Has anybody tried the new Berger 85.5 .224 Hybrids?
- Thread starter VSP968
- Start date
Headed to the range with 223 loaded with 85.5 Varget 24.5 set to .010 off lands. 22.5" barrel and Ultra 9 30 cal. Will post results
Not bad very windy. 2826 FPS for the most part. Groups? You tell me. 100 yards
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Loaded up some more 85’s in a different charge range of R26. All at .020 off the lands. Measured throat and it grew .010 in the first 100 rounds.
Should have faster data tomorrow. If they don’t work in my set-up, I’m likely to focus on the 95’s.
Should have faster data tomorrow. If they don’t work in my set-up, I’m likely to focus on the 95’s.
Tried cfe223 and varget today in my 223. Very promising.
Rem 700
7 twist Bartlien 24in
.092 fb reamer
Lapua brass
Cci450
I'm going to load up some to try at distance of the 25gr varget and the two highest charges of cfe. Had zero signs of pressure on any of these loads. Might try going higher.
The 26.4 of cfe223
is probably the load to use. I was shooting into the sun this evening and the group may have been me.
Rem 700
7 twist Bartlien 24in
.092 fb reamer
Lapua brass
Cci450
I'm going to load up some to try at distance of the 25gr varget and the two highest charges of cfe. Had zero signs of pressure on any of these loads. Might try going higher.
The 26.4 of cfe223
is probably the load to use. I was shooting into the sun this evening and the group may have been me.
Btw, I think my chrono was high on meth the 25.0 of varget. I tried it again and got sd of 9 the second time
We are not that far apart. I was running 24.5 target and getting 2826 out of a 22.5" barrel
I'm running unmodded mdt mags. Shot 50 yesterday. Fed just fine. I have just a little longer throat than a wylde chamber and I was off the lands just a few thou
Well, got a couple MR matches under my belt with this combination.
The short version... it shoots. At least as well as I can hold, probably better. It'll probably take a better shooter than I to really wring this out properly.
Unfortunately, my 'history' with the .223 Rem in FTR is that it seems to 'punish' me for gun handling that I would otherwise 'get away with' using a .308 Win. So a lot of the 'stray' shots are all me, for one reason or another.
Saturday, Nov. 2nd 600yds @ NCWGC (East Wenatchee): winds were light and variable - no visible mirage, flags moving just enough to show there was *something* going on. Downwind shots were the wind; vertical... bad gun handling.
Relay #1
Relay #2
Relay #3
Then again today on November 9th, 500yds @ Machias. Conditions looked dead calm, and pretty much were for the first string. Second string, definitely had some push from the right, and third string had more of the same, plus some vertical movement going on down range. FWIW, this was actually three different loads being tested: 24 gn N150 w/ normal (3 thou) NT, with lighter (1.5 thou) NT, and then 23.9 gn. The original 'control' load actually shot the best, in my opinion... little bit of 'me' going on in the middle of the first half, and then had one round that chambered funny (had to force the bolt closed). Debated whether to extract and use a 'spare' round, but was concerned that I'd end up with a stuck bullet and/or powder everywhere, so I opted to send it - straight down @ 6 o'clock, as it turned out >8{(}
Otherwise the control load shot pretty well
The lighter NT load... was 'all over' the place, relatively speaking, and the two leakers were very much not on call. The last string was actually clean, but I had to work my behind off for that one - it felt 'looser' on target than the first load, for whatever that's worth.
Relay #1 (24.0 gn N150, 3 thou NT, control load)
Relay #2 (24.0 gn N150, ~1.5 thou NT)
Relay #3 (23.9 gn N150, 3 thou NT)
Also... not sure quite what to make of it, but the same charge seems to have sped up a noticeable amount from before. Whereas 23.9-24.0 gn was clocking @ 2780-2790 fps @ ~30-35F during load testing, the same charge weights are now running more like 2830 fps, based on 1) my LabRadar on Friday, and someone else's set up today on our firing point.
Either this lot of N150 (8.1.2014) isn't as temperature stable as I thought, or this barrel (Krieger) took an insanely long time (>400 rds) to 'speed up'. Definitely 'odd'...
The short version... it shoots. At least as well as I can hold, probably better. It'll probably take a better shooter than I to really wring this out properly.
Unfortunately, my 'history' with the .223 Rem in FTR is that it seems to 'punish' me for gun handling that I would otherwise 'get away with' using a .308 Win. So a lot of the 'stray' shots are all me, for one reason or another.
Saturday, Nov. 2nd 600yds @ NCWGC (East Wenatchee): winds were light and variable - no visible mirage, flags moving just enough to show there was *something* going on. Downwind shots were the wind; vertical... bad gun handling.
Relay #1
Relay #2
Relay #3
Then again today on November 9th, 500yds @ Machias. Conditions looked dead calm, and pretty much were for the first string. Second string, definitely had some push from the right, and third string had more of the same, plus some vertical movement going on down range. FWIW, this was actually three different loads being tested: 24 gn N150 w/ normal (3 thou) NT, with lighter (1.5 thou) NT, and then 23.9 gn. The original 'control' load actually shot the best, in my opinion... little bit of 'me' going on in the middle of the first half, and then had one round that chambered funny (had to force the bolt closed). Debated whether to extract and use a 'spare' round, but was concerned that I'd end up with a stuck bullet and/or powder everywhere, so I opted to send it - straight down @ 6 o'clock, as it turned out >8{(}
Otherwise the control load shot pretty well
The lighter NT load... was 'all over' the place, relatively speaking, and the two leakers were very much not on call. The last string was actually clean, but I had to work my behind off for that one - it felt 'looser' on target than the first load, for whatever that's worth.Relay #1 (24.0 gn N150, 3 thou NT, control load)
Relay #2 (24.0 gn N150, ~1.5 thou NT)
Relay #3 (23.9 gn N150, 3 thou NT)
Also... not sure quite what to make of it, but the same charge seems to have sped up a noticeable amount from before. Whereas 23.9-24.0 gn was clocking @ 2780-2790 fps @ ~30-35F during load testing, the same charge weights are now running more like 2830 fps, based on 1) my LabRadar on Friday, and someone else's set up today on our firing point.
Either this lot of N150 (8.1.2014) isn't as temperature stable as I thought, or this barrel (Krieger) took an insanely long time (>400 rds) to 'speed up'. Definitely 'odd'...
Any difference in your brass or process for the last string? Number of firings on brass, etc?
How much higher was the temp?
I’ve got a 6.5 twist Kreiger in 224
(Valkyrie gas gun) that sped up and really began to shoot at 600 rounds.
BTW, nice shooting dude. That’s a 3” X at 600, right?
Edited to add: I’m not sure if I’m more impressed by your shooting or your electronic target system or the fact you shoot in 35F weather......
On the right coast we argue for 45 minutes: who’s gonna pull and who’s gonna shoot the first relay.
How much higher was the temp?
I’ve got a 6.5 twist Kreiger in 224
(Valkyrie gas gun) that sped up and really began to shoot at 600 rounds.
BTW, nice shooting dude. That’s a 3” X at 600, right?
Edited to add: I’m not sure if I’m more impressed by your shooting or your electronic target system or the fact you shoot in 35F weather......
On the right coast we argue for 45 minutes: who’s gonna pull and who’s gonna shoot the first relay.
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Maybe high 40s, low 50s, vs. low 30s.... so 15-20 degree delta. Not enough to be seeing that kind of change, I'd hope.
Started load development with all the brass weight-sorted, neck turned, 1x fired. Annealed, F/L sized, expanded, ran thru the Giraud trimmer and RCBS case prep center (primer pocket), and tumble the lube off for ~15-20 minutes.
By the time it was all said and done (two different powders, testing at 100 and 600 yds) I was well into the 3x fired. Had 40 rounds left from that cycle that I shot up on Friday, and started on 4x on Saturday.
3" X @ 6, 2.5" @ 500.
Conditions & range @ 600 Friday
Conditions & range for Saturday
Started load development with all the brass weight-sorted, neck turned, 1x fired. Annealed, F/L sized, expanded, ran thru the Giraud trimmer and RCBS case prep center (primer pocket), and tumble the lube off for ~15-20 minutes.
By the time it was all said and done (two different powders, testing at 100 and 600 yds) I was well into the 3x fired. Had 40 rounds left from that cycle that I shot up on Friday, and started on 4x on Saturday.
3" X @ 6, 2.5" @ 500.
Conditions & range @ 600 Friday
Conditions & range for Saturday
For those using Varget with 223, I just got off the phone with Berger and was surprised at their recommendations. In 223 and Varget their load data is:
30" barrel
COAL 2.408
MIN 20.0 @ 2508 FPS
MAX 21.5 @ 2677FPS (101% case capacity)
Now I know they all tend conservative, but 21.5 is pretty far below the 24.5 and 25.0 grains I read here. At 101%, how are y'all stuffing in another 3 1/2 to 4 grains?!?
Compressed loads of Varget are fine, hard to get enough in a 223 case to cause significant problems.
I run 25.0gr under a 80SMK, primers are still round.
I run 25.0gr under a 80SMK, primers are still round.
My OAL is more like 2.593", in an ISSF match chamber (0.169" FB), jumping about 13 thou.
If they're citing a ~2.4" OAL, they are using a *very* short throat - maybe a Wylde, maybe even shorter?
I run Wydle and 75 ELD hits lands @ 2.49 and 80 Amax 2.515.... They are using something shorter. CLE or something like that.... Of the 5 223 Wylde chambered barrels I reviewed from Criterion, Shilen, Bartlein, Kreiger, Keystone those 2 bullets hit the lands at the exact same measurement.
Like was said earlier, I dont think you can get enough varget in there to blow yourself up. I'm running 25 gr with the 85.5, and had zero pressure signs.
But I usually use the book max to start off also. Just have to watch for flat primers and heavy bolt lift. If you work up slowly you will know when you are close
But I usually use the book max to start off also. Just have to watch for flat primers and heavy bolt lift. If you work up slowly you will know when you are close
It might not be 'showing' pressure... but 25 gn behind that bullet is likely well beyond NATO/CIP max pressures. Not saying that I (or others) haven't ran stuff that hot or hotter in the past, but it's definitely on the hot side of things.
Hodgdon powders show for a 80gr SMK max charge of 25.0c Varget with a cup pressure of 51,500. They also show IMR4895 with 23.oc at 53,900. Now with a 90 gr SMK and Varget with 22.3c at 52,100.
Sierra shows 80gr with Varget max 25.3 at 2900fps.
Now these are the published charges and on the safe side of things. Now I am not telling you to load past that. I am testing what is working in my gun only and sharing the information I have come up with.
Dan Newberry's Optimal Charge Weight Load Development go to ocwreloading.com
Sierra shows 80gr with Varget max 25.3 at 2900fps.
Now these are the published charges and on the safe side of things. Now I am not telling you to load past that. I am testing what is working in my gun only and sharing the information I have come up with.
Dan Newberry's Optimal Charge Weight Load Development go to ocwreloading.com
There are 1000 different variables here to look at. I'm not going to derail this thread, but freebore, brass thickness, chamber dimensions, twist rate, ect will all effect how much pressure the case has with X Amount of powder.
25.0 in my chamber with .092 fb is going to be a lot different than a .025 fb sammi chamber loaded at 2.26 oal.
25.0 in my chamber with .092 fb is going to be a lot different than a .025 fb sammi chamber loaded at 2.26 oal.
I am running a Wylde that has 1844 rounds on it so the throat has advanced about .065 from new. With the 85.5 my oal is 2.590. Assuming.020 off lands and correcting for my Throat that should be 2.505 oal. I have run a first shot at a load test with Varget from 23.0 to 24.8 loaded at 2.570. I saw no issues but 24.4 was my highest best node.
david
I have had real good results with Varget. I am at 24.5 and I have put it under 75,77,80,80.5, 85.5, and 88 and even 90 grain bullets. speeds from 2808 to 2900. Most of the time I am 010 off the lands on a 1-7 twist. 96% of the time under a 1/2". When I do my part I have been lucky enough to get sub 1/4". But I am running a Desert Tech with a very large chamber area and is throated for the longer bullets. My 77 Sierras are at 2.980 to the ogive and my 80.5 Bergers are at 2.990 to the ogive. This is my results and yours may very. I started low and worked up to this charge weight and don't recommend anyone starting off with what I am at.
I can’t recommend this setup enough. It took me a while to get everything working well together.
For rapid load development, it‘s unbeatable (IMHO).
Just loaded a batch for testing. The new V3 Bluetooth Autothrower is perfect for bumping charges .3 grains per, the widely spaced markings on the micro die are ALOT easier to read than the original Redding seater I was using.
I’ve tried every combination of powder drops, Dillon, Area 419 and Hornady. They ALL bridged, 419 the most (and you’ll never know till its too late because you cant see it) - until I added the MTM kit to the Hornady powder die. The tunnel in the tube is wider & fits snugly in the Hornady powder die (unlike the wobbly Dillon die)
Expand, pour, seat and measure. Every round is measured in station 4 (Redding Instant Indicator) & is generally +- .001. If the occasional tight neck leaves a round .003 long, I back it up, dial in exactly .003 on the easy read Forster, reseat and measure again.
I think I’m as close to perfect and progressive as I can get.
(My only wish is for Redding to come out with a 6BRA Indicator die body)
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ramrod from a muzzle loader and a hammer work pretty good too !!
25.5 varget and 80.5 bergers.
22 Creedmoor 16.5 inch Benchmark 1:8 twist barrel in DTA SRS A2.
Peterson Virgin untouched brass.
Federal 210M primers.
Berger 85.5 grain
40.1 grains of H-4350
3069 FPS IS-D of 5.8
.882 inch 4 shot group at 200 yards.
(was using the hornady 75 grain ELDM prior, but with lesser results)
Peterson Virgin untouched brass.
Federal 210M primers.
Berger 85.5 grain
40.1 grains of H-4350
3069 FPS IS-D of 5.8
.882 inch 4 shot group at 200 yards.
(was using the hornady 75 grain ELDM prior, but with lesser results)
Just waiting on .22br reamer to show up and barrel to be finished. Also waiting on neck turning lathe and some mandrels from 21st century.
I have about 100 rounds down a new .223 Rem barrel all with 85.5 hybrids.
Overall I can’t get them to group less than .75” at 100yds on average. Or will have a good group going, then throw a 1” flyer. I’ll have good numbers on the chrono ES at 15fps or below.
I’m using lapua brass, H4895 and CCI450s. The chamber has a .095FB and I’m jumping the hybrids .020”. I haven’t tried any other seating depth than that.
Is any one else experiencing poor groups over all?
The low group is with the chrono attached. Both groups had an ES of 15fps or less.
thanks
Overall I can’t get them to group less than .75” at 100yds on average. Or will have a good group going, then throw a 1” flyer. I’ll have good numbers on the chrono ES at 15fps or below.
I’m using lapua brass, H4895 and CCI450s. The chamber has a .095FB and I’m jumping the hybrids .020”. I haven’t tried any other seating depth than that.
Is any one else experiencing poor groups over all?
The low group is with the chrono attached. Both groups had an ES of 15fps or less.
thanks
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No. I’m jumping them .020 in a .22br
I have done a work up in 223 with Lapua brass with both Varget and H4895. I found a wide node with Varget at 24.4 but with H4895 the node was very narrow. I did get about 75 fps more velocity at that node but not worth it. After one more test comparing H4895 and Varget I think I am done with H4895 with this bullet. I have found that this bullet, at least in my barrel, likes to jump. I tried a depth test and at .020 off the lands and greater jump the groups were nice and round.
I use BR-4's in my loads. I would think that 450's might be too much primer for a small case. My groups with Varget were in .5 or less for most loads.
For me personally, I don't take any data on a barrel till I get 100 rounds through it. Then I will take a known good load and take some data on grouping. I have found that most barrels the groups will continue to get better and fliers reduce till you hit 200 rounds. I know that each barrel is of its own.
David
Oh god!!! 25.5gr, that's soooooo over pressure. How did you not just blow yourself up?
I'm just joking.....I had similar results with no pressure signs got flamed. Looks like you have a shooter!
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