Help with my OCW please.

[Drummerjay08]

Ok here we go. I'm pretty new to the hand loading game and I'd like some input/help with what I've came up with in my OCW testing vs what most other people are using as a charge weight. Here's what I used in my tests:

Remington 700 ADL 26" Varmint all factory .308
Federal brass from factory Gold Medal Match once fired from my rifle, FL sized with .001 shoulder bump
175gr SMK all seated to 2.800 OAL
IMR 4064
Federal Champion LR primers

Now I ran the test starting with 44gr and moved in .3gr increments up to 45.2gr. No pressure signs on any of the rounds. After analyzing the results I decided 44.6gr should be the OCW and I would tune it in with seating depth changes from there...then I started reading. I'd say 95% of all the load recipes I've read on here and everywhere else for that matter with similar components are nowhere near 44.6gr. Most are somewhere between 41.5gr and 43.5gr. So my question here is should I drop down to say 41.5gr and run another test up to 43.5gr? Is 44.6gr too hot. I'm looking for a good long range load. Hopefully I'm on the right track. Just need a little guidance and there's no better place to get it than right here

 

[Macmathews]

My current load is 178 Amax's over 44.4 grains of varget.. No pressure issues.. But its VERY cold here right now !
Not really sure how 4064 compares

Kyle

 

[EXTREMEPREJUDICE]

No pressure signs on any of the rounds.

If you are certain of this then it's not too hot for your chamber. By starting near max then there is no way to tell if you have another accuracy node at a lesser charge. If you start near min value then you are able to tell if there is more than one accuracy node and then work from there.

 

[flashhole]

Kudos to you for paying attention to what others are doing but it does not have much relevance to your gun and your components. Like EJ said, if you are certain the load you like is not over pressure start fine tuning it. I've done lots of OCW tests starting low and moving up in charge. Not all guns have two (or more) accuracy nodes. Many do but I've always gone with higher velocity if the accuracy is there.

 

[SOE_technician]

Ok here we go. I'm pretty new to the hand loading game and I'd like some input/help with what I've came up with in my OCW testing vs what most other people are using as a charge weight. Here's what I used in my tests:

Remington 700 ADL 26" Varmint all factory .308
Federal brass from factory Gold Medal Match once fired from my rifle, FL sized with .001 shoulder bump
175gr SMK all seated to 2.800 OAL
IMR 4064
Federal Champion LR primers

Now I ran the test starting with 44gr and moved in .3gr increments up to 45.2gr. No pressure signs on any of the rounds. After analyzing the results I decided 44.6gr should be the OCW and I would tune it in with seating depth changes from there...then I started reading. I'd say 95% of all the load recipes I've read on here and everywhere else for that matter with similar components are nowhere near 44.6gr. Most are somewhere between 41.5gr and 43.5gr. So my question here is should I drop down to say 41.5gr and run another test up to 43.5gr? Is 44.6gr too hot. I'm looking for a good long range load. Hopefully I'm on the right track. Just need a little guidance and there's no better place to get it than right here

Glad to see a fellow new reloader, I am just getting into it myself literally since Xmas. But I am using very similar components.
Savage 10 FCP-SR 22'' 5R
155 grn Amax (to get acclimated to reloading before getting into Lapua 155&175 Scenar)
IMR 4064( I went up in in increments to 46.5 since the Nosler MAX is 48!! lol very compressed load.)

Hope you get it pinned down and enjoy reloading man

 

[Drummerjay08]

Thanks for the quick replies everyone! I am absolutely certain there are no pressure signs on any of these loads. I carefully inspected the brass after each shot and saw no signs whatsoever so I think I may stick with this load. Then again I may look for a node with a lower charge so I can have options. 44.3, 44.6 and 44.9 all shot basically the same with the same group distance to center, the same horizontal offset and the same vertical offset. All the groups were about .75 MOA but the 44 group was a little further left and slightly higher and the 45.2 group was a lot higher compared to the middle three. Now hopefully when it starts warming up some it won't throw it too far off. I've only been handloading for about a week and a half now and I can already see how technical and precise things must be and I absolutely love it! Being a machinist and dealing with precision every day means this is right up my alley lol. TNBLUERAIDER44 good luck in your handloading journey. We may be able to help each other along the way!

Now another question. I'm planning on getting some Lapua brass asap so how much of a difference is that gonna make? Enough to have to rework the load? I realize anytime you change ANY component it will affect the load and even different lots of the same components will too but as to how much it changes things I have no clue yet.

 

[gstaylorg]

Several things to consider here. First, no two loads produced by different individuals using different equipment will be the same, even if the same components are used. That is why you should always start well below max [safe] pressure and work your way up in small increments. That way, you should start to see pressure signs well before something catastrophic happens.

Second, other factors specific to your reloads can have a big impact on max charge weight and pressure, including lot-to-lot powder variation, ambient temperature, seating depth, barrel characteristics, and the case capacity of the specific type brass you're using (some brass is much thicker than others, with less powder capacity for a given seating depth). Specifying a COAL of 2.800" isn't all that helpful without knowing your exact chamber specs. Bullet OAL can vary between lots, and what's more important is where the ogive is in relation to the lands of you rifling, which is why base-to-ogive measurements that give the relationship between the ogive and lands of your specific rifle would be more informative. I'm guessing at 2.800 COAL you're jumping the 175s a fair bit, but that's only a crude guess.

Finally, what velocity were you getting with the 44.6 gr load? As a rough estimate from a 26" pipe, I'd expect you should be seeing somewhere in the neighborhood of 2650 to 2750 fps from that load. The FGMM 175 SMK box velocity value for a 24" test barrel is 2600 fps. You are running a couple inches more barrel, and probably at least a couple grains more powder (the FGMM load has been listed at various sites online as being 41.75 gr IMR4064). The velocity can tell you a lot and if you are seeing MVs any higher than 2725-2750 fps from your load, you are likely overpressure even if you haven't yet seen any obvious pressure signs. However, if you are absolutely certain there are no pressure signs, the velocity isn't excessively high, and you didn't do your testing on a day with much colder temps than you normally expect to shoot in, you should probably be fine. You can always back off a few tenths if going to be shooting on a day much warmer than it was when you did the testing.

Edited to add - I just read your latest response. Case capacity will not be exactly the same between Lapua and Fed brass, although IIRC, they are closer to each other than they are to Winchester brass, which has noticeably higher case capacity. If you're planning on switching to Lapua brass, the safest thing to do is to redo your OCW with the new brass, again starting well below max.

 

[flashhole]

You're there dude, nice job. Now you have your optimal charge range and if you make a dipper cup for charging cases you don't have to measure each charge. I love dipper cups. I use them for all my rifle loads once I determine the OCW.

 

[Drummerjay08]

I haven't got a chrono yet although I know I need one so I have no idea of my velocities. I will say I can tell the 44.6 gr load feels hotter than FGMM. I have a bullet comparator on the way so I can measure base to ogive and a seating depth guage similar to the one made by Sinclair so I can measure how deep to seat the bullet to get consistent distance from the lands. That being said when I get those tools in and some Lapua brass I do believe I'll back down to 41 gr, seat all test rounds with .010 jump to the lands and work up from there. As stated above I realize seating depth affects pressure so I think dropping the charge and redoing the test is a good idea. I realize COAL isn't at all the best way to seat bullets for accuracy with the exception of magazine length being the limiting factor there. The more I think about this the more I want to do it differently lol.

 

[SOE_technician]

Yea dude I just got my second batch ready to charge and load for this weekend and the more I think about things the more I dig deeper and deeper I am not a Machinist but I am nerd lol just graduated with my BS in Biotechnology and I've been measuring and counting lab shit for the past 4 years lol.
Going to pic me up some 155 scenars and some lapua brass tomorrow. From the guys on here I hear the lapua does make a good bit of difference since the cases are much more consistent as are the rounds. The cases are also said to be impacted far less from repeated reloading then traditional stuff. I get to stretch my rifle this sunday got permission from a landowner who has a 1120 stretch ! gunna be taking some black hills gold 178 with me to shoot too since Im more trying to do OCW with my reload for now but im gunna sling a few to see.

 

[Drummerjay08]

You're making me jealous talking about stretching your gun lol. I only have access to 800 yards right now but I have a spot scoped out I'm gonna try to get permission to shoot on.

I'm gonna try to get some Bergers and Scenars to work loads up for too. I love it I love it I love it!! Super stoked!

 

[SOE_technician]

You're making me jealous talking about stretching your gun lol. I only have access to 800 yards right now but I have a spot scoped out I'm gonna try to get permission to shoot on.

I'm gonna try to get some Bergers and Scenars to work loads up for too. I love it I love it I love it!! Super stoked!

I haven't had access to this distance till just few days ago I am pretty pumped. hope you get the place your looking at too.
yea I didn't wanna start off with Scenars and Bergers since I am still a "rookie". But I am reading and learning constantly so hopefully
I can apply things I learn.

What reloading stuff did ya start out with JW i went with a RCBS Explorer kit plus a few things , not the press I wanted but it actually works great. anyway jw

 

[Drummerjay08]

I hear ya on the rookie part. I'm in the same boat. I've been reading as much as I possibly can from every source I can think of for about the past 4 months and I've still barely scratched the surface I'm sure. Most of my biggest help has came from here at the Hide.

I really pieced together my own kit. Lee Classic Cast press with Hornady lock and load conversion bushings and lock rings on my dies. Most everything else is RCBS but other brands like Redding and Lyman are mixed in there too. I just got everything I needed to start handloading and figured I could expand on that. Only powder I could find was IMR 4064 at Bass Pro Shops at the time and they only had one pound of it. I grabbed it off the shelf and guarded it with my life lol. I started with the match kings too because of a little cheaper price but still great bullets.

 

[Pinecone]

If you read the entire OCW method, it suggests deciding on the max load and then starting 10% below the max. So with a 45.2 max, you should have started at around 40.7

If you have a node at 44.6, there should be lower nodes around 43.3 and 42.0

 

[Drummerjay08]

If you read the entire OCW method, it suggests deciding on the max load and then starting 10% below the max. So with a 45.2 max, you should have started at around 40.7

If you have a node at 44.6, there should be lower nodes around 43.3 and 42.0

To be honest I can't even remember how I came up with a 44 gr starting charge. I don't remember. I realize now that I screwed up. I'll redo the whole test this weekend.

 

[Sniper Uncle]

Get a chrono, man. You will learn a lot from that. I personally suggest the Maneto-Speed version. I have the cheaper of the two models sold by CAMELOT-TACTICAL.COM here on the hide. Ray will treat you right. Chronos can be used in conjunction with your load development to give you an idea if you are over-pressure or not----very high velocity will point towards high pressure. It will also tell you if your OCW results are skewed or not---you might have gotten an abnormal velocity difference between charge weights, you may have another factor influencing your results, and abnormal chrono results can help identify this early. This will help with removing a frustration factor later when you go to do groups off the OCW node you identified. What if you identified a "node," but when you went to do groups you found that they didn't group well, and upon chrono-ing the rounds you found that the velocity was lower or higher than you thought, thus indicating that you weren't really in the node on the OCW?

 

[Thumper580]

Drop down to around 42.0gr range for 4064 with the 175 and try it. A lot of people here use Varget and it's abit slower than 4064.

 

[Drummerjay08]

Get a chrono, man. You will learn a lot from that. I personally suggest the Maneto-Speed version. I have the cheaper of the two models sold by CAMELOT-TACTICAL.COM here on the hide. Ray will treat you right. Chronos can be used in conjunction with your load development to give you an idea if you are over-pressure or not----very high velocity will point towards high pressure. It will also tell you if your OCW results are skewed or not---you might have gotten an abnormal velocity difference between charge weights, you may have another factor influencing your results, and abnormal chrono results can help identify this early. This will help with removing a frustration factor later when you go to do groups off the OCW node you identified. What if you identified a "node," but when you went to do groups you found that they didn't group well, and upon chrono-ing the rounds you found that the velocity was lower or higher than you thought, thus indicating that you weren't really in the node on the OCW?

I'm gonna order a chrono next week. I'll check out the one you mentioned and compare it with others. Anyone else have suggestions for a good chrono? I don't want to spend a fortune on one but I also want one that works and works reliably.

Drop down to around 42.0gr range for 4064 with the 175 and try it. A lot of people here use Varget and it's abit slower than 4064.

I'm going to finish prepping some brass tonight so I can run the OCW again tomorrow. I'm gonna drop down to 41.5gr and work in .3gr increments all the way up to around 43.5-44gr. Hopefully I'll be able to find a good node in that range.

 

[Sniper Uncle]

I have a Pro-Chrony? I think that's what it's called. It works fairly well, but sometimes gives odd readings when there is a cloud passing or such like. The Magneto-Speeds are rather more expensive, but they read regardless of the light conditions, and are touted to be very accurate. I haven't heard or read any negative press about them. On the cheap chronos, you get what you pay for. A lot of people suggest an Ohler, but they a re expensive, too.

 

[oathkeeper]

Will the magneto speed throw the shot off? I'm not saying it is from the magnetic field but from the fact that it is on the barrel. That is why we try to free float it right?

-Dick-

 

[Sniper Uncle]

Some say that it may deflect the group upwards just a bit, others say there is no deflection. All the shots are affected the same way, and think of the Magneto-Speed as a barrel-end addition, say like a muzzle brake. Anyway, all I have heard, read, or talked to say not to worry about the possible deflection, as you are concerned about group size, not POI while developing loads. POI can be adjusted after the load is settled on. I did not see deflection on my 338LM, but I haven't used it that much either, so no scientific data from me.

 

[Drummerjay08]

I like the idea of the Magneto Speed. Being unaffected by light is a huge plus and so is the fact that it attaches directly to the barrel. Since every shot fired with the chrono attached will be affected in exactly the same way I can't see how it would affect grouping at all. It's a little more expensive than some of the other conventional chronos but its so compact and you don't have the hassle of much of a set up process. I think this may be the way to go.

Someone with experience with these chime in here: How rigid is the Magneto Speed after its attached? Have you ever had problems with recoil moving it or having to remount/reset it after X number of shots? That's my only concern here.

 

[Pinecone]

Here is a link to a thread with an Excel spreadsheet I made fo doing OCW workups.

You can enter several max loads and pick what you want, then it sets up all the intervals for loading.

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/snipers-hide-reloading/193057-ocw-excel-template.html

 

[Drummerjay08]

Here is a link to a thread with an Excel spreadsheet I made fo doing OCW workups.

You can enter several max loads and pick what you want, then it sets up all the intervals for loading.

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/snipers-hide-reloading/193057-ocw-excel-template.html

Well done sir! I'll be using that for...well...ever lol. Thanks Pinecone!