pressure looks like ...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Some people are looking to bash people all over the place for not being perfect! Everyone is a student of the science and I dont see a need for hammering someone who admittedly made a mistake</div></div>

I don't think anyone is hammering him for making a mistake. Instead, I think people are commenting simply because he chose to blame the powder scale.
 
#28
Re: Got to see what real over-pressure looks like ...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">4064 is notoriously temperature sensitive. </div></div>
Says who, and compared to what other powders?

Almost any spherical powder is going to be more temp sensitive than 4064. WW-748, specifically in .308 with the 168 SMK, is fully twice as temperature sensitive.

More sensitive than Hodgdon's "Extreme" line, yes. Worse than others, no.

The down side is that the stick powders typically burn hotter and erode the throat faster. You win some, you lose others.
 
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