Have we come full circle on AR optics?

[Jigstick]

LPVO or LPVO + offset red dot have seemed to be the koolaid flavor of the day for the past few years. However I’m seeing a lot of guys ditching that and going back to ACOGs and ACOGs + RMR…Elcan 1-4s and 1-6s. What is driving this tread back to what worked years ago

 

[308pirate]

Maybe stop paying attention to the flavor of the month and just setup your rifle how it works best for you?

Since my carbine lives in suburbia 95% of the time, a simple RDS in a QD mount lives on it. I also have a pre zeroed 1-4X on a QD mount if needed.

 

[Jigstick]

That’s what I do 308pirate. Never switched over to the whole LPVO thing. I just find it interesting that we had this whole AR optic thing figured out years ago…and these LPvOs were a solution to a problem that didn’t exist

 

[Milf Dots]

Carbines are just so much fun to train, shoot, run and gun with, when equipped with a duty rated, enclosed emitter optic like an Aimpoint PRO, Trijicon MRO, etc.

Regarding scopes on carbines- great for coyotes and prairie dogs in open country, but for the above type use it does't make much sense and seems to be driven by marketing pics and such. My two cents.

 

[roostercogburn98]

I keep a 1-6 on my SBR 300BO so my youngest can hunt with it if she chooses. Other short guns wear a red dot type optic, except the scar which wears an elcan specter just for looks

 

[FuhQ]

That’s what I do 308pirate. Never switched over to the whole LPVO thing. I just find it interesting that we had this whole AR optic thing figured out years ago…and these LPvOs were a solution to a problem that didn’t exist

The only reason I swapped my .300 BLK to a 1-8x24 Strike Eagle LPVO, was because it showed such promise with accuracy, that I plan on using it for hunting someday. Plus, I got a smoking deal on that optic & mount combo. Fixed 3x works just fine, but I really wanted to be able to zoom in closer at 200 yards for hunting and target shooting. Works pretty good. I still run fixed power optics, and EOTech & Holosun red dots on my "battle rifles" where it's less shit that can go wrong during a SHTF situation.

 

[KYAggie]

I think it’s because most people figured out that you’re better off matching the optic to the effective range of the round, and the real effective range of a mouse gun is within the effective range of a red dot sight. Of course, threat identification could be an issue if you don’t have binoculars or something with some magnification, but once a treat is identified, a red dot pretty well covers the 5.56 effective range and is very fast up close.

 

[Lug Nut]

That’s what I do 308pirate. Never switched over to the whole LPVO thing. I just find it interesting that we had this whole AR optic thing figured out years ago…and these LPvOs were a solution to a problem that didn’t exist

OP’s thread is about a problem that doesn’t exist.

 

[Rob01]

That’s what I do 308pirate. Never switched over to the whole LPVO thing. I just find it interesting that we had this whole AR optic thing figured out years ago…and these LPvOs were a solution to a problem that didn’t exist

LVPO is not a thing and AR optics were far from figured out years ago. People just thought ARs couldn't do much so they figured a red dot is fine. When you actually try it at longer ranges as well as close in the 1-6 is a real eye opener. If you don't have a need and only using it inside a house then that's fine too but doesn't eradicate the use of LPVO for everyone.

 

[Steel head]

Maybe stop paying attention to the flavor of the month and just setup your rifle how it works best for you?

Since my carbine lives in suburbia 95% of the time, a simple RDS in a QD mount lives on it. I also have a pre zeroed 1-4X on a QD mount if needed.

This
I run either red dots or a 1x4 on my AR’s

 

[Jigstick]

An acog with red dot has far less moving parts than a LPVO. Let alone both eyes open shooting

 

[Rob01]

You can keep both eyes open with a LVPO also especially on 1x and it's like a red dot.

 

[Simonsza1]

I agree with above. I also think when the 3 gun game came on hard back in early 2k lots of guys realized how much was getting done with there rifle. The 1-6 was ideal for that type of 5yd-500yd shooting. For lots of us including myself after using a 1-6 in competition for almost 20 years now becoming very proficient with it. I now find it to do everything I want on my do all rifle. Now my sbr I run a delta point and it’s fantastic, have a pistol caliber carbine that I shoot steel matches with and up until recently I just shot it with irons and it was super fast, delta point on that now also. I wouldn’t think there was a koolaid I just think it’s the application, lots of guys now are probably planning on doing nothing but protecting there home or self defense. But imo the 1-6 does it all!

 

[Simonsza1]

You can keep both eyes open with a LVPO also especially on 1x and it's like a red dot.

Exactly, your supposed to if running it correctly

 

[308pirate]

An acog with red dot has far less moving parts than a LPVO. Let alone both eyes open shooting

An LPVO is infinitely easier to use with both eyes open at 1X than any ACOG ever will be. Why don't you know this?

Your point about mechanical complexity is a dumb strawman. The military has adopted plenty of LPVOs including the USMC (Trijicon VCOG) for general issue.

Lastly, while it may not matter to you, ACOGs don't have an adjustable ocular focus and people who wear glasses can't get a clear picture through them. Rendering them about as useful as tits on a boar hog.

 

[Jigstick]

How’s that VCOG working out for them lol

 

[308pirate]

…and these LPvOs were a solution to a problem that didn’t exist

Trijicon VCOG® 1-8x28 Selected as USMC Squad Common Optic | Trijicon®

Trijicon® products are known for offering legendary reliability, absolute accuracy and industry-leading technology to shooting enthusiasts, law enforcement agencies and the U.S. military and its allies.

www.trijicon.com

US Army Designated Marksman Rifle Mounts the SIG TANGO6 1-6x24 Scope

The US Army has selected SIG SAUER’s TANGO6 1-6x24 riflescope for their Squad Designated Marksman Rifle (SDMR). The United States Army Squad Designated

sofrep.com

This is the new scope that special operators will use on their missions

Now commandos can accurately engage targets up to 600 meters away, and still drop tangos in close quarters.

www.militarytimes.com

I guess you're right.............

 

[308pirate]

How’s that VCOG working out for them lol

You tell us

BTW nice askhole thread

 

[Milf Dots]

 

[Milf Dots]

I agree with above. I also think when the 3 gun game came on hard back in early 2k lots of guys realized how much was getting done with there rifle. The 1-6 was ideal for that type of 5yd-500yd shooting. For lots of us including myself after using a 1-6 in competition for almost 20 years now becoming very proficient with it. I now find it to do everything I want on my do all rifle. Now my sbr I run a delta point and it’s fantastic, have a pistol caliber carbine that I shoot steel matches with and up until recently I just shot it with irons and it was super fast, delta point on that now also. I wouldn’t think there was a koolaid I just think it’s the application, lots of guys now are probably planning on doing nothing but protecting there home or self defense. But imo the 1-6 does it all!

All kidding aside, this post covered LPVO for competition and I'd completely overlooked that usage.

 

[hlee]

1-8 LPVO and a can work great for my uses, which include; run and gun 2-gun matches, HD, and deer hunting. Almost, dare I say it, a do all rifle setup…

 

[Bravo6niner]

For me my uses are completely different than @308pirate 95% of my shooting is wide open rural area so a 1-8 has a huge benefit for coyotes or steel 300yds and out. Not to say a rds won’t work but that dot sure does cover up a bunch of a coyote at 350yds!!! I think both options are viable, pick what suits your needs most of the time.

 

[TheBigCountry]

ACOG with a RD mounted on top and done.

 

[jzerfoss]

Like others have said run what you like... There are literally thousands of "tacticool experts" whose opinion rely on group think. This is one of the setups I plan on using for 2 gun. I like it and will only change it if I find a set-up I like better.

 

[z7.jled]

Like anything, pick your favorite color. In terms of usefulness, a good 1-8 or 1-10 (vortex g3) and a nice light weight carbine will successfully do anything you want. If it’s too close to get a sight picture you are probably instinctively shooting anywhere so choice doesn’t matter

Acogs are revolutionary, but the evolution continues and the variable power choices are extending range of the weapons and making an huge impact on the battlefield

The competition works is also making big waves, look how far dudes are shooting 223’s with great success

Dont hate the lpvo until you worked with one, and if you don’t like it, cool, but many folks can first round hit a 66%ipsc at 400 with a 1-6 and a 16” carbine, that red dot is a lot more difficult

 

[Evolution 9]

A big advantage for me, to a LPVO is the ability to perform correct and precise holds at distance. ACOG can’t compete with a 1-8 ATACR or Gen 3 Razor at this.

Both those scopes let me dial or hold with the Christmas tree reticle.

I’ve made many shots in the 500-700 yard range. Even if an acog reticle was magically perfectly aligned with my gun and ammunition, shots like 534 or 630 yards would be a guess for where to hold, especially if there’s wind.

I mostly shoot coyotes and being off even a little on my hold would not work.

I point shoot (very successfully) under stress so the tiny speed advantage of a red dot up close is wasted on me (I look over it).

 

[308ftWIN]

Purely for SHTF purposes for me, on an AR-15, nothing beat a TA31 ACOG with an RMR. Durability, and clarity and bright illumination with "battery Life" per ounce can't be beat, and magnification suited to the effective range of an AR-15.

I haven't found my setup for an AR-10 yet. Right now it's a TA11 but I think I want more range for it.

 

[Desert_Racer]

ACOGs were great for the GWOT era, but there’s way better optics available now. Both the Vortex Razor HD options are excellent, in my experience.

The eye relief for the ACOG isn’t very forgiving (nose to charging handle). As opposed to the two razors, which I have found to be extremely forgiving. I also appreciate their wide FOV, which honestly feels better to me than my T1. I think the only downside is weight and size.

 

[schmi015]

Full circle indeed....no 1.93in mount here

 

[Doc68]

I have current 16" set up with a Strike Eagle 1-6. I am suburban, but a 5 min ride will have me in open area.

I also run back up irons zeroed at 50yds so I'm flat out to 200yds.

Never got into the whole angled red dot or irons.

Maybe I'm just old.

Doc

 

[MarshallDodge]

LPVO or LPVO + offset red dot have seemed to be the koolaid flavor of the day for the past few years. However I’m seeing a lot of guys ditching that and going back to ACOGs and ACOGs + RMR…Elcan 1-4s and 1-6s. What is driving this tread back to what worked years ago

As you can see by how this thread is going, not everyone is in the same boat. I've been on internet gun forums for over 20 years and it has been interesting to see how trends change. My advice would be to use what works for you and stay proficient with it. If you get the opportunity to try something else then do it but jumping from one thing to the next can decrease proficiency.

 

[acudaowner]

While I don't plan on doing much running around anymore with or without a rifle in my hands I do get that having a low powered optic makes more sense for that than a 5x25 it's just faster on target off and on to the next personally I want range 600 -1k yards or further I am old , broken and in poor health I am not running , if I am something went really wrong is going on hence the gun so for that reason I will always go high powered optics 35x's or even beter 50x's yea . I still have two ar shorties set up with low powered 1x8's and a red dot on the side loads of fun to shoot yea I do want a shortie in 308 it's loud I love loud . Maybe a 300 win mag would be louder that could be even more fun in a short sbr like a petra falkor in 12''

 

[pmclaine]

Purely for SHTF purposes for me, on an AR-15, nothing beat a TA31 ACOG with an RMR. Durability, and clarity and bright illumination with "battery Life" per ounce can't be beat, and magnification suited to the effective range of an AR-15.

I haven't found my setup for an AR-10 yet. Right now it's a TA11 but I think I want more range for it.

ACOGs were great for the GWOT era, but there’s way better optics available now. Both the Vortex Razor HD options are excellent, in my experience.

The eye relief for the ACOG isn’t very forgiving (nose to charging handle). As opposed to the two razors, which I have found to be extremely forgiving. I also appreciate their wide FOV, which honestly feels better to me than my T1. I think the only downside is weight and size.

I have a TA-33 ACOG on my AR and am familiar with use of Aimpoint PRO on a work AR.

I like that the lower mag TA-33 (3X) has generous eye relief. It certainly makes shooting out beyond 200 yards better.

The Aimpoint is awesome for me 200 and in.

Problem with the ACOG is no ocular adjustment. I cant use it unless I wear my prescription lenses and that despite having a weak prescription.

In classes I see people with LPVO spending a lot of time messing with their scopes. I'm guessing that's more a indication of training level than the equipment.

In last class I was in my 3X ACOG equipped rifle was the only one to complete an exercise requiring field firing positions with two shots on steel for each position and a generous, but limited, number of rounds to complete the problem. Targets ranged from 225 to 25 yards. The class had a mix of LPVO and RD with magnifiers. I had the only ACOG.

I know ARs will shoot beyond 400 yards but for "practical" distances I think the TA-33 is the shizzle. A former Marine familiar with RCO was surprised by the eye relief my little ACOG had.

Now if Trijicon would only add a diopter adjustment to the ocular lens...........

 

[JustSendit]

I’m not a 3-gunner, is this anti lvpo thing you’re referring to from that world?

If anything I see more of a shift to lvpo’s with people who actually work with their guns. I don’t care what comp people do, they’ll do anything to gain an advantage in a specific application. I primarily shot long range matches but of my friends who shot and do well in the 2-gun/3-gun stuff. They’re all running lvpos and offset red dots…

Personally there’s no way I’m picking a acog or elcan 1-6 over a 1-10 vortex or NF 1-8 atacr for work at this point.

 

[pmclaine]

I bought a USO 1-8X when that range of mag was new and fantastic. It also features a daylight bright dot.

Think it took away from the idea of "carbine" with its size and weight. Moved it to the .308 MWS when I mounted the TA-33.

I need to look at lighter weight LPVO and certainly see the utility.

 

[Ranchhand]

My AR carbine wears a 1x8 lpvo. Works great on the ranch. Choose what works for you.

 

[MarshallDodge]

My AR carbine wears a 1x8 lpvo. Works great on the ranch. Choose what works for you.

Exactly.

Some of us actually use our guns for more than Instagram/entertrainment.

 

[r.tenorio671]

....as new technology arrives, change in usage and procedures will develop as well. Users will try out the new technology to determine how it fits into THEIR usage patterns. RDS -vs- LPVO is not a "you can only have one" situation, it just increases the options available to the user. There are those that can use the LPVO in the same manner as a RDS, and there are those who prefer to incorporate an off-set RDS, neither is wrong, it's just what works for them.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

AR15 with a red dot and a 3x magnifier will get you out pretty far and is pretty simple to use.

I'm fairly certain you'd be limited more by ammo accuracy/precision/muzzle velocity than scope magnification. This is for SD/HD/combat.

Certainly your particular needs may require much more scope.

 

[Evolution 9]

AR15 with a red dot and a 3x magnifier will get you out pretty far and is pretty simple to use.

I'm fairly certain you'd be limited more by ammo accuracy/precision/muzzle velocity than scope magnification. This is for SD/HD/combat.

Certainly your particular needs may require much more scope.

Enough magnification for many things, yes. But the magnifier doesn’t do much to help you know where to hold. 434 yards is very doable for a good AR, but without a useful reticle it’s a very difficult shot.

The tree reticle in my 1-8 ATACR makes this easy.

 

[hlee]

And, even a 2 MOA dot obscures a lot of a target once you get beyond a couple 100 yards.

I don't know, but does a magnifier eliminate the effects of an astigmatism on the appearance of a red dot? In other words, if I see a comma when looking through a red dot, will it still look like a comma through a magnifier?

 

[godofthunder]

I'm in the LPVO boat for life. I don't compete anymore, but when I did I ran a few tests to see if my 1-6 razor ran any slower than a red dot. Long story short, my stage times were not effected by using the 1-6 on 1x, but then I had up to 6x for longer engagements.

If you're a cheap bastard I can see a RDS of LPVO, but if you can afford a higher end LPVO then I don't know why you wouldn't have one on your gun.

 

[MarshallDodge]

And, even a 2 MOA dot obscures a lot of a target once you get beyond a couple 100 yards.

I don't know, but does a magnifier eliminate the effects of an astigmatism on the appearance of a red dot? In other words, if I see a comma when looking through a red dot, will it still look like a comma through a magnifier?

I have the starry dot issues with astigmatism when using a RDS but a magnifier clears it up.

However, I would rather have all the features that an LPVO offers before going to a magnifier. The weight difference isn't significant enough for me.

 

[TurboTrout]

Seems the folks competing and winning are using LPVOs and the like.

I don’t care so much what the state uses and orders overpriced by the pallet for troops they don’t actually even care about.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

Enough magnification for many things, yes. But the magnifier doesn’t do much to help you know where to hold. 434 yards is very doable for a good AR, but without a useful reticle it’s a very difficult shot.

The tree reticle in my 1-8 ATACR makes this easy.

If you're shooting out to 434 yards, a red dot is clearly not the correct tool for your usage.

 

[Evolution 9]

Agreed, that’s the point I was making, that LPVO has advantages over a red dot even if used with a magnifier.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

Agreed, that’s the point I was making, that LPVO has advantages over a red dot even if used with a magnifier.

Except an LVPO isn't a red dot and doesn't act like a red dot at 1x.

 

[Rob01]

Except an LVPO isn't a red dot and doesn't act like a red dot at 1x.

Have you ever used a Razor 1-6? It does.

 

[Evolution 9]

Except an LVPO isn't a red dot and doesn't act like a red dot at 1x.

I didn’t claim it does (though some are very close).

I’m not saying a LPVO does everything perfectly. I’m saying a red dot/magnifier DOESN’T do everything. Thus, for some of us, the desire for a LPVO to do those parts that the dot and magnifier don’t.

 

[hlee]

A LPVO has a less forgiving eye box than a red dot, but that is hardly a concern on a rifle/carbine/pistol that gives the shooter any semblance of a cheek rest.