Help With Shooting with m91/30

[BuLLzi]

Hello All, I'm Newer to Snipers hide, One of my guns is a Mosin Nagant 91/30. Ive been shooting since i was about 6, Im 22. And I'm Having some major trouble with this gun. I know its an older gun and all, and it seems to me to be very different then anything I've really shot before. I was wondering if anyone has some tips, or hints on how to get better with this gun. IT is sporterized. I have a bi-pod, sand bag for back stock. New stock. Scope. Cheek Rest. Also I am Left handed as well. Well Any Advice would be appreciated. And pelase noa nswers liek get a new gun, I have other guns. I would just like to be better with this one, and I know it can be done. Thank you

 

[Wannashootit]

Re: Help With Shooting with m91/30

Where to begin....
The 91/30 can be a very decent shooter- IF you're working up from an action with a tight bore. If the bore's worn, or if the crown is damaged, etc. you gotta fix the basics first.

My sporter shoots 2-1/2" at 200M. Not a precision rifle by any means- but nearly MOA which ain't too bad for a 70 year old rifle.
Ammunition is key. The surplus ammo can be "OK" if you find what yours likes (some guys seem to prefer the lead core), but I handload match-grade ammo. You should slug your bore (go to 7.62x54r.net for info) to determine the best bullet size. Most will shoot .311 pills the best, while .308- most commercial ammo- won't hit the broad side of the barn...

Honestly, I'd get rid of the ATI plastic stock.
I put mine in a Boyd's stock.
Bedded the receiver and installed pillars.
Get a decent scope mount- lose the scout setup (is that a LER scope on that mount? ). Jmeck mount if you want one that you don't have to drill and tap, or the Rock Solid mount for d&t installation. You'll need the bent bolt...

Timney makes a fantastic trigger for the rifle. Well worth the $$.

All of these are things that you would do to accurize ANY bolt action rifle. Nothing unique about the Mosin-Nagant in that regard.

Good luck.

 

[roggom]

Re: Help With Shooting with m91/30

The above pretty much sums it up. I have my Remmys, but I also shoot stock and MN sporters. Other than good marksmanship techniques, reloading is the best way to shrink groups. Most Izzy and Tula bores can slug out from .312 to .315 surplus ammo is from .308 to about .311. So depending on what your bore is, you may have to settle for 2 to 3 moa at best. Reloading allows you to select the appropriate size, weight and speed of your projectile. You may lose some range, but gain some accuracy.

 

[38Revolver]

Re: Help With Shooting with m91/30

A .38 pistol brush fits the barrel nicely and doesn't take as much effort to push while cleaning out all the dirt.

A 20 gauge shotgun brush fits the chamber where the case sits. It is worth turning that brush until it shines.

I am convinced the sticky bolt syndrome comes from the lip on the front of the magazine well, when you over tighten the screws holding the action together. That lip catches and when you are horsing on a gummed up case, the bottom edge of the bolt face gets caught on the little lip if it sticks up at all.

Your trigger will feel a lot smoother if you mirror polish the top of the trigger spring and sear. The back of the sear and the square block on the underside of the bolt should be mirror polished. Most of the creep is the trigger riding on the spring. The last of it is the back of the sear. That work gets you to a surprise break, without the creep... still about a mile long and spongy.

Your bolt will work smoother if you lightly polish the locking lugs. A bent bolt handle will do even more. After you fire, raising the bolt is stiff because of the spring inside the bolt. You can polish a bit on the sloping cams at the back of the bolt body. Also pay attention to the rotating surfaces when you detail strip the bolt. A ceramic stone with a flat side is handy.

Cocking takes a fair bit of force, but the bolt should slide when you tip the rifle up and down. Chambering a round should be finger tip pressure.

You can ease loading, one at a time without a stripper clip by filing a bevel on the back lip of the magazine so that the case rim doesn't hang up. Taking the machining marks off the scallop of the loading gate also does good things. When loading it may help to use your finger tips to force the round down all the way into the magazine, past the finger that keeps the rounds in the bottom down preventing a double feed so that the next round doesn't have to overcome both springs.

I like my Rock Solid brand scope mount, and bought their bent bolt body. A drill press and a 10-32 tap are required. You may have to file down the left side of the receiver on the very top tip above the third bolt hole. The mount is solid, but it does flex if it hits the top of the receiver while tightening it down. This will let you reach out a bit further, as the elevation adjustment will be closer to centered.

Your crown is probably all boogered up. You can fix it with a few light passes with a smooth mill file, and a brass screw chucked in a drill loaded with valve grinding compound. Perhaps not perfect, but better than one that looks like its been dragged through a gravel lot.

 

[38Revolver]

Re: Help With Shooting with m91/30

Oh... Polishing locking lugs changes your head space, so make sure you aren't removing material so much as knocking down the high places and tooling marks.

 

[BuLLzi]

Re: Help With Shooting with m91/30

Hey all thanks for the great advice. Especially with the timney trigger, thats probably my best bet becuase my trigger is so stiff the gun actaully moves when u pull it, my barrel is in good condition and bore. I actually shoot groups about 2 inches apart at 130 yards. but accuracy needs help. Its an ncstar scope, i know i need a new one. As for scope set up, ive tried alot and have had problems with all except this one, they all fall off from recoil. I may look into these boyds stocks tho, thank you!

 

[Saiga76]

Re: Help With Shooting with m91/30

I would have a smith check the barrel for you. Should not cost you much to have it looked at. Maybe a re crown on it will help. About how many rounds have you put through it> Do you use corrosive ammo and do you clean it regularly?

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Help With Shooting with m91/30

The Mosin is not hard to shoot, just different. I instruct it (as well as other surplus military rifles) as a CMP GSM Master Instructor.

Assuming you have a good barrel, they'll shoot quite well. But like I said, a bit different.

The bolt handle is odd compaired to other bolt guns, when you open it, the handle sticks straight up. Plus it sets farther from the rear then most. For any other bolt guns I teach "not to remove the gun from the shoulder when operating the bolt. BUT, I can't reach the bolt to work it without droping the stock from my shoulder.

Like other bolt guns, you don't operate the bolt by the numbers, (1 life, 2 pull back, etc etc) you use "ONE" smooth motion.

If you remember the game you played at kids, where your hands are out flat, palm up, and try to slap the hand of the other guy above you. That's the same motion (almost) you use in operating the bolt, palm up, in one smooth motion, rotate the hand which pulls the bolt back, the continue to roll the palm which pushes the bolt home and down.

This is accompolished by lots of dry fire, working the bolt. I know this is going to sound silly, but the best guy I've seen working the bolt on a mosin was a guy who would watch a vcr tape of All Quiet on the Western Front, over and over again, dry firing at the Germans as they came over the wall.

Start slow keeping it smooth until you get to where you can do it fast in one SMOOTH MOTION.

Loading is also different. Hard to push the five rounds in from the clip. What you want to do is set the clip in the clip guide, push down with your thumb while you pull up on the tip of the first round with your fore finger.

Again practice will make everything quick and smooth. Get 5 dummy rounds and practice loading. Pretty some you'll be almost as fast as loading from a stripper clip in a 1903 Springfield.

I like the mosin for offhand. The long barrel kinds of dampens movement.

Like I said, its learning to work the gun. It'll shoot for you.

Luckily, this can all be done without spending a great deal of money on ammo. Its better accomplished by dry firing.

 

[Guest]

Re: Help With Shooting with m91/30

The Timney is worth the bucks an install time. Another thing I did was change my M44 an 91/30 to cock on closing, instead of opening. Way faster cycling for timed stages/targets. The aftermarket stocks are good but all lack in the recoil pad department. A Limb-saver slip on, works wonders. I'm flush on surplus brass case, yellow tip, an both of my Mosins love it. I hand load for mine, but the yellow tip shoots so good and a shot or three of Windex is good until the next session.

 

[roggom]

Re: Help With Shooting with m91/30

As for the dovetail mount, try a leapers one piece scope base. Its made for rimfire, but the mount is 70mm long, this way you have the whole 70mm of surface contact on the dovetail. You can find a scout scope thread over at gun and game dot com. Also, once you fit the base on the dovetail, notch a small groove directly over the forward pinhole, and then drive on of the retaining pins back into the base. Your mount will not move again.

This may be the root of the problem, as you scope is moving from the heavy recoil.

You can find the mounts at optics planet, or at bass pro shop (may be another brand)

Here are two of my rifles one with a Jmeck, and the other with the leapers mount (scout scoped). Not to hi-jack, but as a reference as to how the mounts look.

By roggom at 2011-09-23

By roggom at 2011-09-23

 

[BuLLzi]

Re: Help With Shooting with m91/30

Yes I clean it regularly like crazy, not over due it but atleast everytiome its shotten its only has about 500 rounds, and the barrel was checked by a smith in my town, a good friend, and he says its in excellent condition for a gun that old, but i could still have it recrowned. I do use corrissive ammo sometimes, but i clean it properly with amonia, and then i use hopps number 9 and a bore spray. if im doing anything wrong lemme know

 

[BuLLzi]

Re: Help With Shooting with m91/30

Ya the way my scope is on now it doesnt have the pin back in but we saudered the clamp to the dovetail rail so it aint moving no more, aqnd i used titelock auto, and auto threadlocker becuase the heat was actually melting the old titelock right off! The scope is good now, i just need a better quality scope, i have one in mind ive seen already. the timney trigger does sound like the best idea to me still seeing as my trigger feels liek a ridiculous 14 lbs lol, and its so stiff the gun slide when u pull it making it impossible to hit exactly what you were aiming at. as for ammo i found a surplus that has a green shell with a non soft tip and my gun seems to loved it but the shop near me has it few and far between, i do not really understaind all the grains and the .000 numbers so if someone could explain ammo to me thatd be great! Very nice pics to the guy who posted his gun. I know the stocks arnt in favor by many people, especailly the plastic but seeing as im working with a budget it seemed cheaper to make a sporter for now than to go and buy my remington 700 at the time when i made it, but i may change it to a boyds and paint it. Thank you all for such great info. I was also wonderinf what is a good distance to shoot at with the nagant 91/30 recently ive been trying 130 yards, is that alright or should i start lower or farther, i zero in at 100. so is a 2 inch group normal or good with a gun this old? will i ever have a 1/2 inch group or is that unrealistic? thanks again guys! keep on shootin!

 

[roggom]

Re: Help With Shooting with m91/30

.5 moa groups are not the norm , but 1 moa are achievable with the right load. For a stock MN shooting milsurp, I would be happy with 2 or 3 moa ( but then again I reload).

100y is pretty much the standard, as a basis for the moa (minute of angel, minute of arc) comes from. The holes in your target are the result of an arc of the bullet, if you were to continue the arc it would make a circle of 360 degrees. So they may be 1 inch apart, but is is the result of different arcs.

Now before someone gets in a tizzy and starts to throw numbers, it is not exactly "one" inch, but you can read up and learn the correct figure. A quick search brought me to this website http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNINTRO.html has some good references for a new shooter.

There is nothing wrong with practicing at 50Y and them moving up to 100 and them even 200 and beyond.

Bullets are measured in grains and size in inches. So the MN will shoot 7.62mm or approx .310 bullets. You may know 30 caliber or .308. Enfields shoot 303 cal or .311 etc. The thing about the MN is some of the bores are .312 and others .314 or more. The larger the bore, the less accurate it may be shooting smaller projectiles. (There is a heck of more info about this but dont want to make the post too long).

As for the ATI, yes they are kinda crappy, but effective. Many of them came warped and were a pain in the butt to inlet. I have one and it took me forever to get it just right.

Have fun shooting.

 

[38Revolver]

Re: Help With Shooting with m91/30

For those of you with sticky bolts that require you to drop the rifle from your shoulder to cycle...

I read bostons gun bible a few weeks ago and remembered the other day his rave reviews of Valvoline Durablend for lubricating bolt gun parts. It works the trick, I slathered the guts of my mosins bolt with the stuff and cycled it a few times cleaning up the excess. Most of the time I can now cycle the bolt and keep a sight picture through my scope...

For 5 bucks, it might be worth a try on your mosin.

You can also greatly reduce the effort required to cycle the bolt after you fire.

After you fire, the firing pin is reset and the cocking knob hits a detent in the bolt body that locks it. Then you pull the bolt back, ejecting the spent round.

If you study the detent in the bolt body you'll see that the detent tapers in width, and that the spiral ramps are two different shapes. The bolt body is different from the cocking knob.

If you blue print the two, with a sharpie marker on both ramps and then reassemble the bolt and cycle it a few times you'll see the ramps are not in contact, except for right at the start where the two profiles interlock. (While you have the bolt apart, go ahead and mark all the other surfaces that rub while you turn to see where they are in contact. The front side of my bolt body was machined ever so slightly out of square to the carrier.)

If you flatten out the ramp in both the bolt body and the cocking knob bringing more of each into contact, it narrows the flat land ahead of the locking detent in the bolt body. This greatly reduces the amount of pressure required to rotate the bolt and to lock back the firing pin.


The spiral shape was easier to machine than a flat ramp leading in to a spiral. But the varying width of the locking detent, and ramp means that the bolt has to be jammed forward and left rubbing on the reciever to gain the leverage to rotate and pull the firing pin back to its detent.

I have been using a ceramic hone with a round side and a flat side to do most of the honing as it will get to most places.

When you lift the bolt handle after firing a round, you are locking the firing pin back in the same motion. The gun isn't cocked until the bolt is back forward, and the bolt handle in firing position. At that point the sear lifts the firing pin clear of the detent and when you pull the trigger it slides forward with both ramps in contact.

Also spend some time polishing the flat land the spring rotates on the firing pin. If it is snagging on pits in the firing pin, you are trying to coil or uncoil the firing pin while rotating the bolt rather than simply compressing the spring. If you rotate the bolt slowly and listen closely you may feel a few pops and clicks as the spring bounces around the pits.

 

[BuLLzi]

Re: Help With Shooting with m91/30

Thanks again guys Im really learning a lot here! And i appreciate the link roggom I will continue to read there!