High BC or Transitional Stability?

[ReturnFire]

Gentleman,

To preface this question I am looking to shoot 3500 yards at sea level with a 416 or 375 maybe both. I plan to shoot solids in both calibers but I'm trying to narrow down projectile selection. I've seen two distinct nose cone designs with one boasting a significantly higher BC which effectively extends the range before going transonic. The other has a lower BC which causes it to transition much sooner but stays more stable after doing so. I'm not sure which route is better to pursue so this is where I'm looking for some direction from you guys that regularly shoot these distances.

 

[IntoTransonic]

Gentleman,

To preface this question I am looking to shoot 3500 yards at sea level with a 416 or 375 maybe both. I plan to shoot solids in both calibers but I'm trying to narrow down projectile selection. I've seen two distinct nose cone designs with one boasting a significantly higher BC which effectively extends the range before going transonic. The other has a lower BC which causes it to transition much sooner but stays more stable after doing so. I'm not sure which route is better to pursue so this is where I'm looking for some direction from you guys that regularly shoot these distances.

Always the more stable bullet. Shouldn’t even be a question in your mind. If it ain’t stable …. You ain’t hitting it.

 

[CNC-Dude]

I just listened to a podcast with Erik Cortina interviewing Frank Green of Bartlien Barrels, and Frank stated that not all barrels shot solids very well compared to lead core bullets. So I'd see if yours falls into that category first, and then test to see which one it likes if it does shoot them good....but stability is key!

 

[IntoTransonic]

I just listened to a podcast with Erik Cortina interviewing Frank Green of Bartlien Barrels, and Frank stated that not all barrels shot solids very well compared to lead core bullets. So I'd see if yours falls into that category first, and then test to see which one it likes if it does shoot them good....but stability is key!

Solid vs Core has more to do with twist rate. Faster twist … heavy stable solid bullet at distance = magic if you do all other things well.

All of my Bartlein barrels have done well with solids given the appropriate twist is used.
I.e. 416 - 550 grain projectile - 1:8 twist.

 

[Dogtown]

Solids tend to need faster twist rate because they are longer than similar mass jacketed bullets. But one of the nice things about solids is that you can spin them really fast and they won't come apart. But the trade off is that often a very fast twist can reduce velocity a tad, and make shooting jacketed bullets a no-go.

 

[badassgunworks]

So why would you settle for one or the other why not have both High BC and transitions well. There are fallacies in elr industrie that one bullet manufactor ceb transions better . And bullets like warner and badlands dont thats just not true. I dont shoot warner bullets so i cant 100% speak for them but i can tell you that the badlands bullet are not only stable threw transition but have the most impacts at beyond 2700 yards per capita then ceb do. Despite that 75% of the shooters in the market use ceb. And perhaps have the best shooters. Now if your shooting the better cartridges at better velocities with bullets like badlands or warner you may never get into transition at a match even at sea level. (i dont. ) Now a side note ceb are easier to make accurate then some of the other companies are . So that is a plus. . Forget the idea and babbling about bcsd. As there is no facts tied to one bullet manufactor over another sence it has very little to next to nothing to do with the bullet Manufactors. So use the bullet that shoots best in your platform with your loading experance. With the highest bc. And learn to shoot it well and you will be fine.

 

[NightStash]

So why would you settle for one or the other why not have both High BC and transitions well. There are fallacies in elr industrie that one bullet manufactor ceb transions better . And bullets like warner and badlands dont thats just not true. I dont shoot warner bullets so i cant 100% speak for them but i can tell you that the badlands bullet are not only stable threw transition but have the most impacts at beyond 2700 yards per capita then ceb do. Despite that 75% of the shooters in the market use ceb. And perhaps have the best shooters. Now if your shooting the better cartridges at better velocities with bullets like badlands or warner you may never get into transition at a match even at sea level. (i dont. ) Now a side note ceb are easier to make accurate then some of the other companies are . So that is a plus. . Forget the idea and babbling about bcsd. As there is no facts tied to one bullet manufactor over another sence it has very little to next to nothing to do with the bullet Manufactors. So use the bullet that shoots best in your platform with your loading experance. With the highest bc. And learn to shoot it well and you will be fine.

"Forget the idea and babbling about bcsd" Why would anyone want bullets with a small SD?

 

[badassgunworks]

"Forget the idea and babbling about bcsd" Why would anyone want bullets with a small SD?

I believe Applied Ballistics has proven that all bullets are capable of producing low bcsd. The big question is, is the barrel and Rifle platform in the position or capable of it. Bcsd has nothing to do with the bullet manufacturer

 

[NightStash]

I believe Applied Ballistics has proven that all bullets are capable of producing low bcsd. The big question is, is the barrel and Rifle platform in the position or capable of it. Bcsd has nothing to do with the bullet manufacturer

Just because it happens once isn't a good indicator. Certain bullets have proven many times over to be very consistent. Consistency wins matches not the highest BC lol.

 

[badassgunworks]

Just because it happens once isn't a good indicator. Certain bullets have proven many times over to be very consistent. Consistency wins matches not the highest BC lol.

Has much more to do with the condition of the barrel not the brand a good Barrel is a good Barrel a shitty Barrel is a shitty Barrel and a worn-out barrel is a worn-out barrel. They're just simply has not been enough testing for a definitive answer on all of the variables that cause bcsd issues. Just simply state that it is about the bullet or about X brand of barrel is just simply not true. There has been more than enough documentation to prove that it is not about the brand of bullet we have seen good and bad bcsd from all manufacturers

 

[NightStash]

Has much more to do with the condition of the barrel not the brand a good Barrel is a good Barrel a shitty Barrel is a shitty Barrel and a worn-out barrel is a worn-out barrel. They're just simply has not been enough testing for a definitive answer on all of the variables that cause bcsd issues. Just simply state that it is about the bullet or about X brand of barrel is just simply not true. There has been more than enough documentation to prove that it is not about the brand of bullet we have seen good and bad bcsd from all manufacturers

There is a large enough sample size now that you can't just blame bad results on barrels. The idea you keep pushing of shooting the highest BC as fast as possible has shown it doesn't work.

 

[cameljockey230]

I think you can use acoustic sensors on your chronograph and check the bullets bc at extended distances to see what is happening.
I think on this website a shooter who goes by David Tubb looked at bullets by a shooter who goes by TimnTx several years ago and discovered he wasn't running enough twist?
I could have that all wrong?

 

[HellWolf]

Gentleman,

To preface this question I am looking to shoot 3500 yards at sea level with a 416 or 375 maybe both. I plan to shoot solids in both calibers but I'm trying to narrow down projectile selection. I've seen two distinct nose cone designs with one boasting a significantly higher BC which effectively extends the range before going transonic. The other has a lower BC which causes it to transition much sooner but stays more stable after doing so. I'm not sure which route is better to pursue so this is where I'm looking for some direction from you guys that regularly shoot these distances.

If you want to try the ones boasting huge BC, I've got 100s I can't even give away at matches. I haven't shot many of the Warners to test yet , but Dan is a great guy and I'm currently running his 416 Barrett brass which is flawless.
As far as Cutting Edge goes , the Lazers have proven themselves time and time again . I ran 400+ Bad landings through the first 375 Hellfire barrel I used in 2019 and 2020 with extremely sub par results , inconsistent groups, unexplainable fliers and the comments i kept getting from the company blamed the bullets performance on everything but the bullet. 2 days before Clarks Knob 2020 I switched to Cutting Edge just to try them . After calling Dan with concerns I had about an extremely deep throat on the rifle and having to jump the Lazers almost .090" he told me not to be concerned "they're not picky, just run them " I loaded 15 rounds to check velocities, settled on a load and left for the match. On Friday before the match started I ran the Lazers across the AB mobile lab with a .36% BC/SD . After the first day I was leading the match with a total of 15 rounds of Lazers used for load development on a chamber that was cut for badlands . After day 2 I ended up in 5th place and had multiple impacts on every plate there out to past 2 miles even after switching a scope out mid match to be able to run a Charlie.
There's absolutely no question in my mind now what the best ELR bullets in the world are , they took me to the throne at King of 2 Miles 2022 and let me Conquer the Castle in 2023 along with 3 match wins at Spearpoint and overall Spearpoint series championship in 2022 and 3rd at Conquer the Castle 2022 . Multiple match impacts past 3500 yards and even more impacts past 4000 yards in practice. Cutting Edge is second to none .

 

[badassgunworks]

There is a large enough sample size now that you can't just blame bad results on barrels. The idea you keep pushing of shooting the highest BC as fast as possible has shown it doesn't work.

I never said shooting the highest BC with shitty loads or pushing the limits Beyond proper operation nodes was a good idea. Anyone who believes that if you can't have low SDS ,accurac,consistency at higher velocity in higher BC bullets is just narrow minded i support optomized every thing. Not sacrificing anything.

 

[badassgunworks]

If you want to try the ones boasting huge BC, I've got 100s I can't even give away at matches. I haven't shot many of the Warners to test yet , but Dan is a great guy and I'm currently running his 416 Barrett brass which is flawless.
As far as Cutting Edge goes , the Lazers have proven themselves time and time again . I ran 400+ Bad landings through the first 375 Hellfire barrel I used in 2019 and 2020 with extremely sub par results , inconsistent groups, unexplainable fliers and the comments i kept getting from the company blamed the bullets performance on everything but the bullet. 2 days before Clarks Knob 2020 I switched to Cutting Edge just to try them . After calling Dan with concerns I had about an extremely deep throat on the rifle and having to jump the Lazers almost .090" he told me not to be concerned "they're not picky, just run them " I loaded 15 rounds to check velocities, settled on a load and left for the match. On Friday before the match started I ran the Lazers across the AB mobile lab with a .36% BC/SD . After the first day I was leading the match with a total of 15 rounds of Lazers used for load development on a chamber that was cut for badlands . After day 2 I ended up in 5th place and had multiple impacts on every plate there out to past 2 miles even after switching a scope out mid match to be able to run a Charlie.
There's absolutely no question in my mind now what the best ELR bullets in the world are , they took me to the throne at King of 2 Miles 2022 and let me Conquer the Castle in 2023 along with 3 match wins at Spearpoint and overall Spearpoint series championship in 2022 and 3rd at Conquer the Castle 2022 . Multiple match impacts past 3500 yards and even more impacts past 4000 yards in practice. Cutting Edge is second to none .

You are a great competitor and i never stated cutting edge bullets were bad. But i am not experancing the issues you had with badlands.

 

[badassgunworks]

There is a large enough sample size now that you can't just blame bad results on barrels. The idea you keep pushing of shooting the highest BC as fast as possible has shown it doesn't work.

I can pretty much guarantee you that Applied Ballistics will tell you that the most contributing factor to bcsd issues is not the bullet brand when stabilized properly but the condition of the barrel the crown and muzzle devices. That causes the most issues. It is the only explanation why we have seen good and bad numbers from all manufacturers bullets. I am pretty sure that some of those variances going from good to bad are in the same rifle with the same bullets weeks and or months apart

 

[badassgunworks]

You know what I would like to see. A full blown high-end lab that has only one thing in mind. Truth finding out answers to questions without agendas focusing on advancing the industry and improving end results. Perhaps sometime in the future someone might step up to the plate

 

[NightStash]

I can pretty much guarantee you that Applied Ballistics will tell you that the most contributing factor to bcsd issues is not the bullet brand when stabilized properly but the condition of the barrel the crown and muzzle devices. That causes the most issues. It is the only explanation why we have seen good and bad numbers from all manufacturers bullets. I am pretty sure that some of those variances going from good to bad are in the same rifle with the same bullets weeks and or months apart

Again with the barrel excuses. Yes all manufactures have had good and bad results but with the large sample sizes now trends have definitely emerged. Inconsistent numbers a majority of the time from certain manufacturers is telling.

 

[badassgunworks]

Again with the barrel excuses. Yes all manufactures have had good and bad results but with the large sample sizes now trends have definitely emerged. Inconsistent numbers a majority of the time from certain manufacturers is telling.

Yeah we know all about sample sizes. With incomplete information and wrong test parameters without the intention of determining facts

 

[NightStash]

Yeah we know all about sample sizes. With incomplete information and wrong test parameters without the intention of determining facts

So now the data gathered from a radar is wrong

 

[HellWolf]

So now the data gathered from a radar is wrong

The data from the radar is working good enough that my 550 Lazer PDM is being used by at least 3 other shooters and has won more matches than any bullet in ELR in the last 2 years, lol , so it has to be inconclusive and biased, lol

 

[badassgunworks]

So now the data gathered from a radar is wrong

Did not say that the data gathered from radar is wrong. You know exactly what I'm talking about and if you don't then you're not as bright as you should be.. data produced does not explain why. Data produced by radar. does not lie only the interpretation of it