GUI Interfaces on Future Kestrel Ballistics Units

[lomarx]

All,

First off...this is in no way a knock on Kestrel Ballistic Calculators. Hands down these are the best devices period for serious shooters.

My question revolves around future User Interface upgrades to the Kestrel Ballistic Line. The Current User Interface is getting a bit old in the tooth and I know it works well (Black text on light background) in varied hunting, shooting and tactical conditions but is not "modern" in the sense that in 2021 interfaces are for the most part all in color and consumers also expect a modern GUI (Graphical User Interface) with associated graphics etc.

So with that being the case does anyone know at a high level what types of GUI Interface upgrades we can expect in the near future on the Kestrel line of Ballistic Calculators? This is a valid business and future revenue generation question for Kestrel as well as there are literally thousands of new long range shooters who have joined the ranks in the past 2 years and most of these new long range shooters and hunters are not old school guys who are content with black text on a white background on a rather expensive device. These new long range shooters skew younger and have gotten used to modern GUI's on their Android or IPhones and will have a hard time justifying paying for a device that does not have a similar GUI.

This question is related to the Kestrel Ballistic Units but can apply to any of the Kestrel Weather, Fire, Heat Stress, or Agriculture units. They all use the same Interface.

 

[_Windrider_]

All,

First off...this is in no way a knock on Kestrel Ballistic Calculators. Hands down these are the best devices period for serious shooters.

My question revolves around future User Interface upgrades to the Kestrel Ballistic Line. The Current User Interface is getting a bit old in the tooth and I know it works well (Black text on light background) in varied hunting, shooting and tactical conditions but is not "modern" in the sense that in 2021 interfaces are for the most part all in color and consumers also expect a modern GUI (Graphical User Interface) with associated graphics etc.

So with that being the case does anyone know at a high level what types of GUI Interface upgrades we can expect in the near future on the Kestrel line of Ballistic Calculators? This is a valid business and future revenue generation question for Kestrel as well as there are literally thousands of new long range shooters who have joined the ranks in the past 2 years and most of these new long range shooters and hunters are not old school guys who are content with black text on a white background on a rather expensive device. These new long range shooters skew younger and have gotten used to modern GUI's on their Android or IPhones and will have a hard time justifying paying for a device that does not have a similar GUI.

This question is related to the Kestrel Ballistic Units but can apply to any of the Kestrel Weather, Fire, Heat Stress, or Agriculture units. They all use the same Interface.

Personally I don’t want the GUI type touch screens. I want simple easy to manipulate buttons that can be done in cold weather. This helps keep them small and compact. What I do want is more compatibility

 

[Huskydriver]

It has the nokia snake game now what more could you possibly need?!

 

[lomarx]

Personally I don’t want the GUI type touch screens. I want simple easy to manipulate buttons that can be done in cold weather. This helps keep them small and compact. What I do want is more compatibility

Similar conversations ensued when Garmin introduced the Montana Series of GPS units a couple of years back. The Montana had a full Touch Screen versus the Buttons that are on the Garmin GPSMap Series and the traditionalists said the Garmin Montana (at a higher price point than the GPSMap series) would be a failure yet the Montana has done well for Garmin.

One other note on Garmin..the GPSMap devices use buttons but have modern color GUI's that are easy to read in any type of condition. So it is possible to have devices with backlit color GUI screens with buttons...

 

[slowworm]

^^^^

Battery life. You aren't going to get all that on one AA with any life. Batteries are heavy. The Montana GPS unit is heavy because of the battery. Also, mapping apps really do benefit from the display. Ballistics data, much less so.

Also, large screens are fragile, and large color screens even more so. At it's price point the kestrel is pretty robust.

The market you are looking for would better be served by an app that links a kestrel for weather and a rangefinder. Strelok pro is close, but only links to terrapin, but will link to a kestrel for weather. If there were more rangefinder options it would be perfect.

 

[lomarx]

^^^^

Battery life. You aren't going to get all that on one AA with any life. Batteries are heavy. The Montana GPS unit is heavy because of the battery. Also, mapping apps really do benefit from the display. Ballistics data, much less so.

Also, large screens are fragile, and large color screens even more so. At it's price point the kestrel is pretty robust.

The market you are looking for would better be served by an app that links a kestrel for weather and a rangefinder. Strelok pro is close, but only links to terrapin, but will link to a kestrel for weather. If there were more rangefinder options it would be perfect.

Well the battery life issue can be solved with lithium-ion batteries that we have in modern mobile phones and other hand held devices. The form factor of rechargeable li-ion and soon to be released solid state batteries is such that weight and is no longer a factor in modern handheld devices as it was say 12 years ago. Handheld Devices are no longer bound by the constraints of archaic AA batteries.

My point is that yes the Kestrel is very robust. But looking forward the newer younger long range shooters that are now in the sport will see the interface as a relic and will forgo the Kestrel especially if a competing device came along that did offer a modern Color GUI.

One thing Kestrel could do is offer said future unit with a Color GUI and sell it at a HIGHER price point. I for one would not have an issue with paying 200 or 300 dollars more for an device with a color GUI interface. This may be a market that Kestrel may want to test as I am sure there are thousands of others like me (especially folks just now getting into the sport) who would be happy to pay more for such a device.

Would be interesting though (with having no news coming out with SHOT Show 2021 cancelled) to hear if anyone with industry knowledge happens to know if a GUI color interface is in the cards in the future for Kestrel Ballistics, Weather, Fire, Heat Stress, or Agriculture units?

 

[Tritiumdials]

I'd like to see a built-in shot timer.

 

[slowworm]

AA batteries are everywhere. li-ion are a real pain in the butt in the field. They need to be recharged, and that is a lossy process. There is a very good reason the Army standardized on a couple of battery types.

I can tell you that the move in the defense sector is towards multi function devices if you need a rich gui. No-one wants to carry a big gps, a big ballistics meter, etc etc, each with their own custom battery etc etc. That is why I mentioned the phone as the ideal platform for you with a small lightweight, weather meter connected wirelessly. The Army is moving toward ruggedized android devices, at least in the fields I am aware of.

The issue with a stand alone unit is that it only does one thing. Once you have a device you can aggregate data. I'm pretty sure the wildfire fighters would like to see in-situ weather overlaid with real time fire hotspots along with the retardant tanker drop information with a countdown to the drop time.

Shooters might want a range card overlaid on a map with real time ballistic solutions for all targets based on the current GPS location, perhaps with real time target location updates based on intel and other sources, along with other danger areas marked.

That is where the market as a whole is moving. And where I have external sensors required I want a small, lightweight unit that wirelessly connects to the device.

The price for the device you want would more likely be in the $1200-$1500 range. It's a device with high development costs and a small market. Not a good combination for success.

There was an android based device on the hide talked about a while ago. It seems it never made it to market. Maybe because this stuff is harder than most people think.

 

[_Windrider_]

Well the battery life issue can be solved with lithium-ion batteries that we have in modern mobile phones and other hand held devices. The form factor of rechargeable li-ion and soon to be released solid state batteries is such that weight and is no longer a factor in modern handheld devices as it was say 12 years ago. Handheld Devices are no longer bound by the constraints of archaic AA batteries.

My point is that yes the Kestrel is very robust. But looking forward the newer younger long range shooters that are now in the sport will see the interface as a relic and will forgo the Kestrel especially if a competing device came along that did offer a modern Color GUI.

One thing Kestrel could do is offer said future unit with a Color GUI and sell it at a HIGHER price point. I for one would not have an issue with paying 200 or 300 dollars more for an device with a color GUI interface. This may be a market that Kestrel may want to test as I am sure there are thousands of others like me (especially folks just now getting into the sport) who would be happy to pay more for such a device.

Would be interesting though (with having no news coming out with SHOT Show 2021 cancelled) to hear if anyone with industry knowledge happens to know if a GUI color interface is in the cards in the future for Kestrel Ballistics, Weather, Fire, Heat Stress, or Agriculture units?

This is what you want. No idea where it stands.

The Kestrel Killer?

@Sand Sock Gear Tell me more!,, @Lowlight you have any info on this?

www.snipershide.com

 

[6.5SH]

This is what you want. No idea where it stands.

The Kestrel Killer?

@Sand Sock Gear Tell me more!,, @Lowlight you have any info on this?

www.snipershide.com

Given the dude hasn't posted since August 2020 after saying units arriving a month later, stuck in customs in fantasy land.

 

[lomarx]

The issue with a stand alone unit is that it only does one thing. Once you have a device you can aggregate data. I'm pretty sure the wildfire fighters would like to see in-situ weather overlaid with real time fire hotspots along with the retardant tanker drop information with a countdown to the drop time.

Shooters might want a range card overlaid on a map with real time ballistic solutions for all targets based on the current GPS location, perhaps with real time target location updates based on intel and other sources, along with other danger areas marked.

The price for the device you want would more likely be in the $1200-$1500 range. It's a device with high development costs and a small market. Not a good combination for success.

There was an android based device on the hide talked about a while ago. It seems it never made it to market. Maybe because this stuff is harder than most people think.

Really good convo points..appreciate having someone (my friends and family have no interest in discussing ballistic meters..lol) who knows what they are talking about engaging. Thats what makes Snipers Hide a great forum.

Anywho..I personally would not have a problem with a $1200 device. Everyone bellyached 5 years ago when mobile phones where approaching $1000 dollars now $1000 is a entry price for a 64 gb mobile phone and $1400 is the current median. Folks who are spending $4500+ for high end Precision Rifles and Glass to be honest have the funds for a splurge for a device in the $1200 price range and it would be more than a large enough market in North America alone to cover development costs.

The issue with using a multi function for a Kestrel Ballistic or Weather or Agriculture unit though would be the non ability to have a wet bulb on the android mobile phone to gather humidity and the heat generated by the phone might distort the temperature readings etc.

It would be really cool to see or read about some of the multi function hand helds that the Army (sure Marine Corps is two steps ahead of the Army but thats a story for another day... ) is testing...you have any links?

 

[_Windrider_]

Really good convo points..appreciate having someone (my friends and familty have no interest in discussing ballistic meters..lol) who knows what they are talking about engaging. Thats what makes Snipers Hide a great forum.

Anywho..I personally would not have a problem with a $1200 device. Everyone bellyached 5 years ago when mobile phones where approaching $1000 dollars now $1000 is a entry price for a 64 gb mobile phone and $1400 is the current median. Folks who are spending $3500 to $4000 for high end Precision Rifles and Scopes to be honest have the funds for a splurge for a device in the $1200 price range and it would be more than a large enough market in North America alone to cover development costs.

The issue with using a multi function for a Kestrel Ballistic or Weather or Agriculture unit though would be the non ability to have a wet bulb on the android mobile phone to gather humidity and the heat generated by the phone might distort the temperature readings etc.

It would be really cool to see or read about some of the multi function hand helds that the Army (sure Marine Corps is two steps ahead of the Army but thats a story for another day... ) is testing...you have any links?

Humidity is a non factor. It truly doesn’t even matter. Unless, you are one of those 2 mike plus guys. Then maybe but still not that much.

 

[ZiaHunter]

I own one of the original 4500AB's as well as a 5700 Elite. Good units but have their limitations. My go to solver especially for beyond 1000 is FFS running on either a Nomad or Juno. Tethered to a PLRF I can ping multiple targets to build a range card. Change FFP no problem and all dope is adjusted to reflect new location. The Juno is GUI and and a little bigger than a standard iPhone and built like a tank. Shooting different bullets though the same rifle or suppressed is easily accomplished with offsets. Scope calibration is easy and a set of utilities for most of what you need. May not be the latest tech as far as hardware but the platform is stable and FFS is loaded with features.

 

[rustyinbend]

What I want is the Windows computer-based version of their phone app. Wish list #2 item is for the Gun Profiles to sort alphanumerically instead of their current random display order. #3 is a faster firmware upgrade routine.

 

[FishDr]

And where I have external sensors required I want a small, lightweight unit that wirelessly connects to the device.

My GUI is the Kestrel phone app. This ^^^ is how I use mine. The kestrel (on a tripod) is an external bluetooth connected sensor. They're still pretty light.

 

[ranchrider80446]

I’m in the OP’s demographic of new to the sport and trying to figure out the best combination of devices to meet my specific needs. For my intended use (hybrid range and hunting) and budget (<$2k), I’d like to see some Kestrel GUI and function updates to keep a place in my kit. I dislike having to carry extra devices and $700 is a lot to use as just a pocket solver (noted a very good one) when other devices appear to be adding overlapping capabilities. I recognize others have other needs and preferences though.

If I’m buying a LRF, most come with weather instruments. The Leica CRF XX00.coms are just about perfect, other than they lack full Applied Ballistics. The Sig Kilo lacks DOF and I like the Leica precision and form better. I don’t need wind, since I prefer to read wind changes over the shooting course.

I would find DOPE in a small wearable to be super useful. The Garmin Delta Tactix or Fortrex 701 have so much functionality, but don’t talk to the Leica. The Garmins also have GPS mapping and dropping pins can be useful. I also will always have my iPhone with me for emergency, even if cellular is usually turned off.

If the Leica LRF talked to the Garmin running Applied Ballistics, I think that would meet all my needs. Applied Ballistics seems to be doing a lot to integrate across platforms. I’d love to see Kestrel release something in the wearable device market, or team with Leica and/or Garmin to bring their expertise and capabilities to other devices. Great time to be a shooter with so many great devices out there that are starting to integrate well.

 

[lomarx]

I’m in the OP’s demographic of new to the sport and trying to figure out the best combination of devices to meet my specific needs. For my intended use (hybrid range and hunting) and budget (<$2k), I’d like to see some Kestrel GUI and function updates to keep a place in my kit. I dislike having to carry extra devices and $700 is a lot to use as just a pocket solver (noted a very good one) when other devices appear to be adding overlapping capabilities. I recognize others have other needs and preferences though.

If I’m buying a LRF, most come with weather instruments. The Leica CRF XX00.coms are just about perfect, other than they lack full Applied Ballistics. The Sig Kilo lacks DOF and I like the Leica precision and form better. I don’t need wind, since I prefer to read wind changes over the shooting course.

Ok you might actually be on to a solution here for me and other guys who prefer more modern tech and options for our ballistic solutions

Yes I see where at the moment with the Leica you would not have access to full AB. But would the Leica CRF XX00's series bluetooth connect with Hornandy 4DOF app and you could use that (and I know..there are a million arguments for using AB versus 4DOF but humor me here) for your solutions?

I actually very much like the Hornady App and since relatively new I am learning to proficiently solution with both 4DOF and AB so have no issue with using the Hornady 4DOF App.

Wind can be picked up with a simple cheap anemometer.

 

[FishDr]

@ranchrider80446
How far is your maximum intended shooting range? If under 800 yards, and no wind meter required the Sig 3000 is a good system. It uses the BDX app to connect to your phone (GUI), the onboard solver matches both my Kestrel and Shooter apps w/in 0.1 mil at all ranges and its super easy to use. You can plug in your wind value and it will give you wind holds as well. However, if you are reading wind and not relying upon the solver as stated above, the DOF is much less useful and not really limiting factor. You could use this setup for hunting and not need an additional LRF or Kestrel.

If you require more than 800 yards, you can find a Kestrel Sportsman or the 5700 (X and elite are not needed) with bluetooth that extends the solver to 4000 yards for significantly less the $700. You can upgrade the unit later if you need additional features of the X or elite.

That would get your system under $1500 for sure. Maybe closer to $1200 depending upon deals. The newest rage for "all in one" device appears to be the Vortex Fury 5000 with AB. I have no direct hunting experience with that unit, but I've looked through a couple at matches. Looks like excellent glass and DOF is included. Again, not sure how useful that would be for the additional cost of the unit.

 

[pmclaine]

@lomarx

I look forward to the introduction of your competing Kestrel product.

Please let us know when it drops.

A Kestrel gives me data.

Garmin gives you pictures in the form of maps.

One benefits from color.

The other would just turn off buyers struggling to pay $450/1000 for primers in the PX.

 

[lomarx]

@ranchrider80446
How far is your maximum intended shooting range? If under 800 yards, and no wind meter required the Sig 3000 is a good system. It uses the BDX app to connect to your phone (GUI), the onboard solver matches both my Kestrel and Shooter apps w/in 0.1 mil at all ranges and its super easy to use. You can plug in your wind value and it will give you wind holds as well. However, if you are reading wind and not relying upon the solver as stated above, the DOF is much less useful and not really limiting factor. You could use this setup for hunting and not need an additional LRF or Kestrel.

If you require more than 800 yards, you can find a Kestrel Sportsman or the 5700 (X and elite are not needed) with bluetooth that extends the solver to 4000 yards for significantly less the $700. You can upgrade the unit later if you need additional features of the X or elite.

That would get your system under $1500 for sure. Maybe closer to $1200 depending upon deals. The newest rage for "all in one" device appears to be the Vortex Fury 5000 with AB. I have no direct hunting experience with that unit, but I've looked through a couple at matches. Looks like excellent glass and DOF is included. Again, not sure how useful that would be for the additional cost of the unit.

I am in the sport for the long haul so plan to over next 2 or 3 years get out to 2500 yards and maybe longer depending on conditions.

In my case I am avoiding Kestrel at the moment as dont like the interface and seek more modern GUI's

The Vortex Fury 5000 could be an option. The nice thing about Vortex from what I have heard is that they do try to roll over new products and customer ideals frequently and I would not be surprised if they added more solutioning in their Binocs in the near future.

As @ranchrider80446 said...this is a great time to be in the sport with all the new options coming to market.

 

[lomarx]

@lomarx

I look forward to the introduction of your competing Kestrel product.

Please let us know when it drops.

A Kestrel gives me data.

Garmin gives you pictures in the form of maps.

One benefits from color.

The other would just turn off buyers struggling to pay $450/1000 for primers in the PX.

I run a small aerospace firm so no interest whatsoever in switching from manufacturing aviation components to manufacturing ballistic solutions.

Kestrel can and will (why would they not..the current product line has done EXTREMELY well for Kestrel) continue to make its excellent products that it makes now but I only said that for those of us who can afford to pay more...it would be great if they offered higher end products as well for this segment of the market.

 

[_Windrider_]

I run a small aerospace firm so no interest whatsoever in manufacturing ballistic solutions Kestrel can continue to make its excellent products that it makes now but I only said that for those of us who can afford to pay more...it would be great if they offered higher end products as well for this segment of the market.

Most industries its normal to mention to a company your wish list and that was all I was doing with this post. Did not mean to turn you off with it.

Here’s the thing, you don’t have to use the solver in the kestrel. Pair it to your phone and use the AB mobile app and you got all the GUI you want.
Keep in mind that these are field devices used by real world people. Firefighters, military, etc etc. durability is paramount with fancy gui’s being like 10th on the list of needed things. Reliability and accuracy are far more important. Now I’m not discounting your desire for what you call modern, but if you step back and look at the big picture and realize that solvers are just tools, you will quickly realize it’s more than adequate.

now I would like an emulator on my phone where I could remotely control the kestrel. That would be awesome. Also, I want the wind to be able to be updated continuously in target mode. Otherwise what’s the point of the vane setup. FWIW, @Kestrel Ballistics has their own forum area for support and suggestions.

 

[ranchrider80446]

@lomarx
@FishDr
Thanks for your thoughts and inputs, several good suggestions to consider. The planned upgrade path seems to be the way with the pace of change right now - reminds me of the digital camera market. The Kestrel does currently serve as the hub of a total solution, as it seems all other 2-device combinations come one feature short.

I spend 80% of my time within 800y, but have a goal to build proficiency out to a mile+. The Sig BDX 3000 offers a ton of value. I don't love combining glass and electronics, but for the price and a hunting role, you’re right it’s hard to beat right now.

4DOF has worked well for me too, it was the first solver I downloaded since it’s free and often shoot Hornady factory. I haven’t found 4DOF in itself to offer additional connectivity or integrated functionality, but as an upgrade path makes total sense.

It’ll be exciting to see what come out in the next year or two.

 

[goneballistic]

I work in tech and have zero interest in a big bright screen.

Less battery, more fragile.

I would rather have a sightly better keyboard first like a blackberry or something before a screen.

The use case you are solving for is already covered by phones. Kestrel can just build their app out some and give you what your seek

 

[LANCER]

Kestrels are nice, but future versions having the following would make me upgrade:

1. E-Ink screens
2. Keep the buttons
3. Allow more characters in profile naming
4. (Big one) ALLOW US TO SORT PROFILES IN ANY ORDER THAT WE WANT