Help on accuracy please

[Hogg0494]

Hi guys,need some ideas on what happened to my accuracy.rifle is a 6.5 Creedmoor,impact 747 action,manners stock,bartlein barrel,gen 2 vortex optic
Had this rifle for 3 years,always shot sub .50 groups at 100 yds,has about 900 rounds through it,clean it 400,800 rds,after 800 rd cleaning it started shooting all over,it shoots a sub .50 group then a 3” group,no consistency at all,I have been using Hornady 147 eld match factory ammo after ammo testing when I first got it,I have recently tried 3 different lots and 3 other types of ammo and no difference,I have triple checked my optic,rings,base and all good,have tried a different optic,have called Manners and tried the 65/45 action screw torque as well as other torque settings from 30-65 lbs. have had 3 ither people shoot it as well,pics below show back to back 5 shot groups shot today with everything the same.As always help appreciated.

 

[nn8734]

Could be the barrel is on its way out. Seems like you checked everything i would have (though im sure someone will point out something you mau have missed). 800 rounds seems too soon for a burn out but you never know. Check the crown and if possible, maybe bore scope it.

 

[Hogg0494]

Just ordered a bore scope,I would think heavy barrel would last 1500-2k rounds?
Never used a bore scope,how do you tell barrel is shot out?

 

[nn8734]

Just ordered a bore scope,I would think heavy barrel would last 1500-2k rounds?
Never used a bore scope,how do you tell barrel is shot out?

I would think so as well but you never know. Take some bore scope pics and post them here so folks can take a look.

 

[Hogg0494]

Will do. Tks

 

[hafejd30]

Check your crown

More damage is done from improper cleaning or unintentional accidents during cleaning than barrel burn outs for many people

 

[Marine52]

If I understand correctly, you have 900 rounds on the barrel and you cleaned it twice? With solvent only?

 

[Hogg0494]

900 rounds on barrel,cleaned it twice,(400 & 800 rds)used nylon brush,boretech rod,boretech eliminator solvent

 

[Hogg0494]

First 800 rds,no problems,inconsistency started after the second(800rd )cleaning

 

[Feniks Technologies]

If the crown and such is fine, and you’ve tried all the things you listed, including scope tracking or another optic…..

The only two options really left:

- try a different chassis. There is a *very* slim chance it’s moving or binding somehow

- barrel is gone. Happens sometimes. I’ve seen 6.5’s go pretty early and some last longer than normal

This is assuming the barrel is actually clean.

 

[Marine52]

First 800 rds,no problems,inconsistency started after the second(800rd )cleaning

you likely have severe carbon fouling at this point. Try using Iosso, JB’s, or Simichrome. Be aggressive.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

Another thing to check is carbon ring in front of chamber when bore scope arrives. I would find it exceedingly hard to believe that a Bartlein barrel with only 900 rounds of factory ammo through it would be anything more than well broken in. I have over 2200 (handloaded, warmer than factory) rounds on my older 6.5CM Bartlein barrel and it's still consistent in velocity and 1/2MOA groups.

I have no personal experience with BoreTech cleaning solvents. With that said, my experience with other products (Hoppes, CLP, others) is that none of them would effectively remove a minimal carbon ring even with a couple dozen passes with a wire brush - and I clean every 200 rounds or so.

Bore scope will probably reveal a lot of carbon buildup in the first 8-10" of the barrel. At 900 rounds, there will most likely be some fire cracking, which is normal.

There are many threads here about barrel cleaning. I have found that careful - CAREFUL - use of CLR (Calcium-Lime-Rust) is by far the easiest way of removing carbon (it won't touch copper). I put a cotton patch wet with the stuff on a subcaliber brush (.22 for 6.5CM), run the patch back&forth in the first 10 inches of barrel, then set the patch atop the carbon ring for 10 minutes. Then swab the bore with at least two dry patches, followed by at least three or four patches wet with whatever "kinder, gentler" solvent I'm using. CLR is nasty stuff. It will utterly destroy bluing and damage most other finishes. Frank Green of Bartlein has tested with CLR and found it to etch barrels if left in very long - he doesn't like it.

Fwiw. Good luck.

EDIT: Be very careful with abrasive cleaners.

 

[Hogg0494]

Borrowed a bore scope. Here’s some pics
I see carbon but not sure what I should be looking for

 

[Hogg0494]

More pics

 

[AllenOne1]

You need to clean all of that carbon and copper out of there. Get some JB Bore Cleaner put it on a nylon brush and scrub it until you are seeing shiny bare metal. Clean the bore paste out, I have found that warm water and Dawn on a nylon brush will take it right out. Then season the barrel with graphite lube (lock-eze is one way) before you shoot it. It may help to go through a break-in process as it may copper when it is this clean. Shoot 1-3 rounds and clean it with Bore Tech Eliminator, season with graphite, repeat, repeat. A borescope will tell you quickly how this is progressing. Teslong is the cheap borescope you will be looking for.

 

[Hogg0494]

Ok guys,got the barrel to shiny metal. Went to range and shot a bunch of groups at 100 yds. Same result,shoots a sub 1/2” group then a 2” group.all random,puts 2 through the same hole ,then tossed a 2” flyer Shot a total of 100 rounds,letting the barrel cool about every 10 rds.I removed the action,checked everything
Tried multiple action torque settings
Tried 3 types of ammo with 3 different lots,barrel has about 1100 rds now
The bore scope is here,what should I be looking for?cracks?

 

[Hogg0494]

5 shot groups

 

[Hogg0494]

3 shot groups

 

[Hogg0494]

5 shot & 7 shot groups

 

[Marine52]

Looks like you have checked all the obvious things: loose base or rings, different ammo lot, etc. Assuming you are consistent with recoil management, cheek pressure, etc, we’re looking at low probability problems like a loose barrel. As Feniks Tech said above, could be chassis or burned out barrel. Have a competent gunsmith look at it

Erratic POI? Check Your Scope — But It Could Be a Loose Barrel « Daily Bulletin

Are you seeing unpredictable changes in Point of Impact on your target? Think you may have a scope issue? Well maybe not -- when was the last time you checked your BARREL? Yes scopes do fail, and scope bases/rings do get loose.

bulletin.accurateshooter.com

 

[Hogg0494]

Pretty consistant with my shooting technique.also had 2 others shoot it,including the range master.he mentioned barrel might be on the way out but said same as some others here,1100 rds is very,very early on a barrel

 

[Marine52]

Yes I would have expected at least 2.5k life. But that’s all subjective. I’ve only had good experiences with Bartlein.

 

[918v]

Ok guys,got the barrel to shiny metal. Went to range and shot a bunch of groups at 100 yds. Same result,shoots a sub 1/2” group then a 2” group.all random,puts 2 through the same hole ,then tossed a 2” flyer Shot a total of 100 rounds,letting the barrel cool about every 10 rds.I removed the action,checked everything
Tried multiple action torque settings
Tried 3 types of ammo with 3 different lots,barrel has about 1100 rds now
The bore scope is here,what should I be looking for?cracks?

How did you clean it? Did you use a bronze brush? Cuz shiny metal appearance does not necessarily mean it’s clean.

 

[Hogg0494]

Used a bronze brush with boretech eliminator & c4.a few wet patches then the brush about 20 strokes.then dry patches till clean ones come out.then same procedure with a nylon brush

 

[Highbrass]

I had an older rifle with a Burris scope that would do the same.thing. Shoot 3 or 4 really well then scatter the next 3. Replacing the scope fixed the issue.

 

[BobKaare]

Dissassemble then reassemble everything, tighten with correct torque, if you use loctite, use the blue one.
Something is most likely loose, either action, scope rail or rings.

 

[CK1.0]

If the barrel shot before, and now it doesn't, something changed. If you've already checked everything from buttpad to bipod, including another scope/mount, then your barrel is most likely toast, sorry man.

In fact, I just had a barral die on me a few weeks back, and it was doing the same kind of thing. It would shoot sometimes, and then it wouldn't. Dead center of a a 10" plate at 750yrds and then, miss, miss, miss, clank again, same hold, same conditions, WTF.

I finally broke out the chronograph and noticed it seemed to have lost some speed (maybe one last check you could try?), as my MV was much slower than it should've been for the weather (it was chrono'ing a touch slower than it did at 70degF and it was 95degF). That, and the barrel also had 2300rds on it, so I didn't exactly have to be Sherlok Holmes either (not bad for the supposedly barrel-burning 6CM).

JMHO, but other than checking for something out of the ordinary (like a carbon ring), most of the "it's not clean enough/properly/how I do it stuff" is all nonsense. Unless of course, as mentioned, you inadvertantly damaged the barrel yourself while cleaning, fucking up the crown, or the chamber (you do use a bore-guide, correct?).

I feel this way because I'm one of the one of the worst at that shit: I clean my barrel every 200-400rds, closer to 200 than 400 if I can help it (dependent on when I think of it and have time) and only ever use patches, Boretech Eliminator, and nylon brushes, that's it, no abrasives ever. I never take longer than 15 mins if I go slow.
IMO cleaning is just maintance to make sure my muzzle velocity doesn't speed up due to carbon build up, and for good ol' keep-mechanical-stuff-clean-so-it'll-work-right housekeeping purposes, not for anything to do with accuracy really. There is nothing any of us can attach to a brush that will do more than metal on metal and a shit-ton of pressure does everytime we pull the trigger. I don't want to change anything anyways, I want to maintain consistency, kind of like with reloading and trying to make the same exact f'ing round over and over so they all shoot the same, that's all.

It's not any sort of mythological "bad barrel break-in problem" either. My barrel break-in procedure consists of running 1-2 dry patches through it and then going and shooting 200-400rds before I clean it, and I seem to break them in perfectly every time.

My $0.02 anyways...

EDIT: Since 1100rds killing a Bartlien 6.5 doesn't seem right, maybe one last thing to look into is: maybe talk to whoever chambered it and find out if it was originally spun up with a shorter/custom freebore? If so, maybe see if they can run the freebore out longer to SAAMI .183" or whatever... with ~800-1100rds on it now, and the throat erosion that comes with that, it may not like the factory rounds and their seating depth anymore?