Help pls, Reloads went to hell after introducing an AMP Annealer in to the mix.

[canuckistaninia]

SO things were going well, my rifle loved my recipe (43.4 grains of varget with a 178 ELD-M, lapua brass, BR2 primers getting me 2667 FPS) and was typically in the half to 3/4 MOA range at 100 yards. To be honest, when I was working up my initial recipe, the rifle shot all loads under 1.2 MOA. I decided to start annealing to bring down the SD and prolong brass life. Since introducing the AMP annealer in to the mix, the SD has dropped from 18 to 6, MV has stayed within 5 FPS but groups have opened up to 1 MOA being "good" and 1.5 being more the norm. The rifle is still performing with old/reference loads continue to shoot half MOA. Any assistance/confirmation of where you'd go next would be appreciated

I'm using a 2nd gen Amp annealer, in AZTEC mode, when I ran the test it spat out code 170 (so that's what I've been using in aztec mode to anneal)


My old process
20 min SS tumble w/soap
lube
decap/resize
trim
chamfer
debur
mandrel die
45 min SS tumble w/soap
prime
load

New process
20 min SS tumble w/soap
anneal
lube
decap/resize
trim
chamfer
debur
mandrel die
45 min SS tumble w/soap
prime
load

I've read that some people are using graphite to lube the inside of the necks before they load, I haven't gone down this road yet, it's the last thing I can think to try, but I'd appreciate some opinions if you guys are willing to share them.

 

[47guy]

ive found the same issue...i resently went back to annealing every time and nothing seemed to shoot as well...my buddy sent me this video and i may be off here but what i take from it is that the annealed brass holds the bullet tighter..more tension...so you need to back off the neck tension...i annealed all my brass sunday and sized it all with a .267 bushing which set the neck with .001 tension...i normally run .002.

i will test this saturday and see how it goes...if i still have the same issues i will just go back to annealing every 4-5 times...strange thing is that when i used a flame to anneal i never remember having these issues when i annealed every time.

 

[LoneWolf_052713]

It sounds like your gun went from a 1 MOA gun to a 1 MOA gun....

Have you checked velocity to ensure you're still in the same node? Also when you anneal, there's less spring back, so you may have changed your neck tension a bit using the same process.

 

[canuckistaninia]

It went from .5-.75 MOA to more of a 1.5 MOA gun.

Velocities are within 5 FPS (2667 FPS with what I'll call proof/old loads I have still on hand) vs 2664 with annealed cases

Bushings have been changed to a "looser" bushing to not work the brass more then I have to, but I'm still running .001 neck tension. For fun I tried some of the tighter neck bushings I had (up to .005 neck tension) without running the mandrel to see if the rifle just wanted more teck tension, but SD's are higher, and accuracy is no better, still 1.5 MOA.

and yes, Base to Ogive seating depth hasn't changed.

 

[918v]

Annealing forms a rough oxide on the inside and outside of the neck. Tumbling does not effectively remove it from the inside of the neck. It increases bullet seating effort and bullet hold.

You need to introduce Imperial dry neck lube to your process prior to bullet seating. So, tumble then dry, then Imperial dry lube, then mandrel expand, then bullet seat.

 

[Steel head]

A bit of dry lube or leave some carbon on the inside of the necks.

 

[spife7980]

While the lube doesnt hurt to say that you "need" it isnt strictly true. I sure dont lube my brass for bullet seating. And especially not just because I annealed it.

You changed your brass condition, obviously your load will change. I imagine a seating depth test would sort it out but possibly you need to work up a new one. No way to tell other than to find out.

 

[ZiaHunter]

Stopped using SS tumbling a couple of years ago due to the neck tension issues I was encountering and only tumble in walnut media and brush the necks with a soft nylon brush afterwards. Adding graphite and/or lube while seating was a PITA and was still encountered varying neck tension. For my LR rifles I use a chamber seating die and a Century 21 Hydro arbor press which lets me know exactly how much seating pressure is applied for each round. Sort rounds for record by seating pressure.

Groups opening up at 100 yards is probably not a neck tension issue if your SD's are that low. Typically neck tension variation becomes an issue at long ranges 600+ causing vertical dispersion.

 

[47guy]

While the lube doesnt hurt to say that you "need" it isnt strictly true. I sure dont lube my brass for bullet seating. And especially not just because I annealed it.

You changed your brass condition, obviously your load will change. I imagine a seating depth test would sort it out but possibly you need to work up a new one. No way to tell other than to find out.

ive ran seating tests with annealed brass in my 6BR and 6BRX with known loads in both and neither would shoot...and by wouldnt i mean they would not shoot their normal 1 hole groups and out farther they opened up as well...ive been fighting this the last couple of weekends now so hoping by reducing neck tension it will solve it.

 

[918v]

It didn’t work when I tried it. Neither did reworking the load and I did not get the accuracy back. Seating bullets against bare annealed necks tripled the bullet seating force and caused seater stem engraving on the bullet nose.

 

[47guy]

It didn’t work when I tried it. Neither did reworking the load and I did not get the accuracy back. Seating bullets against bare annealed necks tripled the bullet seating force and caused seater stem engraving on the bullet nose.

well thats not what i wanted to hear....so when you started using the imperial you got everything back?

 

[918v]

Yes

 

[47guy]

Yes

thanks

 

[antithesis]

Things I am seeing with your process:

• You did not mention that you did or did not verify your should bump after annealing - if the brass was fired a couple of times before annealing the die likely needs to be adjusted.
• SS tumbling messes up the case mouths ever so slightly to really bad depending on the case. You may want to look at chamfer/debur after tumbling.
• SS tumbled brass, UT cleaned brass, or freshly annealed brass needs to have the neck brushed before seating.
• Using a mandrel is a debatable process and annealed brass is going to move easier. I suspect it is more prone to being knocked out of concentricity if there was any resistance when you did this step.

 

[918v]

Also make sure you are not over annealing the necks. The settings are for specific lots of brass. Sometimes lots vary in neck thickness. If you over anneal the accuracy will go away too.

 

[straightshooter1]

SO things were going well, my rifle loved my recipe (43.4 grains of varget with a 178 ELD-M, lapua brass, BR2 primers getting me 2667 FPS) and was typically in the half to 3/4 MOA range at 100 yards. To be honest, when I was working up my initial recipe, the rifle shot all loads under 1.2 MOA. I decided to start annealing to bring down the SD and prolong brass life. Since introducing the AMP annealer in to the mix, the SD has dropped from 18 to 6, MV has stayed within 5 FPS but groups have opened up to 1 MOA being "good" and 1.5 being more the norm. The rifle is still performing with old/reference loads continue to shoot half MOA. Any assistance/confirmation of where you'd go next would be appreciated

I'm using a 2nd gen Amp annealer, in AZTEC mode, when I ran the test it spat out code 170 (so that's what I've been using in aztec mode to anneal)


My old process
20 min SS tumble w/soap
lube
decap/resize
trim
chamfer
debur
mandrel die
45 min SS tumble w/soap
prime
load

New process
20 min SS tumble w/soap
anneal
lube
decap/resize
trim
chamfer
debur
mandrel die
45 min SS tumble w/soap
prime
load

I've read that some people are using graphite to lube the inside of the necks before they load, I haven't gone down this road yet, it's the last thing I can think to try, but I'd appreciate some opinions if you guys are willing to share them.

As previously mentioned, annealing will leave an oxide coating inside and out. So, If you anneal FIRST and then clean your brass (this is what I do and get sub .5 MOA's with my .308. . . and I don't even lube the inside of necks), I'd bet this likely the source of your issue. Also, I'd suggest doing your trimming, chamfering and deburing AFTER you do your last SS tumbling.

PS - here's my process:

decap
anneal
60 min SS tumble w/soap & lemonshine
uniform primer pockets
lube case
resize (.002 shoulder bump), without pin and expander ball
15 min dry tumble in rice media
run mandrel die
trim, chamfer, debur (all at once with Tri-Way Trimmer)
prime
load

only other thing to add is a one time operation after fire forming, which is turning the necks to .0125

 

[ToddKS]

Here is the order that I would recommend. Also, if you are tumbling with pins, I recommend that you change to the Southern Shine chip media. It gets the job done faster. You want to absolutely minimize tumbling time. It affects the case mouth.

Anneal (Yes, I do this step dirty)
Lube
Decap/Size (body and neck)
Prewash (I use lanolin based case lube, putting it in a bucket with soap for a couple minutes gets the lube off and keeps it from fouling the stainless media)
Tumble with Southern Shine Media (7 minutes)
Trim/chamfer
Mandrel
Prime
Load

This is what works for me.

 

[Jjviperzar1]

Thanks to those sharing their process and reasonings. I’m just added annealing to my process. This could keep the trial and error to a minimum.

 

[Archwarder]

Have you tried emailing AMP to see what they recommend?

 

[samb300]

@918v do you dip the case neck into the Imperial "application media" pellets? Then wipe the excess powder off the exterior of the neck/shoulder?

Or would it be easier to dip the base of the bullet into the Imperial powder and seat?

I'm going to be switching to mandrel neck expanding after FL sizing, rather than using the expander ball in the sizing die. I typically tumble in clean dry media to remove the sizing lube prior to loading the case. Since the dry media has some case polish in it, I haven't noticed any really stiff seating bullets.

This is (was?) my plan:
- Decap
- SS tumble
- AMP Anneal
- FL Size
- Neck mandrel
- Trim/chamfer
- Dry tumble w/case polish
- Prime/powder/bullet

But would it be better to consider???
- Decap
- SS tumble
- AMP Anneal
- FL Size
- Trim/chamfer
- Dry tumble w/case polish
- Apply Imperial dry lube in neck
- Neck mandrel
- Prime/powder/bullet

 

[canuckistaninia]

thanks everyone for your opinions, I'll make a couple changes in my process, and see how it goes/try again to work up a load to see if I can get her back in the .5-.75 MOA range

Namely,
Anneal first (with dirty cases)
lube
decap/resize
trim
chamfer
debur
45 min SS tumble w/soap
brush necks and/or imperial dry lube (I've got both, so I'll try both)
mandrel die
prime
load

 

[samb300]

I can't in good conscience anneal or size dirty...shooting PRS type matches and picking up dented cases out of mud make me shudder at putting one of them in an AMP or through a sizing die. I know a lot of guys do it to save a step, but 95% of my cases hit the ground/dirt/grass first. Plus I'm a little OCD ?

 

[LoneWolf_052713]

I can't in good conscience anneal or size dirty...shooting PRS type matches and picking up dented cases out of mud make me shudder at putting one of them in an AMP or through a sizing die. I know a lot of guys do it to save a step, but 95% of my cases hit the ground/dirt/grass first. Plus I'm a little OCD ?

I always decap and tumble before starting any other processes...

 

[TheGerman]

For the people mentioning dry neck lube; do you mean during sizing or seating?

And if for seating, I'd assume you'd get some sort of difference in FPS as opposed to non dry lubed cases as you've introduced a lube between the bullet and the case metal thats holding it.

 

[samb300]

For the people mentioning dry neck lube; do you mean during sizing or seating?

And if for seating, I'd assume you'd get some sort of difference in FPS as opposed to non dry lubed cases as you've introduced a lube between the bullet and the case metal thats holding it.

The Imperial dry lube is being suggested both for:
- Lubrication for mandrel neck ID expansion
- Lube barrier between bullet and neck during seating

 

[sinister]

Does your sizing die do the necks as well, then you're using a mandrel to work your neck a second time? If so, you're working the case neck three times (sizing, pulling the decapping head back through, then mandrel-sizing)?

I concur with trimming and case mouth chamfering after tumbling.

 

[samb300]

Does your sizing die do the necks as well, then you're using a mandrel to work your neck a second time?

The FL sizing die would size the OD of the neck down, then the separate operation with the mandrel would expand the ID of the neck back out to your desired neck tension (i.e. 0.002"). This pushes any neck wall thickness inconsistencies out and in theory "grips" the bullet as evenly as possible without neck turning.

You can control the amount the neck is sized with the FL die by using a bushing or a honed Forster die, so as to not over-work the brass. The ID dimension would be controlled by the expander mandel diameter. 21st Century now offers mandrels in 0.0005" increments to fine tune neck tension this way.

The whole purpose of doing this 2-step operation is to eliminate the use of the "button" in the FL sizing die, which can introduce runout in the brass when the button is dragged back out of the neck after the case is sized.

 

[canuckistaninia]

Does your sizing die do the necks as well, then you're using a mandrel to work your neck a second time? If so, you're working the case neck three times (sizing, pulling the decapping head back through, then mandrel-sizing)?

I concur with trimming and case mouth chamfering after tumbling.

so I choose a neck bushing that should give me .002-.003 neck tension and I do not run an expander ball on the sizing die, then I run the mandrel, so the neck gets worked twice. You could just use the sizing button on the die, but from what I've read, you get more runout using the button then a mandrel. But regardless of which way you go, mandrel or button, you are squeezing the neck down, then expanding it so working it twice.

 

[Snuby642]

I have read many threads like this.

Annealing process aside the common denominator is wet tumble in ss untill a surgically clean piece of brass is had. I think annealing compounds this to some extent.

I think this is changing how the bullet engages the lands. For example dry humping its way out of the neck with increased initial pressure slamming further into the lands before proceeding.

This is not showing much on a chrono but I think group size doesn't lie.

Imperial dry lube is cheap and easy to use, certainly worth tring before chasing set up dies that were working.

I belive the end result of jump is what is changing and why it's not seen by crono.

Imho

 

[antithesis]

Under AMP's FAQ (Should annealing be done before or after sizing? > Lube) they say they do not recommend dry media graphite because it does not stick to annealed brass very well.

 

[ToddKS]

I can't in good conscience anneal or size dirty...shooting PRS type matches and picking up dented cases out of mud make me shudder at putting one of them in an AMP or through a sizing die. I know a lot of guys do it to save a step, but 95% of my cases hit the ground/dirt/grass first. Plus I'm a little OCD ?

If the cases have been in the mud then an initial rinse is required. During the match I toss my empties into a pocket in my pack. By the time I get home the loose dirt is pretty much off the cases (I usually have to vacuum out that part of my pack). I was unsure about annealing and sizing dirty until I actually did it.

 

[samb300]

Under AMP's FAQ (Should annealing be done before or after sizing? > Lube) they say they do not recommend dry media graphite because it does not stick to annealed brass very well.

This seems to be directed at using dry graphite for FL sizing, rather than bullet seating. But it’s interesting to note, especially if the dry graphite is used for the neck ID mandrel operation.

 

[Archwarder]

What ever neck tension you had your die set to prior to annealing will need to be adjusted because the annealed case will not have the same amount of spring back an unannealed case has.

This is shown pretty well in the latest amp article here:

How Induction Annealing Works | Under The Microscope | AMP

View the latest articles from AMP Annealing. Get tips and tricks from our R&D. Here we upload articles to provide your the best possible information on innovations in the annealing process.

www.ampannealing.com

 

[918v]

@918v do you dip the case neck into the Imperial "application media" pellets? Then wipe the excess powder off the exterior of the neck/shoulder?

Or would it be easier to dip the base of the bullet into the Imperial powder and seat?

I'm going to be switching to mandrel neck expanding after FL sizing, rather than using the expander ball in the sizing die. I typically tumble in clean dry media to remove the sizing lube prior to loading the case. Since the dry media has some case polish in it, I haven't noticed any really stiff seating bullets.

This is (was?) my plan:
- Decap
- SS tumble
- AMP Anneal
- FL Size
- Neck mandrel
- Trim/chamfer
- Dry tumble w/case polish
- Prime/powder/bullet

But would it be better to consider???
- Decap
- SS tumble
- AMP Anneal
- FL Size
- Trim/chamfer
- Dry tumble w/case polish
- Apply Imperial dry lube in neck
- Neck mandrel
- Prime/powder/bullet

The latter. I dip the case into the pellets. Btw, dump a third of the pellets out so you can shake it effectively.

 

[918v]

What ever neck tension you had your die set to prior to annealing will need to be adjusted because the annealed case will not have the same amount of spring back an unannealed case has.

This is shown pretty well in the latest amp article here:

How Induction Annealing Works | Under The Microscope | AMP

View the latest articles from AMP Annealing. Get tips and tricks from our R&D. Here we upload articles to provide your the best possible information on innovations in the annealing process.

www.ampannealing.com

No need to adjust neck tension if you anneal to a semi-hard state like 1x fired.

The nice thing about the AMP is you have precise control over how hard the neck ends up.

 

[918v]

Under AMP's FAQ (Should annealing be done before or after sizing? > Lube) they say they do not recommend dry media graphite because it does not stick to annealed brass very well.

They are full of shit

 

[sinister]

If you use a bushing die you only work the neck once. A .244 for 5.56mm, I don't for a 7.62.

 

[47guy]

so i got out yesterday when i got off work and shot 5 rounds with .001 necks...normally run .002...a couple of things different...first i had my smith add a little free bore for the 108g bergers on monday....i was shooting/chambered for 105 hybrids but they just were not shooting up to a BRXs potential and ive been wanting to play with the H4350.



i know this is only a small sample but its looking like the .001 reduction in neck tension might just cure my issues...if not i have a set of 21st centery mandrels being delivered today and i got the imperial dry lube yesterday.

the one shot just outta the group to the right was #3 and was me...the one in the orange was round #1 cold/cleaned to metal bore.

and someone said that the dry lube does not stick to annealed brass...this is annealed brass...dip neck with a half twist then tap neck on paper.


i will report back sometime this weekend or monday with how all this works out and what actually fixes my high-ish ESs.

 

[Snuby642]

I set the cap on a disposable rag and tap the case gently into it to capture grafite and media balls.

Cheapskate. Lol

Looks like you are back in business to me.

 

[918v]

I dunk 3 cases at a time, several times, then tap the trio against the lip of the container.

 

[Snuby642]

I'm +60 holding one still is all I can manage.

Show off. Lol

 

[Darkside-Six]

Since nobody else has asked, when is the last time you cleaned your barrel?

I know it’s a 308 but when it has its carbon build up that could cause your groups to open up.
I only say this because nothing in your old or new process that I see would cause groups to open up.
I wet tumble in SS and sometimes a anneal and sometimes a don’t and I don’t ever put any line or anything on the inside of my necks. I have seen zero difference in group size or accuracy as a result.
Just my .02

 

[Milo 2.5]

I anneal with amp every firing too, I clean brass before doing so, then tumble for 2+hrs after in corn media to remove oxidation, then size, clean again.
Being I use bushing dies, no mandrel, if I do not like felt seating force, I go down a bushing size, for more consistent feel. Rare I have accuracy issues, but I only size 10 cases to start with, fire those to verify, make adj if needed.

 

[47guy]

i went out last night again after work but just to check velocities with the H4350 and the numbers are right where they should be nothing odd but again its only 4 rounds

i shot 36.1 first and 36 last

 

[Snuby642]

This spray grafite, does it have a drying time?
How do you get into the neck only?

The loose grafite is a little tedious.

 

[antithesis]

They are full of shit

Curious, have you tried using graphite after annealing or only after annealing + cleaning like the order you suggested above? Also, do you own an AMP or are you using a different method?

 

[918v]

I clean, anneal, body size, collet neck size, graphite lube, mandrel neck expand.

 

[spife7980]

I clean, anneal, body size, collet neck size, graphite lube, mandrel neck expand.

Not to derail the thread but... collet and then a second mandrel step?
Because the collet is undersized and doesnt open it up as much as you would like which the mandrel does?

 

[memilanuk]

Because the collet is undersized and doesnt open it up as much as you would like which the mandrel does?

That'd be weird, unless he's running *super* light neck tension... every LCD I've ever used tended towards fairly minimal neck tension - as in I could damn near push the bullets back in the neck by hand.

 

[918v]

Yes the collet is undersized. This way the direction of spring back is toward the bullet.