Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

[.sk.]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

.

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[g5]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

The machined surfaces look great.

 

[Jerkface11]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: .sk.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.

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I'm not getting what the top picture is.

 

[g5]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

Looks like the left side of the receiver with bolt in place.

 

[esromvre]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

SK

I use a HTR in 338LM by the numbers mine was made long before yours.

I have to ask you who did the bedding of that replacement stock?

yes the recoil lug looks to be correct for this system However is it possable that the lug was not properly sucured into the bedding Leaving a gap between it and the stock?

I noted by the sheir of the bolts and your comment that it came stright back I belive that you said one centimeter in the stock. correct me if I am wrong on this.

I have had some extractor issues with mine however HS Precision was top knoch on working to correct the problem. The people there are friends of mine and STAND UP people.

I see your delema. It is not hard with the pics. keep tring to work with them... From my experinces with them they stand up if there is a problem and I still do take Stocks into them for repairs. Was just in there on Monday.

Just for my peice of mind could you take a pic of the area in the stock where the recoil lug sits in the stock?

pm them to me or post them on here and pm me so I can see them.

 

[Jerkface11]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: g5</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Looks like the left side of the receiver with bolt in place. </div></div>
Oh ok I was seeing the bolt as a concave surface.

 

[.sk.]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: esromvre</div><div class="ubbcode-body">SK

I use a HTR in 338LM by the numbers mine was made long before yours.

I have to ask you who did the bedding of that replacement stock?

yes the recoil lug looks to be correct for this system However is it possable that the lug was not properly sucured into the bedding Leaving a gap between it and the stock?

I noted by the sheir of the bolts and your comment that it came stright back I belive that you said one centimeter in the stock. correct me if I am wrong on this.

I have had some extractor issues with mine however HS Precision was top knoch on working to correct the problem. The people there are friends of mine and STAND UP people.

I see your delema. It is not hard with the pics. keep tring to work with them... From my experinces with them they stand up if there is a problem and I still do take Stocks into them for repairs. Was just in there on Monday.

Just for my peice of mind could you take a pic of the area in the stock where the recoil lug sits in the stock?

pm them to me or post them on here and pm me so I can see them. </div></div>


For HS precision rifles a groove for the recoil lug in AISC stock usually expands.
Bedding was done at gunsmith. New photos a little later.

After firing a piece of action moved straight backwards on one cm.
It was cut bolts and aluminium backdrop of bolt handle on AISC.

In RF there were problems with the extractors on other HS precision rifles, Rockwell hardness of all extractors was different, for us change nobody has done, the guys bought new, now everyone has a spare extractors

 

[.sk.]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

.

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[misterp36]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

looks like the AICS chassis has got pretty well torn up by the bolt handle, i'd say the shooter was lucky it didn't come further back!

 

[.sk.]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

Yes, AICS had saved the person.

For today, HS precision representatives in RF, have all that they asked to provide.
They say that all the information is transmitted to HS precision.

 

[ORD]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: .sk.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For today, HS precision representatives in RF, have all that they asked to provide.
They say that all the information is transmitted to HS precision. </div></div>

What did you provide the reps in the RF with for inspection (the actual receiver/parts? pics? witness statement? etc.)?

I am interested if there will be a first-hand inspection of the receiver/parts by HS Precision in the US (or their representatives) or specifically how they are handling this issue in terms of their process of investigation, inspection, testing, and so on?

 

[tomirwin]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

This is in response to the empire post on march 23

Accuracy international went into receivership in 2005 be cause they were insolvent, they owed a lot of money t o their bank and could not pay it back. At the same time there were pictures posted in a number of forums showing a barrel ruptured on an aw50. The weapon was not in a trial and was being used by a British military user. It is thought that a muumuu purpose round exploded in the barrel. The barrel is designed to withstand overpressure. in this case t he overpressure was excessive. The barrel ruptured in a fail safe manner, as designed. The user was not injured in any way
This had nothing to do with accuracy international going into administration.
Today accuracy international is financially sound and we are growing. We have a new range of products. All of our rifles built in the UK have to be proof tested with 2 proof rounds which are higher than the normal pressures. It might be an idea to do the same in the USA.

Tom Irwin
Director
Accuracy international

 

[tomirwin]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

Just a couple of corrections
It was in response to emouse post of march 23
It was a multi purpose round
Sorry but my iPad made the changes to my document
Tom irwin

 

[longshooter]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

Cold short, meaning brittle when cold, is a term used when considering the amount of phosphorus in iron, or the resultant steel product.

I'm not a metallurgist, but whenever I see something like that, then this is what comes to mind. It is a question to me, and is in my mind. I'm not making a statement.

Those boys do have on alot of clothes.

 

[300sniper]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: longshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cold short, meaning brittle when cold, is a term used when considering the amount of phosphorus in iron, or the resultant steel product.

I'm not a metallurgist, but whenever I see something like that, then this is what comes to mind. It is a question to me, and is in my mind. I'm not making a statement.

Those boys do have on alot of clothes. </div></div>

i asked about the temp when this happened and got this response:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: .sk.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
temperature was -10 °C
</div></div>

a properly manufactured rifle shouldn't come apart at -10°c (14°f if i did my math correct).

 

[.sk.]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

2 ORD
All that you have listed.
HS precision representatives have inspected the whole rifle, all parts. Was done many photos.
If necessary they have contact with the Scientific Research Institute of Steel and Alloys of the RF.
They agreed that this is a defect of metal.

2 TomIrwin
For today AI/AW is excellent rifle for hard exploitation.

 

[ORD]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: .sk.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">2 ORD
All that you have listed.
HS precision representatives have inspected the whole rifle, all parts. Was done many photos.
If necessary they have contact with the Scientific Research Institute of Steel and Alloys of the RF.
They agreed that this is a defect of metal.</div></div>

Thanks, .sk.! I appreciate the info and hope that HS continues to address the problems.

 

[longshooter]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: longshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cold short, meaning brittle when cold, is a term used when considering the amount of phosphorus in iron, or the resultant steel product.

I'm not a metallurgist, but whenever I see something like that, then this is what comes to mind. It is a question to me, and is in my mind. I'm not making a statement.

Those boys do have on alot of clothes. </div></div>

i asked about the temp when this happened and got this response:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: .sk.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
temperature was -10 °C
</div></div>

a properly manufactured rifle shouldn't come apart at -10°c (14°f if i did my math correct). </div></div>

And I have no clue as to the parameters (phosphorus content, or temp.).

 

[Badshot308]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

.sk.,now the HS Precision has examined the rifle, what was the cause of the marks on the receiver under the serial number. You stated it wasn't from a vise but that you would explain once HS Precision had looked at the rifle.

 

[.sk.]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

HS precision has not given an answer yet.

 

[oneshot onekill]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

I'm not trying to dispute anything here and this may have been covered already but I notice that in some of the pictures the faces of the break look nice and "in the white" like you would expect... and in others the faces of the break appear to have the black finish (like the exterior of the rifle) on them. You can even see scratches down to white on at least one of them. At first I thought it was just the angle but there are some pretty good pics and there looks to be differences from one to the next of the same part... Specifically the barrel. Even in the way the surface of the break looks... I'm probably crazy but that just struck me as odd.

 

[former naval person]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

oneshot...may have a really pertinent observation there...perhaps there was already a crack in the steel...and some of the finish was sucked down by capillary action. That would be a "stress riser".

 

[longshooter]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

Hey, the damaged area does look like it has some serious anomalies in the metal. Especially in the receiver o.d. area adjacent to the lower lug.

Put it in photo studio and blow it up about 4 times (No pun intended).

 

[High Binder]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: longshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Put it in photo studio and blow it up about 4 times (No pun intended). </div></div>


LMAO!

 

[cap2031]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: High Binder</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ECH</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">Im not a metallurgust</span> but it looks like the grain if the metal around the edges of the broken action in the third pic are all oriented as if it suffered a significant torque force. </div></div>

I can't believe I'm the only person with actual metallurgy classes under my belt to run across this thread. It's referred to as 'shear' and you can clearly see from the pictures that this action didn't shear off, i.e. no "torque" at play here. My guess from the pics would be bad stock (for example:'bad castings/bar' stock not rifle 'stock'). Have to also keep in mind that a small crack that perhaps developed around a hole, poor heat treatment, a 'ding' and/or an inconsistent coupling force could have quickly (milli-seconds) traveled causing this failure. Without getting hands on it, there's just no way to know which makes all of our posts akin to speculation. Hope that was layman enough.

P.S. I see a lot of posts referring to the cold making the metal more brittle which is true but it's not the real issue. The cold could have sped up the failure but the weakness would have already existed and it would have just been a matter of time before it let go. In short the cold isn't an issue and doesn't really become a factor until this type of steal is subjected to MUCH colder temps, temps really only available in labs/industrial shops etc...</div></div>

+1

I'm trained in ASM failure Analysis and agree 100%!

 

[callen3615]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

In soviet russia gun shoots you!

Sorry I couldnt resist. I hope you get ahold of HS precision and get reimbursed. And I am glad to see no one was hurt.

 

[longshooter]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

I would be delighted to see the "metallurgists", those that are speaking here, to chime in and expand on "cold short", and offer us some insight as to it's characteristics.

 

[cap2031]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

I'm not a metallurgist...just trained in failure analysis, big difference. My expertise resides in aluminum (aerospace heat treating), welding, chemical processing, castings, machining processes, and manufacturing engineering, and making manufacturing process more capable, robust, etc. I can diagnose and point to failures and causes of failures and disposition problems for corrective actions and heat treating etc.

But I need the part in my hands and apply some tools to get more information. Scopes, SEM, hardness, etc. Then I usually consult a metallurgist for disposition or just backing.

Pictures always result in missing clues.

 

[XxMerlinxX]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

Standing by for some sort of response from HS Precision. I'm about to pull the trigger on a PST093, but this doesn't instil much confidence if this is how they treat their customers.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

I'm also not a metalurgist, but I have studied metal and failure analysis. I can't see an obvious origin of fracture from the photos and I also don't see good chevrons pointing toward it. What I do see is a CLASSIC brittle tensile failure. Note that one side of the break has a convex shape and the other is concave. This is the classic "ball and socket" form of a tensile failure. The fact there is no sign of metal deformation indicates a "brittle" failure - which is not to say the material was too hard, just that the material failed with no deformation.

Hard to venture a legit guess, but a material defect seems likely.

For future reference: in cases of material failures, if you want to study them, DO NOT PUT THE PIECES BACK TOGETHER, and don't let them corrode. Pristine failed parts studied under an SEM reveal all.

 

[border_reiver]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tomirwin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is in response to the empire post on march 23

Accuracy international went into receivership in 2005 be cause they were insolvent, they owed a lot of money t o their bank and could not pay it back. At the same time there were pictures posted in a number of forums showing a barrel ruptured on an aw50. The weapon was not in a trial and was being used by a British military user. It is thought that a muumuu purpose round exploded in the barrel. The barrel is designed to withstand overpressure. in this case t he overpressure was excessive. The barrel ruptured in a fail safe manner, as designed. The user was not injured in any way
This had nothing to do with accuracy international going into administration.
Today accuracy international is financially sound and we are growing. We have a new range of products. All of our rifles built in the UK have to be proof tested with 2 proof rounds which are higher than the normal pressures. It might be an idea to do the same in the USA.

Tom Irwin
Director
Accuracy international </div></div>

Tom, the rifle had a number of rounds thru, I believe he said less than 1000 rounds. That's quite a few for the Lapua cartridge, so I'm not sure we would have seen much in the proof rounds either. Maybe. For all the good proof rounds do, I doubt Birmingham sets up high speed video or magnafluxes parts to detect cracks or venting in the wrong areas. On 338 Lapua, which is overpressured to begin with, that proof round is vicious. As you and your extractors well know, haha.

Was this sent as a complete HS rifle? I'm curious b/c they usually send a 3 shot group photo with some load and velocity data when they tested in their ballistic lab.

I don't know about the 338LM actions, but 17-4 was the action material used by HS for their 2000 series rifles back in the day.

JR

 

[mp5sd/n/k]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

If I was asked to comment and to make an educated guess by one of my clients, I would have to say from the photographic evidence that this looks like a classic hydrogen embrittlement failure. I have seen this type of failure before. Some of the tell tale signs are the micro cracking and the signs of some type of chemical infiltrations into the metal via the grain boundaries. Look at the three half moon shaped dark spots in the freshly cracked surface.
I would bet that under microscopic analysis using an optical microscope or if need be a (SEM) Scanning electron microscope you would see micro cracking along the grain boundaries.
With the fracture initiation point emanating from the three half moon dark spots
and radiating around the tube to an endpoint that can be seen through observation.

Look up "Hydrogen embrittlement" and see how it interacts and impacts the longevity of high yield metals.

But with that said, I would still need the item In my lab for a full analysis before I would sign my name on any type of Failure report.

Best of luck

 

[turbo54]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

I hadn't noticed that picture. Those 3 dark half moons clearly look like fracture origins. Interestingly, there are 3. A "simple" overload failure will often only have one. I am somewhat familiar with Hydrogen embrittlement, but don't know how it could have happened in this case. I have good experience with the heat treatment of 17-4 stainless, and it's simply a soak at 900*F with a forced air (fans) quench. Produces 41 or 42 Rc and 175ksi, which come to think of it, seems pretty weak for the 338LM application.

 

[Stonewall2]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

The Firearm Blog


No word from H.S. on this ?

Stonewall

 

[g5]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

Very interesting photo and link, Stonewall.

 

[Lofty]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

It's nice to see some people who obviously know their shit on metallurgy weigh in on this thread.

The naysayers and poo pooers have gotten quite.

 

[Jerkface11]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

This thread makes me want to magnaflux all my rifles.

 

[oneshot onekill]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

When you look at the pictures in Stonewall's link it appears pretty obvious that Nagant was cracked more than halfway through for quite some time. It actually appears corroded. The HS in question doesn't have that obvious previous crack.

 

[border_reiver]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

I'm just throwing things at the wall on this, as the rifle isn't here for me to inspect. But say this inletting/bedding job on the stock isn't so good. You'd have to inlet the recoil lug portion, open it up to fit the thicker lug. Say you didn't also machine the lugwell deep enough, and the lug was bottoming out on the metalwork of the stock. So now you you crank the action screws to 65lb/in but the receiver is now flexed. You're now shooting a stressed-flexed action. Would it be weaker at the top near the scope screws than at the stock clamp point? Perhaps..

Like I said, just throwing things at the wall..

JR

 

[Stonewall2]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

It just seemed quite strange after reading about the H.S. "great problem" rifle that I then found that link and photo with the same apparent damage .

Jim Borden's observations -comments would be extremely interesting on this .338 Lapua set up .

H.S. really should contact the owner on this.
Better late than never.

Fortunately no one got hurt.


Intelligent discussion with knowledgeable people make this a learning experiance not a "catfight".



Glenn

 

[Jerkface11]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

Because the mosin was in storage for decades after it cracked. The rifle in the OP probably cracked and came apart on the same day.

 

[mp5sd/n/k]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

The problem is that this could just be a simple case of poorly manufactured bar stock. And if the manufacture of the action doesn't have some type of a Material analysis or assessment protocol for the metal stock prior to manufacturing. Then they will know very little about the stock material, other than it's somewhat ................ hard and heavy.

The most basic questions would have to be answered, like does this material meet the ASTM standards. What is its hardness and grade and was this material annealed and then harden again and what type of atmosphere was this performed in. There are a number of avenues that would have to be explored in order to come up with the total picture of what the failure mechanisms were.

FYI

Reference material.

This is an excerpt from WebCorr. web site about HE, And I quote:


Hydrogen Embrittlement (HE)
 

What is hydrogen embrittlement? Hydrogen embrittlement (HE) is a process resulting in a decrease of the toughness or ductility of a metal due to the presence of atomic hydrogen. Hydrogen embrittlement has been recognized classically as being of two types. The first, known as internal hydrogen embrittlement, occurs when the hydrogen enters molten metal which becomes supersaturated with hydrogen immediately after solidification. The second type, environmental hydrogen embrittlement, results from hydrogen being absorbed by solid metals. This can occur during elevated-temperature thermal treatments and in service during electroplating, contact with maintenance chemicals, corrosion reactions, cathodic protection, and operating in high-pressure hydrogen.
 

What causes hydrogen embrittlement? In the absence of residual stress or external loading, environmental hydrogen embrittlement is manifested in various forms, such as blistering, internal cracking, hydride formation, and reduced ductility. With a tensile stress or stress-intensity factor exceeding a specific threshold, the atomic hydrogen interacts with the metal to induce subcritical crack growth leading to fracture. In the absence of a corrosion reaction (polarized cathodically), the usual term used is hydrogen-assisted cracking (HAC) or hydrogen stress cracking (HSC). In the presence of active corrosion, usually as pits or crevices (polarized anodically), the cracking is generally called stress-corrosion cracking (SCC), but should more properly be called hydrogen-assisted stress-corrosion cracking (HSCC). Thus, HSC and electrochemically anodic SCC can operate separately or in combination (HSCC). In some metals, such as highs-strength steels, the mechanism is believed to be all, or nearly all, HSC. The participating mechanism of HSC is not always recognized and may be evaluated under the generic heading of SCC.




Thank you

 

[longshooter]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

Can anyone determine what it was that stopped the rearward motion of the action and it's components?

What I mean is, the shooter almost had a face full of everything behind the chamber.

There are a number of things that saved the day.

What is the biggest thing?

 

[mp5sd/n/k]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

Well LS,

To your question about, what was the biggest thing that saved the day........... I would say DUMB LUCK!!!!!

But with the magazine making contact with the receiver and the trigger group making contact with the stock. And any bolts that sheared at the moment of failure( action or scope mount hardware), all absorbed some amount of the rearward energy that was being released during the event. All of these events helped in the injury mitigation in regard to the shooter.

Thank you

 

[Badshot308]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

It looks like the bolt handle being cammed down, took a large portion of the rearward force as well. It sheared off a large piece of aluminum from the chassis. I have to wonder what would have happened if this event would have taken place in a fiberglass stock.

 

[mp5sd/n/k]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

BS308,

You are correct. I didn't include that in my last list, that would also have taken a proportion of the load as well during the failure.

That's why a true analysis of this failure is hard to do, just by looking at a few pictures. As I said before, you need the item in your possession for a proper analysis to be performed.

Good eye

Thank you

 

[Turk]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

I got a watch from Russia once and it broke in a couple of days. Tried contacting the manufacturer; no reply yet!

 

[Jerkface11]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: longshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can anyone determine what it was that stopped the rearward motion of the action and it's components?

What I mean is, the shooter almost had a face full of everything behind the chamber.

There are a number of things that saved the day.

What is the biggest thing?
</div></div>

I'd say the biggest thing was the bolthandle acting as an emergency locking lug.

 

[dallas320i]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Turk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I got a watch from Russia once and it broke in a couple of days. Tried contacting the manufacturer; no reply yet! </div></div>Fortunately a usual watch can't make any lethal situation.

 

[Turk]

Re: Great problem with the H-S Precision rifle.

It can if you count on it!