Head to the stock or stock to the head?

[Barn Side]

Firstly I have been told the head should be as erect as possible.

Face goes down on the cheek piece 1:50:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkrBN5Is5Z8

Another hide member said:

<span style="font-style: italic">Bring the stock to the head, not the head to the stock. Then, place the butt of the stock firmly into the pocket formed in the shoulder. </span>

Also in a past video on here when shooting with a bipod I noticed that a senior member brought his head to the rifle.

 

[THE MGD]

Re: Head to the stock or stock to the head?

(For standing and kneeling) Ive always been taught: "bring the rifle up to your face to keep your head level. <span style="text-decoration: line-through">Doing the reverse cants your head and therefore cants your aim."</span>
-Could be wrong but its always worked for me.
-i do slightly diffrent things prone and benched ( but i use a level to help sometimes)

Edit: bringing the stock up helps me find my consistant cheek weld. When I bring my head down it cause me to put a diffrent cheek weld in where i natyrally cant my rifle. Your method may vary.

 

[Mister Ouchie]

Re: Head to the stock or stock to the head?

There are many different shooting disciplines with different ideals. I was confused by some stuff that was said initially until I placed it in a context. Some people only shoot in a certain way and make statements that don't apply to other approaches (mind you, lots of things are fundamental and always apply).

For target shooting where I hold the rifle across my body, the shoulder pocket/stock-to-head stuff applies. For more active, squared up shooting, it doesn't. Same thing with prone with bipod, for that my head goes on the stock like it's a pillow. What works for you may vary though, so try everything out for yourself (can be a long road) or get some training (short road but not a shortcut).

 

[GunKnowledge]

Re: Head to the stock or stock to the head?

I'd love to see anybody competent in any type of shooting discipline "bring the stock to their head" while "keeping the head erect as possible".

That is the most asinine visualization possible.



In all long arm based shooting the shooter bends their neck, lowers their head, and places their cheek on the designated location of the buttstock. This is true for all types of shooting requirements; benchrest, prone, kneeling, standing, tactical, sporting, hunting, etc.


As for the CANT of the shooters head, the firearm and its sighting sight should remain completely vertical with each other. The placement of the head to observe the sighting system is somewhat flexible. (Although having a canted head does NOT cant your aim, not sure what brillant mind came up with that)

 

[arborpro]

Re: Head to the stock or stock to the head?

this isn't rocket science and no special military training is needed. cheek weld is important in all positions, but the most for offhand shooting. if you walk around with your head cocked off to the side and down and can maintain a straight line you should be good to go. if not, you should use an adjustable check piece and length of pull to keep your head as erect as it is when you are walking around. if shooting mostly prone remove your sights and work your bolt while sighting down your rifle to see what fits you and your position. then build your equipment to fit your shooting style. have someone build /parts/mounts to your shooting style..

Shooting is all fundamentals. natural point of aim, sight aliment,trigger control and follow through are the keys to success. then build on your environmentals. if you cant call your shots in no wind what good is everything else?
arborpro

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Head to the stock or stock to the head?

Here's what the USAMU says about it for prone, kneeling, and standing position, referring to placement of the butt in the shoulder: "Bring the stock to the head, not the head to the stock. The higher the position the higher the stock." The idea is to have balance, as well as a muscularly relaxed perspective of aim. If, for example, you shoulder the rifle literally in the shoulder in standing position with something like an M16 or M4 the rifle butt will be simply be too low to get a proper stockweld and sight alignment without extensive contortion, which will compromise the steadiness of the position. In prone position the stock will be lower in the shoulder yet for balance and consistent perspective of aim with head erect and vertical as can be possible without muscular strain, the stock will still need to come up from its grounded position. If it is not brought to the head and instead the head is lowered to the grounded butt, an extreme perspective of aim is created which yields vertical dispersion of shots since such a position cannot be maintained consistently.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Head to the stock or stock to the head?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KSwift</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd love to see anybody competent in any type of shooting discipline "bring the stock to their head" while "keeping the head erect as possible".

That is the most asinine visualization possible.

</div></div>

I'll be your Huckleberry.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Head to the stock or stock to the head?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dkealty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Firstly I have been told the head should be as erect as possible.

Face goes down on the cheek piece 1:50:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkrBN5Is5Z8

Another hide member said:

<span style="font-style: italic">Bring the stock to the head, not the head to the stock. Then, place the butt of the stock firmly into the pocket formed in the shoulder. </span>

Also in a past video on here when shooting with a bipod I noticed that a senior member brought his head to the rifle.
</div></div>

Great video, it did not however show the position being built step by step with enough detail for a novice shooter to completely comprehend. Detail would have brought attention to: butt to shoulder, stockweld, grip, elbows, and non-firing hand positioned to control the rifle with complete muscular relaxation. It's the concept of muscular relaxation which seems to be overlooked or thought not to be important by most untrained shooters. These shooters actually think it is by using muscle that aim is maintained. The harder they work to maintain aim by using muscle, the more they believe they are doing the work of marksmen. These folk don't know what they don't know. BTW, I look for a result with my match conditioned AR based service rifle at 100 yards that the smallbore shooter with Match Rifle looks for at 50 meters. For such results, a comprehensive understanding of the importance for muscular relaxation and how to achieve it is essential.

One more thing, muscular relaxation is achieved either by the shooter making himself fit the stock or by making the stock fit him. I mostly shoot what appears to be a standard commercial equivalent of an M16A2. I guess I'm lucky as I have no trouble squaring up to it and building a muscularly relaxed position. It actually feels better than any of my specialty stocked LR rifles.

Remember, there are three elements to a steady position: support, NPA, and muscular relaxation. These elements are so tied together that you can not totally realize NPA and adjust for the sight picture sought without first having muscular relaxation; and, of course muscular relaxation is not possible without support (bone/artificial.

 

[Barn Side]

Re: Head to the stock or stock to the head?

Thanks for the replies

I was just watching the NZ hunting forum video and it said bring head straight down on the rifle.

Sterling I do recall reading that in the manual as well, but I keep seeing so many elite shooters bringing head to stock.

Go to 1:06
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAbG4nj1SE4

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Head to the stock or stock to the head?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dkealty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the replies

I was just watching the NZ hunting forum video and it said bring head straight down on the rifle.

Sterling I do recall reading that in the manual as well, but I keep seeing so many elite shooters bringing head to stock.

Go to 1:06
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAbG4nj1SE4
</div></div>

If you want to see how elite shooters do it, watch the HM's build their positions at this years National Long Range Championships.

 

[seanh]

Re: Head to the stock or stock to the head?

So long as you have the same mount every time, it doesn't matter.

for me it's build the shot, support arm, grip, shoulder pocket then face to stock. Once face is mounted, I see if I have NPA, if not I'll move my foot slightly...maybe a knee. If that doesn't work...rebuild.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Head to the stock or stock to the head?

My order is: shoulder the rifle, first bringing stock to head, being aware of the five factors of a steady position. Then, adjust NPA, pull trigger smoothly, and follow-through.