Help from the 175 SMK/I4064 Loaders

[918v]

It should be noted that pmclaine’s rifle (25” barrel) is averaging 2660 FPS with his lot of 175 FGMM in freezing conditions. I chronoed my ammo in warmer temperatures and my barrel is longer. So his results are consistent with mine.

When I pulled one apart it had 44+ grains of an extruded powder definitely not 4064. Didn’t shoot all that great. My handloads shoot 3/8 MOA.

 

[Frank]

A couple days late to the discussion, but wouldn't it be better to take the weight off the end of the muzzle for shooting the groups since it is probably changing the muzzle point at bullet release? If your picking a load by velocity consistency then leave it on, but if your picking a load by group size/location, then better to have it off. Just my 2 cents worth.

Frank

 

[BearNaked]

You are definitely going after the low node. I ran 43 grains of 4064 pushing the 178 HPBT at 2650fps out of a 20" barrel. unless you are having pressure signs at that charge weight, I would go up to 43-44grs.

 

[pmclaine]

Got another round of loads to test this weekend.

Ill keep you all updated.

 

[Mooseknuckles]

You are definitely going after the low node. I ran 43 grains of 4064 pushing the 178 HPBT at 2650fps out of a 20" barrel. unless you are having pressure signs at that charge weight, I would go up to 43-44grs.

Just loaded the exact same load for my 308, it was running at 2575 out of my 20 inch Howa with no pressure signs.
178 bthp
Nosler brass
Winchester large primers
43 grains imr4064
Coal 2.85 ogive 2.240

 

[GIXXER2000]

Never had much luck with 4064. I have used Vaget and 4166 both used pretty much the same load. The only thing i use 4064 for is in my AR-10.

 

[pmclaine]

My next .308 loading session Im moving to IMR 8208XBR.

Only reason I was using 4064 was because I was using it for 30-06 in a Garand.

Ive moved my bolt 30-06 off to I4350 and I will keep a smaller amount of 4064 or 4895 on hand for the Garand.

Shouldnt let one gun rule my reloading regimen.

 

[BearNaked]

Shouldnt let one gun rule my reloading regimen.

aint that the damn truth. too bad its easier said than done.

 

[390fe]

For what it's worth, I'm loading 42.5 grains of IMR4064 with Sierra 175 Matchkings and 180 grain Gamekings.
Remington brass, Remington 9 1/2 primers, 2.225 base to ogive. Sub half minute of angle accuracy. This is a max load in my rifle, 2,580fps from my 20 inch Savage barrel.

 

[pmclaine]

Todays numbers/target.....

Some dick put two .223 holes on my paper.

 

[pmclaine]

The CCI primers are holding up without burn through.

Looks like I scatter at 42.2 than start to tighten again at 42.5.

Ill re examine 42.7 plus thinking I wont be suffering "leaking" primers.

 

[cornhusker86]

42.5 was starting to come back in. 42.7 may be the sweet spot. Couldn't Mr. 223 find his own target?

 

[pmclaine]

42.5 was starting to come back in. 42.7 may be the sweet spot. Couldn't Mr. 223 find his own target?

41.7 is supposed to be the Dan Newcomb node for FGMM 175. 42.7 was the 168 FGMM sweet spot.

As mentioned earlier I was having trouble keeping WLRP primers from leaking and scoring my bolt.

Ive got enough shooting at lower charges with good looking primers that Im willing to crawl up the powder scale...

Maybe 42.7, 42.9, 43.1, 43.3 need to be loaded up.

I know the many here think Im too low right now and I respect their experience.

Guy shooting .223 on my target was a novice with friends letting him try out there stuff. He was supposed to be aiming at steel 6-8 feet left of my target.

Guessing Im lucky I dont have .223 holes in me.

 

[cornhusker86]

I know you mentioned trying 8208. Between that and Varget, I've had much better luck with the Varget in 308. Of course every rifle is different and it may work great for you.

 

[AMGtuned]

Todays numbers/target.....

View attachment 7068496

View attachment 7068497

View attachment 7068498

Some dick put two .223 holes on my paper.

Looks like a good day! I've got a pile of 168smk and 175smk I'm about to toy with. Just finished loading 168 hornady match for my AR10. Time for some bolt gun play.

Not only is .223 shooter a dick, but, hes a TERRIBLE shot.....lol

 

[918v]

41.7 is supposed to be the Dan Newcomb node for FGMM 175. 42.7 was the 168 FGMM sweet spot.

As mentioned earlier I was having trouble keeping WLRP primers from leaking and scoring my bolt.

Ive got enough shooting at lower charges with good looking primers that Im willing to crawl up the powder scale...

Maybe 42.7, 42.9, 43.1, 43.3 need to be loaded up.

I know the many here think Im too low right now and I respect their experience.

Gut shooting .223 on my target was a novice with friends letting him try out there stuff. He was supposed to be aiming at steel 6-8 feet left of my target.

Guessing Im lucky I dont have .223 holes in me.

43+ gonna be too hot in FGMM brass.

What COAL did you use for this test?

 

[pmclaine]

I know you mentioned trying 8208. Between that and Varget, I've had much better luck with the Varget in 308. Of course every rifle is different and it may work great for you.

Varget was such a pain in the ass to find for a time....

Like the way 8208 flows through the Dillon measure. Big stick tends to dribble all over my bench.

 

[pmclaine]

43+ gonna be too hot in FGMM brass.

What COAL did you use for this test?

Ogive - 2.214, 2.214, 2.216 = Avg 2.215

Coal - 2.7965, 2.799, 2.799 = Avg 2.80 round up.

Planning on loading some. Any suggestion for increasing length to check for improved accuracy?

I don't mind being in a low node for my "plinking" rounds any time I use a gun if it matters I shoot FGMM.

 

[918v]

2.830” with 42.2

 

[pmclaine]

2.830” with 42.2

I'll check the numbers from yesterday and from what I pick on my low end I'll try 2.81, 2.82 and 2.83.

 

[308Gunner]

I load 42.7 gr of 4064 in M118 LR brass at 2.820 it shoots 1/2 MOA out to 1000

 

[xsn10s]

With both 168gr and 175gr either SMK or Bergers I've done well with TAC or RL15. I used to load with IMR 4064 but have switched. I also use Fed210M but like you mentioned Fed210's will work. Since TAC flows so well I tend to use that the most now. Also I see the wooden bend and you using a bipod. I'd try taking the bipod off one day and shoot from bags. Be careful not to hit the sling stud, I've had that spoil some groups.

 

[pmclaine]

With both 168gr and 175gr either SMK or Bergers I've done well with TAC or RL15. I used to load with IMR 4064 but have switched. I also use Fed210M but like you mentioned Fed210's will work. Since TAC flows so well I tend to use that the most now. Also I see the wooden bend and you using a bipod. I'd try taking the bipod off one day and shoot from bags. Be careful not to hit the sling stud, I've had that spoil some groups.

TAC is mercury in a powder drop.

I used it in .223 with 77s but liked 8208XBR and 77s mo' better.

I still have a pound Im going to use for a shit ton of .223 55 grainers I came across.

 

[xsn10s]

I really like TAC with 77grainers, but only with Fed 205's. Other primers it's okay, but not that tight. I'll have to try some 8208XBR. Yeah I like it for the 50's gr also. but I've heard so much good things about Benchmark that I'll try that. In any case try TAC or RL15. IMR 4064 is still a good powder, but I found that it worked best at either the low end or max charges in the 308.

 

[Darkside-Six]

I use to have a 24” Schneider barrel on my Rem 700. My go to load was 175 SMK and 42.8 4064

 

[pmclaine]

2.830” with 42.2

Your consistent for reason.

Took a look at all my numbers and 42.1-42.5 have consistently the best data numbers.

42.3 would seem to be the way to go but in the cold weather Im shooting Ill drop to 42.2 to allow for summer heat and Im going to load out 2.81, 2.82, 2.83 from present 2.80 to see if the group tightens.

Im thinking it will.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Your consistent for reason.

Took a look at all my numbers and 42.1-42.5 have consistently the best data numbers.

42.3 would seem to be the way to go but in the cold weather Im shooting Ill drop to 42.2 and Im going to load out 2.81, 2.82, 2.83 from present 2.80 to see if the group tightens.

Im thinking it will.

42.3 was my pick from the very beginning.

Just sayin'

 

[pmclaine]

42.3 was my pick from the very beginning.

Just sayin'

You can lead a horse to water...........

 

[918v]

Your consistent for reason.

Took a look at all my numbers and 42.1-42.5 have consistently the best data numbers.

42.3 would seem to be the way to go but in the cold weather Im shooting Ill drop to 42.2 to allow for summer heat and Im going to load out 2.81, 2.82, 2.83 from present 2.80 to see if the group tightens.

Im thinking it will.

Looking at your pics, the MS is prolly creeping forward under recoil which changes point of impact. I would remove it for this part of the test.

I put a 2” washer over the threaded end of my barrel to arrest the forward movement.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Looking at your pics, the MS is prolly creeping forward under recoil which changes point of impact. I would remove it for this part of the test.

I put a 2” washer over the threaded end of my barrel to arrest the forward movement.

Doing the OCW portion with the MS on can certainly muddy the results. I had noticed an inordinate amount of vertical in all the groups, but chalked it up to the bipod on the concrete bench.

Edit: I guess it's wooden, but same idea

 

[pmclaine]

Doing the OCW portion with the MS on can certainly muddy the results. I had noticed an inordinate amount of vertical in all the groups, but chalked it up to the bipod on the concrete bench.

Edit: I guess it's wooden, but same idea

Ill strip the Harris and go back to bags for length testing.

Harris does seem to have more hop than my Atlas that I shoot more often.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Ill strip the Harris and go back to bags for length testing.

Harris does seem to have more hop than my Atlas that I shoot more often.

The bipod doesn't seem to induce vertical for me on the grass or dirt from the prone, but I personally can't keep the vertical out of it from a bench top.

 

[Doom]

The bipod doesn't seem to induce vertical for me on the grass or dirt from the prone, but I personally can't keep the vertical out of it from a bench top.

FWIW, I fight the bipod off the bench also. I keep working at it and I'm coming to the conclusion that its more me than the bipod. Seems hard to keep a repeatable position. I will say that placing a folded towel under the legs seems to help as well as making sure the buttstock is not on the collarbone. .

 

[xsn10s]

One key factor that worked for me on the concrete bench with a Harris bipod was two tings. Really tighten that Harris on securely with a quarter or screw driver. And push forward and "load" the legs up with some pressure. The wooden bench seems like it could cause problems with the legs varying from catching in the cracks or spaces between the planks of wood. If it was consistent then no big deal, but I'd find that unlikely. Bags or a front benchrest type rest works best for me off a bench.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

FWIW, I fight the bipod off the bench also. I keep working at it and I'm coming to the conclusion that its more me than the bipod. Seems hard to keep a repeatable position. I will say that placing a folded towel under the legs seems to help as well as making sure the buttstock is not on the collarbone. .

I believe you. I have sand bags so I just use those. I have no desire to fight it. I have too many other things to think about.

 

[pmclaine]

Im done.

42.2 at 2.83. Good advice here. Thank you.

Interesting the Mspeed throws my rounds high. I actually have the fine adjust -.5 MOA because of what the Mspeed does. If I set it to zero my ammo will line right up with the 175 FGMM zero the scope is set for.

Approx FPS for limited data of 42.2 at 2.83 is +/- 2670.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

One final suggestion... if you are so inclined.

I find .010" to be a bit coarse. I often see a dramatic differences between two adjacent .005" increments.
2.815" and 2.825" will fill in the most promising gaps in what you have already done.

Nit picking maybe, but you've come this far.

 

[918v]

You might also wanna try that load in lighter brass, like Lapua or Hornady. Dropping the pressure a little will reduce the OAL sensitivity.

 

[pmclaine]

2.83 was really tight until I put the last round slight left. There are three rounds in what looks like a group of two.

Im going to load ten at present 2.83. Detune it just hair, Dial them deeper .005, load ten more, and give them both a try at 300.

Getting tired of shooting this rifle. Missing my other guns.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

2.83 was really tight until I put the last round slight left. There are three rounds in what looks like a group of two.

Im going to load ten at present 2.83. Detune it just hair, Dial them deeper .005, load ten more, and give them both a try at 300.

Getting tired of shooting this rifle. Missing my other guns.

Seems like you've learned a lot though. It has been really interesting following it. These are my favorite type of threads. It's a new puzzle every time.

 

[pmclaine]

Its a data set, not presented as clearly or professionally as some of your recent posts but posting it is helpful to me for feedback and will perhaps help someone else.

Reloading for rifle isnt my favorite thing, pistol is much easier, but I think I get good value dabbling in it.

 

[pmclaine]

Still working it.....

300 yards......2.83 appears to spread more than I want.

I like the 6 oclock group in the 3 inch circle at 2.825 but the three low to the right make me wonder WTF? A scope adjustment gets 7 of them in the 3 inch circle.

Makes me wonder what 2.82 even would do for me.....

 

[918v]

Do it.

 

[pmclaine]

Do it.

Done.

 

[918v]

Done.

Post it

 

[pmclaine]

Patience.

 

[pmclaine]

2.825 vs 2.820 at 300 yards

Only other change was a +.5 MOA elevation adjustment.

Sighters - 3 @ 2.825, 3 @ 2.820. Dont know where shot 6 is unless two bullets, one hole, and that would be the 2.820 as the 2.825 are accounted for.

2.825 10 rounds fired alternating with 2.820

2.820 Shot 9 (24) I took when the sun burst through my overcast. It created a big boil of mirage. I wish I had of held it. Thinking I may have lost my mojo after seeing it and followed up with 10 (26).

So 2.820 does better average wise 7/10 in black 1 MOA circle, but that group at 2.825 looks a little tighter, more horizontal, until the 4 "outs" really appear out.

Im thinking .5 MOA left wind makes 2.825 a winner.

Hmmmmm?

2.822 and .5 MOA left?

 

[padom]

Doing the OCW portion with the MS on can certainly muddy the results. I had noticed an inordinate amount of vertical in all the groups, but chalked it up to the bipod on the concrete bench.

Edit: I guess it's wooden, but same idea

I disagree. I've done 100's of OCW tests with my MS on my barrels for years before the Labradar was released. It didnt muddy any results. It changed POI slightly but as long as you left it on for your entire test everything was consistent.

 

[pmclaine]

I disagree. I've done 100's of OCW tests with my MS on my barrels for years before the Labradar was released. It didnt muddy any results. It changed POI slightly but as long as you left it on for your entire test everything was consistent.

Yes.

Looks like my MS caused my results to shoot high and when removed , in this particular case, brings it close to zero I set with 175 FGMM.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

I disagree. I've done 100's of OCW tests with my MS on my barrels for years before the Labradar was released. It didnt muddy any results. It changed POI slightly but as long as you left it on for your entire test everything was consistent.

How many barrels? How different were the tapers? How different the calibers? Just the V3 or the Sporter also? How different were the set ups (bipod, mechanical rest, sand bags)?

You might disagree, but there is no possible way you can be definitive with something so situationally individual.