And then you post 8 different pictures of your groups? Dude nobody questions your contributions with load data and findings on this site (and we all appreciate it), but you gotta admit the irony here is pretty damn funny
-
Having trouble using the site?
Contact support
High End Die Face Off: Forester vs. Redding vs. Whidden Dies
- Thread starter arm017
- Start date
And then you post 8 different pictures of your groups? Dude nobody questions your contributions with load data and findings on this site (and we all appreciate it), but you gotta admit the irony here is pretty damn funny
Exactly the same procedure I use. I don't have a FL die of any make. Even for my semi auto .223 rifle.
Don't have to mess with case trimming for a long time with a collet die. No neck stretching dragging it in and out of the die.
If a tighter neck is required or wanted, just a light crimp with a Lee crimp die does the trick.
I decap with a dedicated decapping die and remove the center post from the FL sizing die. Expander mandrel is a Sinclair Gen II die with their carbide expander mandrel which is 0.002 under bullet diameter.
I have the 21st Century expander mandrel that came with their neck turn lathe. I need to look into getting some alternate diameters.
Depending on the brass neck thickness you could end up sizing it down .008" each time (or more) and then having to open it back up with an expander ball or mandrel. Honing the neck out just lessens the amount of excessive working you do to the brass.
Do you get .002 with the expander ball or with it removed?
Custom honed FL sizing dies are my favorite. I would prefer to get forster, but since they don't do the custom honing service these days I use whidden and replace the decapping stems with forsters decapper w/ high ball expander. I have no use what so ever for redding, RCBS, Lee, etc.
I too have shot the smallest groups of my life with this type of setup. I tried every other method; bushings, collets, etc etc etc. Custom FL dies are the simplest and work the very best.
Just shot this group a couple days ago with my 7 Norma Mag Improved.
[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/i.imgur.com\/25YFZMLh.jpg"}[/IMG2]
I too have shot the smallest groups of my life with this type of setup. I tried every other method; bushings, collets, etc etc etc. Custom FL dies are the simplest and work the very best.
Just shot this group a couple days ago with my 7 Norma Mag Improved.
[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/i.imgur.com\/25YFZMLh.jpg"}[/IMG2]
If you were to remove the expander ball you'd find that the sized neck is probably 0.006-0.008 neck tension. The idea of honing the neck is to minimize brass working. You want to have them hone the neck to around 0.0035 - 0.004 smaller than the neck OD of a loaded round. That will give the expander ball (or expander mandrel) around 0.001 of expansion to do.
They are still doing custom neck honing, only $12. Had one die done earlier this year and have another die currently with them that should be back in a week or two. They don't do full custom dies but they'll do stuff like neck honing or shortening one of their dies on a lathe.
Last edited:
That doesn't help when working with wildcat's that don't share dimensions with factory cases.
True custom dies are the way to go, and if forster did it again where I could send fired cases to them to crank out custom FL sizers and micrometer sets... I'd have no reason to go elsewhere. ... but as it stands, thats why whidden get my business.
I've only used the RCBS Competition dies, the older Bonanza Benchrest dies and Redding. I could see no improvement when using the RCBS seater but I did like the window. The Bonanza seater works great and I'm really happy with Redding. I use both Redding FL sizers and their bushing dies. I thought my next set of dies might be Whidden but with all of the negative comments I've been seeing I have backed off. Oh yeah, on a couple of my tight neck rifles I use Wilson dies and an arbor press.
This thread has been alive nearly a month, and we have a sample size thus far of 63 votes. As the OP to the thread, I have gotten to watch the votes tally over the last month, and I found it interesting how the balance has shifted over the past month from the first week or so when public opinion was approximately 70/20/10 (Redding/Forster/Whidden), to now much more balanced between Redding/ Forster - 47/40/12 as of this post. Some food for thought.
... and in that month, about 2/3 of your voters probably haven't fired as many rounds as you have votes.
Sir, I read alot of your posts here on the hide and can see that you've been getting excellent results with your reloading process (and I'm sure you do your share behind the rifle as well), so I'm dragging you back into this thread hoping to pick your brain.
I will soon be reloading 223 and thought I would try a little bit of a different procedure than what I currently do for 308. For 308 I have been using the lee collet die, and using a redding body die to bump the shoulders ~.002" every second or third firing.
My plan for 223 is to hopefully transition to a single-die resizing process that will be the same every time (i.e. no body die every second or third firing). I was planning on going with a Forster bushing bump die to bump the shoulders approx. .002 and bring the neck down to provide .002 tension. I would then be using a Forster micrometer seating die. After reading this thread I am wondering if I would be better off just going with the Forster FLS die and having it honed to result in the .002 neck tension.
My question for you is regarding the Forster FLS die. Are you using this with the provided expander ball unit, or are you using another mandrel inside the die? Or do you think if the case wall thicknesses were consistent enough that one could get away with using the FLS die without an expander/mandrel unit? Keep in mind that this would be with a honed die so as to work the neck as little as possible to result in ~.002 neck tension. Also I'd like to mention that I too would like to avoid neck turning.
Using the Forster FL sizing die with expander in gives you some of the least runout in any sizing die Ive tested. You will have to see what kind of neck tension that gives you or send them measurements to hone the die right from the get go. Or you could use the Forster FL sizing die with the button removed to squeeze down the neck and bump the shoulder (or not bump the shoulder depending how you set it up) then run the cases through an expander mandrel for whatever neck tension you want....
Both of these methods will provide excellent results.
I run Redding neck bushing dies for my precision rifle brass ass well. I do not neck size my 223 AR brass, 7.62 AR brass or 6.5cm semi brass..
Both of these methods will provide excellent results.
I run Redding neck bushing dies for my precision rifle brass ass well. I do not neck size my 223 AR brass, 7.62 AR brass or 6.5cm semi brass..
Okay so correct me if I am wrong, but if I were to use a Forster FLS die with the expander ball, the advantage to having the neck of the die honed to my spec is to reduce working of the brass? Meaning the honed die body would reduce my neck diameter just enough so that when the expander ball is pulled back through it will do minimal up-sizing of the neck diameter to result in the .002" that Forster advertises with their "EZ-out" expander ball?
Yes, exactly. My new 6xc forster die is unhoned and sizes the neck down .010" smaller than a loaded round without the expander ball. Honing it out .007 larger would allow me to size the neck down only .003 and then, when the expander ball comes back up through, open it up to .002.
However if I were to use a different brand of brass that has a different thickness in the material it could either be more or less. The fear is that you hone it for thick brass and then switch to thin brass and it doesnt size the thin stuff enough because youve hollowed it out. So if you are going to hone have some idea of what you are going to be running and understand where your combination lines up with the rest of the possibilities should you decide to change at some point.
However if I were to use a different brand of brass that has a different thickness in the material it could either be more or less. The fear is that you hone it for thick brass and then switch to thin brass and it doesnt size the thin stuff enough because youve hollowed it out. So if you are going to hone have some idea of what you are going to be running and understand where your combination lines up with the rest of the possibilities should you decide to change at some point.
Right, that makes perfect sense. Has anyone used a honed FLS die without any type of expander ball or mandrel? It seems like it would have similar results to using a bushing neck sizer in that you would control the OD of the neck, and the ID would be dependent on wall thickness. If your wall thickness was consistent enough (I don't want to turn necks, so assume non-turned necks) would this yield good results? Or would it just be preferred to run it with the expander ball to control the ID?
Some people do that, just a bushing with no expander. But as you said it is dependant on thickness variations. If using lapua brass its pretty consistent (.0005-.001" usually) so that would be a viable option, using rem brass I have variations of .002" from one side to the other in most pieces so just squeezing down from the outside only would leave the center that interfaces with the bullet nonconcentric.
With that said when I use to neck size I had decent results not using an expander. Now I just go with traditional (unhoned expanderball off the shelf dies) fl sizer seater pairs. Both ways can result in accurate ammo. Traditional full length sizing gives me the good results without any headaches.
With that said when I use to neck size I had decent results not using an expander. Now I just go with traditional (unhoned expanderball off the shelf dies) fl sizer seater pairs. Both ways can result in accurate ammo. Traditional full length sizing gives me the good results without any headaches.
Threads like these make my head spin. Just when I think I know what I'm doing (FL size with Redding s bushing die every time, and keep the expander ball-thingy on always), I see stuff about collet dies and expander mandrels, which I have no idea what they are!
I've never measured run-out, dont turn necks, I rarely ever trim and don't often remember to bump the shoulders. I anneal now every other firing with an Annealeez (Lapua brass).
What am I missing? Sounds like I could be doing it better. Now that match season is over, I want to completely overhaul my reloading process to really work on precision.
I may buy an AMP and am looking at Arbor presses for seating, and a 21st Century run-out doo-dad. I now need help figuring out what the hell expander mandrels and collet dies are. Yikes!
I've never measured run-out, dont turn necks, I rarely ever trim and don't often remember to bump the shoulders. I anneal now every other firing with an Annealeez (Lapua brass).
What am I missing? Sounds like I could be doing it better. Now that match season is over, I want to completely overhaul my reloading process to really work on precision.
I may buy an AMP and am looking at Arbor presses for seating, and a 21st Century run-out doo-dad. I now need help figuring out what the hell expander mandrels and collet dies are. Yikes!
I tend to favor Forster FL sizers and micrometer seaters for my precision stuff (regular Forster benchrest seaters for my hunting stuff), and I'm guessing that I'm about to get roasted, here, but Lee factory crimp dies, since the seaters that I use are all non-crimping. I set the Lee dies for a pretty light kiss right on the rim (yeah, I know how that sounds); I *have* been known to fuck up a projectile or two by over crimping, but I'm always able to get them dialed in pretty quickly.
Regarding runout, I've thought about purchasing the 21st Century setup and checking my loaded rounds, but then I realized that even if I found a lot of runout, I wouldn't know what to do about it... I'm already using a decent press (Forster CoAx), good quality dies, and respectable brass prep hardware (Wilson case trimmer, and 21st Century lathe for any necks that need to be turned).
Regarding runout, I've thought about purchasing the 21st Century setup and checking my loaded rounds, but then I realized that even if I found a lot of runout, I wouldn't know what to do about it... I'm already using a decent press (Forster CoAx), good quality dies, and respectable brass prep hardware (Wilson case trimmer, and 21st Century lathe for any necks that need to be turned).
Traditional full length and bushing dies take the brass and squeeze it down more than optimal as the brass is pushed into the die, upon extraction the expander ball which previously went through the fired mouth without touching is dragged back through the oversized neck thus opening it back up to the proper internal dimension.
[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","height":"603","width":"603","src":"https:\/\/cdn.shopify.com\/s\/files\/1\/1542\/4181\/products\/forster-full-length-sizing-die-cutaway_1200x.jpg?v=1485303256"}[/IMG2]
Now, if you remove the expander you can squueze the brass down but you then need a way to open the mouth back up to the proper dimension, in comes the mandrel die. Instead of pulling the expander ball up through the neck you instead slide the brass onto a sizing mandrel which does the opening, see the center mandrel on the left pic and how the brass is forced over it on the right expanding it open.
[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/accurateshooter.net\/Blog\/kmwindow04.jpg"}[/IMG2]
A collet is much the same as the mandrel. A typical mandrel die you would have to size it down with a gutted full length or neck sizing die before using the mandrel, the collet actually has a central mandrel but where it differs from a typical mandrel is that it actually has a collet around the outside that when the brass inserted into it squeeze down and thus size the brass down to the proper amount without making it smaller first and then opening it back up. The red arrows show the outside collet where they squeeze the brass neck down around the center mandrel.
[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/www.milsurps.com\/images\/imported\/2010\/10\/IMGP7093-1.jpg"}[/IMG2]
If you have a redding type s already the easiest way is to keep using the bushing part but remove the expander and get a mandrel die to get them back open.
Last edited:
Thank you for the detailed information! That clears up a lot. So the expander mandrel way just doesn't work the brass as much, is that the benefit? I do have bushing dies.
The mandrel could still work the brass just as much potentially. Typically people get them in the appropriate sizes though to mitigate the additional working of the brass. The main benefit of the mandrel is that it is a lot more rigid than the expander ball which can lead to better run out as well as more more consistency in the sizing. Some times you can feel an expander ball kiss some brass a bit more than others, the mandrel should do the best job of eliminating those discrepancies.
Measure the outside of the loaded case neck and subtract .002 from it for the bushing size. From what Ive read your .288 bushing may be a bit over working lapua but it is also exactly what you want on osme others so really youll have to verify this yourself if you want minimum working of the brass.
Then get a mandrel that is .001 less than bullet diameter. Because you will have already sized the brass down the mandrel will be opening it back up. That means your .001 under sized mandrel will achieve .002 undersized brass because the brass will try and spring back to the smaller diameter.
Thats really all there is to get the base line generic mandrel set up so many are transitioning to. Then you can play with different mandrels and bushings etc looking to really fine tune your loads and get the optimal set up.
I use a 0.289 bushing for my 6.5mm Creedmoor (Hornady), and a 0.267 bushing for my 6mm Dasher (Lapua).
This will give me something to read up on and do this winter. Thanks again.
This will give me something to read up on and do this winter. Thanks again.
Yes... this is my preferred method of sizing. There’s little need to pull the expander back through and I’ve never had any runout issues unless the brass necks were really inconsistent.
I'm surprised nobody mentioned Warner Tool Company dies
I just re barreled 6.5 Creedmoor with another Bartlein heavy varmint barrel and I ordered a custom Warner sizing die to match my chamber
Had to get the Redding Big Boss II press since the Warner die will not fit in my Forster Co-Ax
I just re barreled 6.5 Creedmoor with another Bartlein heavy varmint barrel and I ordered a custom Warner sizing die to match my chamber
Had to get the Redding Big Boss II press since the Warner die will not fit in my Forster Co-Ax
I bought a Prazi press, half the reason was to use my thick Warner dies. Yeah, I'm perfectly happy with both. None better.
Or spending the ridiculous amount of $ I did. But as I look back at the times I didn't buy once/cry once...
I’ve been using Redding bushing dies in my benchrest cartridges for about 7 years now and couldn’t be happier. I full length size and with the Redding’s and seat with Wilson dies. My runout is less than .001, and I can tell the difference. With that said, the dies I use just happen to fit brass from my chambers, I’m using a Boyer #3 reamer. I like the concept of the Whidden size die where it has the shoulder and neck together in the bushing, but I’ve only owned one of those and haven’t used it much.
Wayne
So, if you're annealing every firing, does slightly overworking the brass when you size the case matter that much?
I’m sure it has an effect but I can’t say how much. In my limited experience just so long as you do it the same way every time it doesn’t make any practical difference, just so long as you are consistent in the regimen. I use normal factory sizers and they size the necks down .01 from a fired saami specd neck and open back up with the expander ball. So lots of working of the brass but I’m still getting plenty of firings on brass.
Everyone seems to talk about overworking their brass. And it is important, and can probably save some dollars in the long run, especially with annealing, but in the same token, the primer pockets are usually the limiting variable in my brass life. Are you guys running into case separation issues often?
I would suspect that most of us are running a bare FLS die and a separate mandrel for the goal of supreme accuracy and concentricity; at least that was my thought on it.
I would suspect that most of us are running a bare FLS die and a separate mandrel for the goal of supreme accuracy and concentricity; at least that was my thought on it.
Hornady bushing dies made in their custom shop with a Forster Ultra Micometer seater.
I would like to try to use Redding body dies with Lee collet. I am not sure if this is what you are using...
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0007675446/6half-creedmoor-body-die
https://leeprecision.com/collet-neck-sizing-die-only-complete.html
I plan to order parts from midsouth but could not find Lee Collet Neck sizing die there. Where did you find them?
I will order Forster Ultra Micrometer Seater Die along as above.
Thanks!!!!
Who else would like to see padom and milo actually at the bench next to one another at distance?
Not a Redding fan. I have had problems with bending the sizing rod when knocking out the primers.I can say that on the whole my 6.5Creedmoor Forster Micrometer Bench Rest seater consistently seats a Hornady 130gr ELDM with far less runout (1-2/1000 vs 5-6/1000) than my 6.5x55 Redding Competition Seater seats a 142gr Sierra Match King on the same Forster Coax press. I have other Redding sizing dies (non-competition) where the decapping pin scribes a circle if you rotate it in your hand. The pin was not bent so the decapping rod appears to have been bent from the factory. And I always replace the Redding locking rings with the cross screw variety (Hornady usually) to save my die's threads.
In general, I've been happy with Hornady dies for day to day reloading and, so far, Forster (and some Lee
I checked on Warner and whew boy, those things are 600-750 bones? Whats the delineator?
I've had good luck with redding and Forster dies. I won't buy another set of whidden dies, originally had to send in the sizing die because it left marks on the shoulder. Recently had issues with the seating die, the seating stem galled up causing erratic seating depths.
Similar threads
