Help needed - how to minimize heart beat movement out when shooting groups

[Mr. Wolf]

My groups seem to have gone to the birds recently.
Changed over to an open class build with a B14r but my groups are meh.
Set up: B14r, Arken ep5, Atlas CAL, ATS tuner, filled rear bag, 50 & 100 yrs outdoor range Center X and Sk rifle match.

My ARA bench production scores were around 2350 with the CZ, but now I'm down to 1800 with the same target.
When I put a Tactacam on it the other day, I noticed some heart beats transmission when centering up to fire.
Any recs on how to minimize the heart beat transmission? I'm sure that this is having an adverse effect on group sizes.

Few thoughts:
I'm shooting on a bemch, should I go prone?
My grip on the firing hand and butt end of the stock is similar to when firing centerfire. Should I lighten?
Am I rolling over my head too much? (I can usually see my bullets drop in at 100yds and don't have to adjust cant)

Thanks in advance for your help.

 

[justin amateur]

Dealing with body mechanics is a royal pain.
My issues range from center of balance to finding a comfortable position.
Shooting from a wood bench, the bench itself can be the problem.
Even minor shifts in body position can cause movement of the bench
especially at the moment when y'er about to squeeze.
Too much contact with the rifle messes with results.
I had to eliminate cheek contact to the stock.
Minimize contact of the butt with my shoulder
and find a method of squeezing
that didn't shift the rifle's position as I did so.
As of now, free recoil is the best description of how I shoot using an F-class bipod.
Almost zero contact with the rifle and bench top

 

[acudaowner]

stop breathing , electric shock then repeat to get it started again . send pics

 

[Longshot231]

I find that going prone helps a lot. Also try to place the target at eye level as much as possible. I belong to a shooting range where, if I shoot prone, the rifle is angled up at an uncomfortable level. So my groups suck there. At other ranges, where the targets are eye level, the groups are better.

A shooting jacket with a pad at the shoulder dampens the movement from the blood vessel when your heart rate increases. I have several shooting jackets but like the old style USMC jacket best but it's hard to find. However, you can probably find another shooting jacket from:

Shooting Apparel | Shooting Coats | Creedmoor Sports

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You might get laughed at but if it works and scores go up, you will have the last laugh but try a PAST recoil pad. I like the jacket over the pad but putting something between the blood vessel in your shoulder and the butt plate minimizes the motion from the pulse.

Shooting Shoulder Pads & Recoil Pads for Sale | MidwayUSA

Shop the best shooting shoulder pads for sale at MidwayUSA. Reducing the amount of recoil with a shoulder recoil pad for your shotgun keeps you shooting or hunting longer. Save Now!

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I stopped holding my breath when taking the shot a few years ago. I read, on another forum, that some shooters breathed with their mouth open but in a relaxed manner. Just breath in a relaxed manner and take the shot.

Holding the breath a little too long causes the heart rate to go up.

That breathing technique is personal preference and some will vehemently disagree with it. Nevertheless, try it out and see if it works.

I like going prone better than shooting from a bench. I also prefer to have the legs of the bipod in the dirt rather than a hard surface like concrete. A hard surface causes the rifle to bounce off the bipod when fired.

Think about ditching the bipod altogether. Out of frustration some time ago, I placed a few other rifles on PRS bags on the ground when laying prone. I can't explain it but few of my rifles group better off of a bag compared to the bipod.

Speaking of bags, I get a small PRS bag and place it under my non-firing side of my chest near the shoulder when laying prone. It minimizes any movement I may have and I can relax when taking the shot.

That may or may not work for some folks but it works for me.

 

[canezach]

stop breathing , electric shock then repeat to get it started again . send pics

A lifeless body is a still body! If you're not willing to go completely still, you aren't committed to shooting tiny groups!

 

[J.J.chago]

Have your Blood pressure checked…. Could be really high

 

[BowChamp]

A good set of wind flags and learning how to read them has made the most difference for me. Also a heavy rifle and solid bench have helped me when shooting groups with my 22 LR.

I do like to hold my rifle when shooting and because of this, a rifle that fits me has been a big help.

Now, moving around putting one shot in one bull has been a challenge for me...I am getting better with practice. As I get better at this, my group shooting is also getting a lot better too.

Ammo plays a big part in being accurate. I have a variety of ammo and know how each performs from my rifle. Maybe your new rifle doesn't shoot this ammo as well as your other rifle?

 

[usafa77]

I was watching Fclass John on youtube shoot his .22. I had no idea that that style of shooting had completely different fundamentals that traditional shooting. No contact with the rifle , hair trigger, breathing wasn't part of the equation, total free recoil. Very informative. So I guess the answer to the question is what are you using your rifle for. If your shooting groups to shoot groups it's one way. If your shooting groups to practice for NRL22 it's something else.

 

[nikonNUT]

I was watching Fclass John on youtube shoot his .22. I had no idea that that style of shooting had completely different fundamentals that traditional shooting. No contact with the rifle , hair trigger, breathing wasn't part of the equation, total free recoil. Very informative. So I guess the answer to the question is what are you using your rifle for. If your shooting groups to shoot groups it's one way. If your shooting groups to practice for NRL22 it's something else.

Took a class with the owner of one of the ranges I shoot PRS rimfire at (He's pretty good!) and he had me get on the rifle. Started moving my head and shoulder around and the cross hairs were all over the place. We dropped the cheek piece until my cheek weld was more of a light touch (more like a reference point) and shortened the butt pad until there was a fingers width between it and my shoulder. Gun settled down considerably. I am 100% sure that is fundamental blasphemy but it did help.

 

[Williwaw]

When I first went from 16 to 36 power I came straight back in the house and posted on RFC about my pulse and what to do about it. Best answer was get off the gun ... entirely if possible. I remove the cheek piece and use taller rings and my big melon is entirely off the rifle.

 

[Mr. Wolf]

Thanks for the advice.
Shooting to practice NRL22 / PRS22. But also enjoyed the 6x5 group shoots. I tuned the Center X and it was hammering 5/8" at 100 yards. But my Stock CZ Pro Varmnt out shoots it... Glad I didn't sell that o e to fund this open build.

At a local match, they do a mad minute style ARA target in 5 min stage so have been practicing for that as well.

Shortening the stock a 1/4" might help bring it more centerline.
I also try to shoot at the natural expiratory pause so no breath holding.

Thanks, Ill post some updates after a range session.
YMMV, happy shooting

 

[gkgeiger]

The problem I have is that I shoot, when practicing with center fire rifles on either side. Consequently I have to wear muffs. I can’t keep them from contacting the stock.

 

[justin amateur]

Same problem here GK.
At the pistol range the ear muffs are okay.
Using a rifle, I wear in-ear protection so as to avoid contact with the stock.
There are plug style hearing protection that can do the job.

 

[BillOH]

Have your Blood pressure checked…. Could be really high

Consider this. It could be important.

 

[DuneShoot]

Been reading this thread.
When some of you say get off the rifle-how do you get a good sight picture if your cheek is off the stock, how do manage recoil?

 

[Williwaw]

Consistent head/eye position with out a cheek weld is just a lot of careful practice. Recoil manages itself ... with a good bipod, a heavy rig, a good rear bag set up I just let it go where it goes. When set up well that means it goes the same place every time which is as repeatable as can be. There is no intervention on my part that I can repeat as consistently as doing nothing ... many say a specialty of mine.

 

[justin amateur]

Strong neck muscles and tilt head to line up eye with scope.
No cheek weld, minimal contact with rifle, free recoil.
It's rimfire, very little kick. Bipod and rear bag supports and controls.
Effective technique both off the bench or prone.

 

[gkgeiger]

Same problem here GK.
At the pistol range the ear muffs are okay.
Using a rifle, I wear in-ear protection so as to avoid contact with the stock.
There are plug style hearing protection that can do the job.

I have custom molded ear plugs but I can’t wear them with CF rifles shooting. I’ve been told that you can still get hearing damage with ear plugs. What kind of plug style protection are you using?

 

[Mr. Wolf]

Consider this. It could be important.

At the doctor's office last week was 120s/70s, so hopefully that's not the issue.

There was an advice for a shooting jacket. Maybe something to consider in the winter but not with the 87 deg with 70% hum.

Also, I can make my heart stop just by thinking about how I'm going to pay for groceries with 4 teenagers back in the house for the summer... no electrical shocks needed.

YMMV, happy shooting

 

[justin amateur]

33db foam disposable plugs.
I buy bulk from Amazon, GK.

 

[Irishrimfire]

your scores have decreased, what's the one thing you have changed that may have contributed to this ?
You changed your rifle.

 

[Mr. Wolf]

your scores have decreased, what's the one thing you have changed that may have contributed to this ?
You changed your rifle.

True, perhaps it's the rifle breaking in or perhaps it's the nut behind the trigger.

So I shortened up the LOP .25" which helped me get the rifle more centerline towards the near half of my collar bone. The Cz and the Bergara now have similar LOP.

Interestingly, this makes the buttstock settle into a less wobbly position than my shoulder pocket as the moment arm is smaller (near half of collar bone ~3" from centerline vs shoulder pocket ~6" from centerline). Shortening the LOP also had an effect on me less goose necking and my head being positioned more upright vs angled forward ~25 deg. Lastly, brought along a shooting buddy (youngest son) with me to see if it was me or the rifle.

Happy to report that the groups tightened up and the heart beats were less prominent. Not certain if the collar bone dampens the beats or if the traditional shoulder pocket allows the pulse from the axillary artery to be transmitted or if the beating was from some portion of the facial artery. The end result is that a more midline placement of the buttstock and a more upright head posture helped with the groups and I noticed less transmitted heart beats.

Never knew how critical a .25" fitment adjustment could make!
YMMV, happy shooting.
(SK rifle match at 50y, 5 shot groups, 0.311" avg.)

(Papua C-X at 50y, cherry picked 5 shot group)

 

[Dstoenner]

At the doctor's office last week was 120s/70s, so hopefully that's not the issue.

There was an advice for a shooting jacket. Maybe something to consider in the winter but not with the 87 deg with 70% hum.

Also, I can make my heart stop just by thinking about how I'm going to pay for groceries with 4 teenagers back in the house for the summer... no electrical shocks needed.

YMMV, happy shooting

I wear a leather shooting pad on my shoulder when i am shooting where i preload the bipod with my shoulder. Since it is only about 6x3” it isn’t hot. My rimfire is free recoil on rests so heartbeat is not an issue for that.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

The problem I have is that I shoot, when practicing with center fire rifles on either side. Consequently I have to wear muffs. I can’t keep them from contacting the stock.

I exclusively wear in ear protection for this reason. I just can't deal with muffs shooting precision. This is the biggest reason I shoot everything suppressed all the time. I'd hate to have to go back to using muffs but if you aren't shooting suppressed (or are next to a Neanderthal) then muffs are a necessity unfortunately. In ear just can't get the protection level needed for being around these braked rifles.

 

[pmclaine]

Get a COVID vaccine.

Stopping heart beats seems to be something it does do.

 

[acudaowner]

Do artificial hearts have a heartbeat?

A centrifugal pump or an axial-flow pump can be used as an artificial heart, resulting in the patient being alive without a pulse.
think how tight your groups could be with no heart beats to think about caution you still need to breath now and then .

 

[BowChamp]

True, perhaps it's the rifle breaking in or perhaps it's the nut behind the trigger.

So I shortened up the LOP .25" which helped me get the rifle more centerline towards the near half of my collar bone. The Cz and the Bergara now have similar LOP.

Interestingly, this makes the buttstock settle into a less wobbly position than my shoulder pocket as the moment arm is smaller (near half of collar bone ~3" from centerline vs shoulder pocket ~6" from centerline). Shortening the LOP also had an effect on me less goose necking and my head being positioned more upright vs angled forward ~25 deg. Lastly, brought along a shooting buddy (youngest son) with me to see if it was me or the rifle.

Happy to report that the groups tightened up and the heart beats were less prominent. Not certain if the collar bone dampens the beats or if the traditional shoulder pocket allows the pulse from the axillary artery to be transmitted or if the beating was from some portion of the facial artery. The end result is that a more midline placement of the buttstock and a more upright head posture helped with the groups and I noticed less transmitted heart beats.

Never knew how critical a .25" fitment adjustment could make!
YMMV, happy shooting.
(SK rifle match at 50y, 5 shot groups, 0.311" avg.)
View attachment 8178592
(Papua C-X at 50y, cherry picked 5 shot group)
View attachment 8178595

Glad to see things are coming back together for you.

 

[BowChamp]

Consistent head/eye position with out a cheek weld is just a lot of careful practice. Recoil manages itself ... with a good bipod, a heavy rig, a good rear bag set up I just let it go where it goes. When set up well that means it goes the same place every time which is as repeatable as can be. There is no intervention on my part that I can repeat as consistently as doing nothing ... many say a specialty of mine.

I would think having the parallax adjusted would help with this also.

Sooner or later I'm going to have to try free recoil.

 

[RTH1800]

I have little training. I have been shooting groups from bench and prone for almost 60 years.

I will say find a position for butt of rifle that reduces or eliminates brachial artery pulse. Shoot at natural respiratory pause which is different from “holding your breath”.

Think of slowing your pulse. Some people also find a “skipped heartbeat” that recurs and fire the shot at that time.

If any or all of the above do not apply note a rhythm in the movement and fire at the lower of those.

Below are two groups from a Win 52 shot at 100 yards. I have shot dozens or hundreds like them. A few better. Many worse. But seldom over 1” in good conditions.

Good luck.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Watch some videos on biofeedback techniques and heart rate. It works.

Once you master that you can kill goats by staring at them. Well maybe.

On a serious note… biofeedback heart rate stuff works. Really.

Cheers, Sirhr

 

[SortOfClear]

Get your resting heart rate between 40-60 bpm. It's really hard to shoot between beats and during a respiratory pause if your heart beat is greater than 1 beat per second.
Use a bag and get your rear hand off the rifle butt. It adds additional feedback randomly, especially if you shoot over a long time duration. Harder to diagnose having your hand there.