Guessing this is why Marines are giving up armor......

[pmclaine]

Probably seen the vids from Armenia/Azerbaijan.

Drones with relatively cheap missiles have taken the armor advantage away.

Tactics are changing.

I think tunnel boring and WWI tactics may be back in vogue.

Turkey accused of deploying F-16 jets in Azerbaijan-Armenia conflict

Armenian separatists claim they were attacked by Turkish mercenaries and F-16 fighter jets in the disputed Nagorno-Karabakh region, which belongs to Azerbaijan but is inhabited by Armenians.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Does NATO Brussels realize a member is at war?

 

[W54/XM-388]

I guess one Armenian genocide wasn't enough and the Turks would like to see if they can get away with round 2?

 

[Doc68]

Top armor is always weakest. Day of the tank has been over for years now. It's not the king anymore. All of our anti tank missiles are top attack. The TOW along with the Javelin attack from the top. You can have all the frontal side and rear armor, but if the top is only an inch thick, you're fucked.

 

[Aries256]

Probably seen the vids from Armenia/Azerbaijan.

Drones with relatively cheap missiles have taken the armor advantage away.

Tactics are changing.

I think tunnel boring and WWI tactics may be back in vogue.

Turkey accused of deploying F-16 jets in Azerbaijan-Armenia conflict

Armenian separatists claim they were attacked by Turkish mercenaries and F-16 fighter jets in the disputed Nagorno-Karabakh region, which belongs to Azerbaijan but is inhabited by Armenians.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Does NATO Brussels realize a member is at war?

Why the hell are moslem flith in possession of F-16’s

 

[W54/XM-388]

Why the hell are moslem flith in possession of F-16’s

Because the USA MIC must be fed very well...

All the "friendly" Muslims have those courtesy of us.
Supposedly the Israeli ones are "better"

 

[Mr.BR]

Top armor is always weakest. Day of the tank has been over for years now. It's not the king anymore. All of our anti tank missiles are top attack. The TOW along with the Javelin attack from the top. You can have all the frontal side and rear armor, but if the top is only an inch thick, you're fucked.

The tank is still king on the battlefield, these drones can only really operate in permissive environments , particularly in such border skirmishes where the attacker chooses time and place at leisure.In full blown peer war these drones and many air assets would be shot down(or have airfields destroyed) early into the fight then its up to armor and artillery to push trough.

Tech evolves ,tanks will be fielding more and more active protection systems to counter the missile threats, Soviets already fielded hardkill APS in Afghan war , nowadays Israelis lead the field but just about every major player in tank building offers some form of APS. The US is now fielding Israeli Systems on M1 , the Chinese have own systems as do Germans,Turks,Russians,Ukrainans ,Koreans.......

 

[Huskydriver]

Two words: Air Superiority

Armor has ALWAYS been at the mercy of who controls the air this is nothing new

 

[army_eod]

Good thread

 

[Sean the Nailer]

So, reactive armour layered with reactive armour with another layer of reactive armour won't work to counter the counter/counter/counter-counter redundant munitions designed for penetrating vanities? (I ran out of counters)

 

[LilGucci]

What about lazers. Can lazers even the battlefield? Israel is even tying smaller units to light off-road vehicles the size of a Wrangler. Maybe this an envoy of vehicles with lazers can protect against drones and their projectiles.

 

[Huskydriver]

Because the USA MIC must be fed very well...

All the "friendly" Muslims have those courtesy of us.
Supposedly the Israeli ones are "better"

Uh no the UAE's block 60 desert falcons have arguably the best F16s as far as full capability

 

[Defender3]

Didn't the Russians wipe out two Ukranian mechanized brigades? Used drones to locate them then used fuel-air munitions to kill them.

 

[308pirate]

The tank is still king on the battlefield, these drones can only really operate in permissive environments , particularly in such border skirmishes where the attacker chooses time and place at leisure.In full blown peer war these drones and many air assets would be shot down(or have airfields destroyed) early into the fight then its up to armor and artillery to push trough.

Tech evolves ,tanks will be fielding more and more active protection systems to counter the missile threats, Soviets already fielded hardkill APS in Afghan war , nowadays Israelis lead the field but just about every major player in tank building offers some form of APS. The US is now fielding Israeli Systems on M1 , the Chinese have own systems as do Germans,Turks,Russians,Ukrainans ,Koreans.......

Do tell where you expertise comes from, Herr Generalfeldmarschall

 

[XLR308]

Two words: Air Superiority

Armor has ALWAYS been at the mercy of who controls the air this is nothing new

I was a 19Kilo and thought the Abrams was pretty hot shit until I saw what an A10 will do to a tank.

 

[pmclaine]

Two words: Air Superiority

Armor has ALWAYS been at the mercy of who controls the air this is nothing new

Bring back the "Jug". Dont let the A-10 "Fade Away"..........

 

[W54/XM-388]

Uh no the UAE's block 60 desert falcons have arguably the best F16s as far as full capability

If that was correct, I guess it means we've told the Israelis that it's time to spends some of those billions a year we give them to upgrade to the F35...

 

[Huskydriver]

If that was correct, I guess it means we've told the Israelis that it's time to spends some of those billions a year we give them to upgrade to the F35...

We did... The Israeli's are the ONLY country outside the US to get their own fully spec F35 version the F35I with parts that are 100% made in Isreal

Edit... The UAE just recently recognized the legitimacy of Israel just in case you missed that in the slew of shit we call news...

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

What about lazers. Can lazers even the battlefield? Israel is even tying smaller units to light off-road vehicles the size of a Wrangler. Maybe this an envoy of vehicles with lazers can protect against drones and their projectiles.

IMO lasers still have a long way to go. From what Ive read, lasers wont have enough efficiency to be viable(especially against armor) for quite a while.

Though I suppose they could quite useful if targeting electro-optical systems and such.

 

[Doc68]

The tank is still king on the battlefield, these drones can only really operate in permissive environments , particularly in such border skirmishes where the attacker chooses time and place at leisure.In full blown peer war these drones and many air assets would be shot down(or have airfields destroyed) early into the fight then its up to armor and artillery to push trough.

Tech evolves ,tanks will be fielding more and more active protection systems to counter the missile threats, Soviets already fielded hardkill APS in Afghan war , nowadays Israelis lead the field but just about every major player in tank building offers some form of APS. The US is now fielding Israeli Systems on M1 , the Chinese have own systems as do Germans,Turks,Russians,Ukrainans ,Koreans.......

Sorry, but it's really not. Tops of tanks dont have reactive armor. If you have dismounted infantry near tanks they will be shreaded by reactive armor. You can plant 100lbs of HME in a road and kill a tank. Small drones, ones that we carry in a backpack can carry one of these munitions.

Tanks are obsolete in my opinion. Man portable missiles will kill them in a heartbeat. TOW missile have tandem warheads now also. First smaller warhead detonates to blow reactive armor, then second warhead kills the tank.

Doc

 

[Drew890]

The tank is still king on the battlefield....

Except that artillery is the King of Battle.
That Marine artillery battery taught the Russian mercenary battalion and their armored vehicles this lesson a few years ago In Syria.

 

[Bolo]

Meh. M1 is still the king... saw the immediate aftermath of one taking a 500lb aviation bomb rigged as an IED. Blew the tread off and peeled back a few layers of armor. Everyone walked out alive.

First step is do what they did with the Stryker and add some expanded steel mesh / bars a few inches away on top. HEAT defeated. Before the enemy can come up with a better plan..
Lasers are coming around.. we're not dealing with tank armor here, we're aiming at an incoming missile or drone with a plastic or thin aluminum skin. kW fiber lasers act like a ginsu on that stuff... IIRC, Army is already fielding a 4kW variant and (I heard but cannot confirm) were working on a fully mobile version on a Bradley platform.
We may see a return of two mostly dead MOSes.. Air Defense Artillery and EW Counterwarfare. Stinger was 70's tech, imagine how effective an compact a system could be, with today's tech and sized to take out a small prop-powered drone. That's already in the works.
All drones have a detectable EM signal... not only would it be easy to jam the C2, it makes it pretty easy to find the controller. Unless they're using SATCOM..
In which case, we have an X-37B on station. I bet a paycheck killing satellites is one of its mission roles. Get ready to take cover from falling space junk.
FWIW, there was a news article a couple weeks ago, a successful test of a new system shooting down a hypersonic projectile with a 155mm on a Paladin. That's an order of magnitude harder than detecting, tracking and smoking a 300mph drone.

 

[Victory]

If you put one type of weapon against another, you will always have something to defeat it. Our battle field isn’t just one weapon against another weapon though. A multitude of platforms from weapons, electronic counter measures, air power, to navel assets are deployed utilizing simultinaiety, depth, synchronization, and flexibility(never thought I would use those words in a convo outside of teaching Officers). We could say all day that tanks are obsolete due to top attack or drones, but on the modern battle field, they are still part of the depth used to create multiple dilemmas the enemy has to defeat. These boys aren’t a peer and I would have a hard time saying near peer. They are playing checkers with each other, and one just happened to have a hammer. The tank still has a place on the chess board in my opinion.

 

[Strykervet]

I don't know why this is surprising.

Or why it took 'em so long to catch onto it.

 

[Redmanss]

There is nothing expeditionary about a 70 ton vehicle. Good riddance.

 

[M8541Reaper]

Meh. M1 is still the king... saw the immediate aftermath of one taking a 500lb aviation bomb rigged as an IED. Blew the tread off and peeled back a few layers of armor. Everyone walked out alive.

It was either 05 or 06 when they took a 500# UXO, put it in the road, covered it in propane tanks, and a bunch of other stuff, then hit an Abrams. Blew the turret like 500’ away and killed everyone inside.

Tanks are great if you want to turn a building to rubble from ground level. Tanks a great if you’re going against infantry that don’t have AT equipment (unless you have Tom Hanks and Matt Dameon running around). Tanks are great if you want to watch your 5’2” 110# buddy get an instant no-touch dry and shove as he runs behind one. Other than that... it’s 2020. Amazon Prime the target with a gender reveal bomb and lets go home.

Does NATO Brussels realize a member is at war?

To be fair, it’s been raining here for the past few days and everyone isn’t really feeling like doing anything besides grabbing pastries and taking a long lunch. Maybe they’ll get around to it next month if COVID lets them.

 

[UpSideDown]

Does NATO Brussels realize a member is at war?

We've been on the brink of a shooting war with Turkey in Syria for years. They and their funded militias have been slaughtering the Kurds we were supposedly friends with. Fuck Turkey.

 

[Mr.BR]

We've been on the brink of a shooting war with Turkey in Syria for years. They and their funded militias have been slaughtering the Kurds we were supposedly friends with. Fuck Turkey.

Those same Kurd slaughtering militias where on US payroll a 2013-2017 out of total of 41 groups Turks are using 28 were part of the US programs Timber Sycamore and Train and Equip, before US cut the funding and Turks took over. Kurds are just another tribe of corrupt goatfuckers, lionising they get from the media is just good old fashioned propaganda.

Only good thing is Pentagon and CIA suck at training monkeys ........500 something Mio $ later


Things you think you know out of Syria are all propaganda.
https://thegrayzone.com/2020/09/23/syria-leaks-uk-contractors-opposition-media/

 

[RyanScott]

You guys think drones will be buzzing around unimpeded when the EW guys get to take all the safeties off? Cute.

 

[pmclaine]

We've been on the brink of a shooting war with Turkey in Syria for years. They and their funded militias have been slaughtering the Kurds we were supposedly friends with. Fuck Turkey.

We threw the Kurds under the bus and played kissy face with Erdogan about a year ago.

It was weird.

Seemed like a quick about face in policy.

I dont think we should be in the area in the first place but that abrupt change was weird.

 

[pmclaine]

Anyone talking about laser effectiveness has no experience with lasers. If you want to disrupt laser guidance, that might work great. But there is no laser that can be powered from a vehicle, or even from most static systems, that can cut through any appreciable amount of material. Maybe you could kill a guidance system if you got lucky. When industrial lasers of the 3KW range are cutting through 3/4" steel with a focal distance of 4 inches, with the application of cutting oxygen, that works great. Now shoot that same laser over several miles, at a fast moving target with a constantly changing focal distance, with mirage and all the deficits of optics, and you aren't doing jack. If you could even physically put a light transmission through the mirage at the thing you're aiming at, the beam would be so large a diameter and so scattered by atmosphere that it wouldn't cut. Planes are slower but it's the same thing. It isn't where you're aiming.

but what if they use Schott glass.....

 

[pmclaine]

Except that artillery is the King of Battle.
That Marine artillery battery taught the Russian mercenary battalion and their armored vehicles this lesson a few years ago In Syria.

Seems Marines are placing emphasis on HIMARS in the future org.

The circle of history....

 

[Doc68]

You guys think drones will be buzzing around unimpeded when the EW guys get to take all the safeties off? Cute.

First hand experience in afghanistan, when radio and cell signals dont work they adapt


Pressure plates and command wires.......

 

[Mr.BR]

Sorry, but it's really not. Tops of tanks dont have reactive armor. If you have dismounted infantry near tanks they will be shreaded by reactive armor. You can plant 100lbs of HME in a road and kill a tank. Small drones, ones that we carry in a backpack can carry one of these munitions.

Tanks are obsolete in my opinion. Man portable missiles will kill them in a heartbeat. TOW missile have tandem warheads now also. First smaller warhead detonates to blow reactive armor, then second warhead kills the tank.

Doc

Tank is absolute king of the battlefield,sure it can be destroyed like anything else but when used properly its an absolute beast.

If you used the same logic any helicopter is obsolete , they can be shot down by anything from an AK to SAM......................

As for armoring ,there are many ways to counter the missiles , from simple smokescreen(both visual and IR specter blinding) , optical and IR dazzlers to active hardkill and everything in between (ERA ,NERA etc)

Hardkill APS overview

Active protection systems (APS) have been an important topic when it comes to enhancing the protection of modern combat vehicles since a nu...

below-the-turret-ring.blogspot.com

Do tell where you expertise comes from, Herr Generalfeldmarschall

Happen to have pretty a useless Military science degree .

 

[Doc68]

Tank is absolute king of the battlefield sure it can be destroyed like anything else but when used properly its an absolute beast.

As for armoring ,there are many ways to counter the missiles , from simple smokescreen(both visual and IR specter blinding) , optical and IR dazzlers to active hardkill and everything in between (ERA ,NERA etc)

Hardkill APS overview

Active protection systems (APS) have been an important topic when it comes to enhancing the protection of modern combat vehicles since a nu...

below-the-turret-ring.blogspot.com

Like I said earlier. Guess infantry wont be around tanks anymore. They will be shredded by shrapnel......

 

[Mr.BR]

Except that artillery is the King of Battle.
That Marine artillery battery taught the Russian mercenary battalion and their armored vehicles this lesson a few years ago In Syria.

Artillery is Queen of the Battle

Fake news , the story was about an local arab warlords militia with some Russian mercs and not much in terms of armor , ended up as a turkey shoot but not due to the artillery but Airstrikes.

The way Marines use artillery now they would be all dead in minutes after they fired of a salvo, no shoot and scoot practiced by anyone in past 20 years .You can see how that works out in Ukraine where both sides practice counterbattery.

Without APCs and IFVs infantry fares poorly vs artillery, no matter how vulnerable the APCs and tanks are they generally protect against artillery shrapnel, you need armor with the infantry in any peer war.

 

[RyanScott]

First hand experience in afghanistan, when radio and cell signals dont work they adapt


Pressure plates and command wires.......

After the wireless signal that commands a drone leads to fire missions targeting the operator they’ll go to fire and forget drones, which will be vulnerable to GPS and target form factor spoofing, or to straight up being fried with directed energy weapons.

Artillery is Queen of the Battle

Fake news , the story was about an local arab warlords militia with some Russian mercs and not much in terms of armor , ended up as a turkey shoot but not due to the artillery but Airstrikes.

The way Marines use artillery now they would be all dead in minutes after they fired of a salvo, no shoot and scoot practiced by anyone in past 20 years .You can see how that works out in Ukraine where both sides practice counterbattery.

Without APCs and IFVs infantry fares poorly vs artillery, no matter how vulnerable the APCs and tanks are they generally protect against artillery shrapnel, you need armor with the infantry in any peer war.

I know some US rocket artillerymen. They certainly practice shooting and scooting. USMC is procuring fiber optics to transmit target sets to prevent detection by enemy EW assets.

And you got it wrong. Artillery is the God of War. We forget that because we are a rich nation.

USMC is mounting anti ship missiles on HIMARs to make pockets through island chains that will hurt the Chinese. It’s brilliant.

 

[Bolo]

Anyone talking about laser effectiveness has no experience with lasers. If you want to disrupt laser guidance, that might work great. But there is no laser that can be powered from a vehicle, or even from most static systems, that can cut through any appreciable amount of material. Maybe you could kill a guidance system if you got lucky. When industrial lasers of the 3KW range are cutting through 3/4" steel with a focal distance of 4 inches, with the application of cutting oxygen, that works great. Now shoot that same laser over several miles, at a fast moving target with a constantly changing focal distance, with mirage and all the deficits of optics, and you aren't doing jack. If you could even physically put a light transmission through the mirage at the thing you're aiming at, the beam would be so large a diameter and so scattered by atmosphere that it wouldn't cut. Planes are slower but it's the same thing. It isn't where you're aiming.

Oh, so the MEHEL system and its perfect 12/12 record smoking drones is fake news?
Yes, I used industrial CO2 lasers before. '70s tech. They have very little in common with cutting edge solid state fiber lasers and their control systems. Even modern industrial fiber lasers are a different beast- they're typically multimode instead of singlemode, a much lower beam quality (BPP around 4) and opt for optical beam control over the much more expensive electronic control. Mil lasers have very little wavelength deviation, nanosecond pulse controls and a beam quality near 1 (perfect). That results in better than 95% power on target at 2 miles (and that was on the older Navy LaWS system).

You're correct about the mirage. The simple fix that most of these high power laser systems use is to fire a short pulse at a slightly lower power first, heating the air along the beam path. It creates a superheated 'tunnel' with consistent optical properties for the main pulse to ride down, minimizing diffusion. We've had that technique down since 1998 and I'm speaking from first-hand experience.

Change in target distance means jack to the focal point in this case. You're creating a coherent light source, that when properly combined (fiber) has a focal distance of infinity. Given that even a hypersonic missile is a couple orders of magnitude slower than the speed of light, the change in beamwidth between start of the pulse and target down is so negligible, it's not even calculated in.

 

[Sean the Nailer]

It was either 05 or 06 when they took a 500# UXO, put it in the road, covered it in propane tanks, and a bunch of other stuff, then hit an Abrams. Blew the turret like 500’ away and killed everyone inside.

Tanks are great if you want to turn a building to rubble from ground level. Tanks a great if you’re going against infantry that don’t have AT equipment (unless you have Tom Hanks and Matt Dameon running around). Tanks are great if you want to watch your 5’2” 110# buddy get an instant no-touch dry and shove as he runs behind one. Other than that... it’s 2020. Amazon Prime the target with a gender reveal bomb and lets go home.

To be fair, it’s been raining here for the past few days and everyone isn’t really feeling like doing anything besides grabbing pastries and taking a long lunch. Maybe they’ll get around to it next month if COVID lets them.

OK, I'll bite. This is not a challenge, this is simply a question. (Not all of us are Tankologists,,,,) So, that being said, what in the HELL is:

"Tanks are great if you want to watch your 5'2" 110# buddy get an instant no-touch dry and shove as he runs behind one."

?????

 

[RyanScott]

The Abrams is turbine powered and the exhaust gases are literally from a jet engine.

It makes them quiet. It makes them thirsty. It gives them the thermal signature of an open gas flame.

 

[M8541Reaper]

OK, I'll bite. This is not a challenge, this is simply a question. (Not all of us are Tankologists,,,,) So, that being said, what in the HELL is:

"Tanks are great if you want to watch your 5'2" 110# buddy get an instant no-touch dry and shove as he runs behind one."

?????

Homeboy ran a bit too close to the ass (exhaust) and it was hilarious. Best New Year’s Eve present ever...that and the best display of fireworks as well.

 

[pmclaine]

The way Marines use artillery now they would be all dead in minutes after they fired of a salvo, no shoot and scoot practiced by anyone in past 20 years .You can see how that works out in Ukraine where both sides practice counterbattery.

Did you see the wheels on the HIMARS?

A little side track here....

While searching for that picture of the Iwo Jima rocket trucks I came across this...

“The Rocket Man of Iwo Jima”

by Patricia Hamilton _ I was born fifteen years after WWII ended. As a child I knew that my father had served as a Marine during the war and that he had been awarded the Bronze Star with the ‘V’ De…

militaryexperience.org

In this video....



at about the 46 second mark is the scene he describes in the interview of having to jump into a crater, boots in the air, as the counter rocket spigot mortar comes in killing the camera man and the man on the stretcher.


Louis A. Hamilton needs to have his name said......

 

[pmclaine]

USMC is mounting anti ship missiles on HIMARs to make pockets through island chains that will hurt the Chinese. It’s brilliant.

Didnt they bring a HIMAR on the deck of a ship and fire a mission?

 

[UpSideDown]

Oh, so the MEHEL system and its perfect 12/12 record smoking drones is fake news?
Yes, I used industrial CO2 lasers before. '70s tech. They have very little in common with cutting edge solid state fiber lasers and their control systems. Even modern industrial fiber lasers are a different beast- they're typically multimode instead of singlemode, a much lower beam quality (BPP around 4) and opt for optical beam control over the much more expensive electronic control. Mil lasers have very little wavelength deviation, nanosecond pulse controls and a beam quality near 1 (perfect). That results in better than 95% power on target at 2 miles (and that was on the older Navy LaWS system).

You're correct about the mirage. The simple fix that most of these high power laser systems use is to fire a short pulse at a slightly lower power first, heating the air along the beam path. It creates a superheated 'tunnel' with consistent optical properties for the main pulse to ride down, minimizing diffusion. We've had that technique down since 1998 and I'm speaking from first-hand experience.

Change in target distance means jack to the focal point in this case. You're creating a coherent light source, that when properly combined (fiber) has a focal distance of infinity. Given that even a hypersonic missile is a couple orders of magnitude slower than the speed of light, the change in beamwidth between start of the pulse and target down is so negligible, it's not even calculated in.

I’m specifically talking about fiber lasers. I can see what you’re describing working well. So they’re claiming 50KW lasers? And how are they powering these?

 

[Ravenworks]

Anyone talking about laser effectiveness has no experience with lasers. If you want to disrupt laser guidance, that might work great. But there is no laser that can be powered from a vehicle, or even from most static systems, that can cut through any appreciable amount of material. Maybe you could kill a guidance system if you got lucky. When industrial lasers of the 3KW range are cutting through 3/4" steel with a focal distance of 4 inches, with the application of cutting oxygen, that works great. Now shoot that same laser over several miles, at a fast moving target with a constantly changing focal distance, with mirage and all the deficits of optics, and you aren't doing jack. If you could even physically put a light transmission through the mirage at the thing you're aiming at, the beam would be so large a diameter and so scattered by atmosphere that it wouldn't cut. Planes are slower but it's the same thing. It isn't where you're aiming.

Tell it to the Navy, they seem to like lasers

 

[RyanScott]

Didnt they bring a HIMAR on the deck of a ship and fire a mission?

Yes, and there are proposals to put the same ship to ship missiles on the MkVI patrol boat or other small boats.

 

[roostercogburn98]

Underestimation is our killer as a combat force. They don’t need high tech gear to get results. The theory of “some desert dwelling goat humper can’t beat us” mindset will always leave us vulnerable and playing catch-up.
The RPG-29 Vampir, and multi array EFPs also make short work of side armor. Modern armor on the battlefield is and always will be vulnerable, but they are a force multiplier in a fight. Anyone who has had one come to their assistance will testify to this.
This BFV was completely destroyed by 2-3 pounds of explosives and some fuel that went off underneath it.

 

[RyanScott]

What’s interesting to me is that if the enemy can kill a vehicle people declare it useless. They would shit if they saw an attrition table from Cold War planning exercises.

 

[Romeo458]

On the tunnel aspect.

Army Is Spending Half a Billion to Train Soldiers to Fight Underground

The Army is training and equipping 26 of its 31 combat brigades for subterranean warfare.

www.military.com

 

[woogie_man]

Top armor is always weakest. Day of the tank has been over for years now. It's not the king anymore. All of our anti tank missiles are top attack. The TOW along with the Javelin attack from the top. You can have all the frontal side and rear armor, but if the top is only an inch thick, you're fucked.

Same with the underside of them. Have seen quite a few "armored" vehicles totally fucked by a well placed IED.

 

[Mr.BR]

Probably seen the vids from Armenia/Azerbaijan.

Drones with relatively cheap missiles have taken the armor advantage away.

Tactics are changing.

I think tunnel boring and WWI tactics may be back in vogue.

Turkey accused of deploying F-16 jets in Azerbaijan-Armenia conflict

Armenian separatists claim they were attacked by Turkish mercenaries and F-16 fighter jets in the disputed Nagorno-Karabakh region, which belongs to Azerbaijan but is inhabited by Armenians.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Does NATO Brussels realize a member is at war?

Turks are involved in many wars(Syria.Libya,Irak,Somalia,Mali) and near wars these days all on Qatari dime ,while Turk economy is in a dire state.Turk currency just hit new low

Armenia/Azerbaijan still shooting at each other , but both careful not to escalate beyond border flareups.

Saracens(Azerbajanis) vs Christians , historically in Armenian- Azeri conflicts , Saracens tend to get slaughtered even when numerically and technically superior.

Both militaries are about matches in manpower, in the past spat, the Azeris had double the amount of heavy artillery, armored vehicles, and tanks than the Armenians; but when it was over, the Azeri body count was three times higher then that of the Armenians. Azeri casualties stood at 17,000. The Armenians only lost 6,000. And that’s not even counting the remaining Azeri civilians the Armenians ethnically cleansed.

Azerbajan had caused considerably losses to Armenians early on with drones, but as drones got blown from the skies the Armenian ATGMs and minefields wrecked the Armored push by Azerbaijan so considerable loses on both sides but no breakthrough on any front.