Historical question, why doesn't a bolt gun that takes 30-06 en bloc clips exist?

[yocan]

I have wondered this for a while. WW2 era why didn't the snipers run bolt guns with en bloc clips? Obviously you'd run different ammo. Do it right and the sniper rounds are longer, so their higher pressure rounds don't fit to break the piston rod, but in a pinch they can use garand food.

I feel I'm missing something.
I don't feel this has the same drawbacks as the 249 taking magazines which seriously lowers the quality of the gun.

 

[FatBoy]

Rounds on a stripper clip and a clip slotted recover is just as fast , or almost just as a fast, to load and you can have a smaller, lighter receiver.

 

[pmclaine]

^ mic drop.

 

[Mr. Z]

^ mic drop.

Que?

 

[pmclaine]

Mike drop

 

[hlee]

The simplest answer is the easiest. The obvious answer it “because the 1903 Springfield was available, and developing a bolt action to use garand enbloc clips would have been too expensive and too long to develop.”

An even more obvious answer is “because no one thought it a sufficiently good idea to merit consideration.”

 

[Random Guy]

I feel I'm missing something.

Not to be flippant, but the enbloc was utilized b/c the M1 is a semi-auto action and operates with enough force to pull and load the next round from the enbloc clip. It was also a way to stuff 8 rds into the rifle without a protruding magazine. Bolt actions are simple & don't need the enbloc system.


The downside is that it is hard to load enblocs individually in the field, one cartridge at a time, whereas it is quite easy to load 5-rd stripper clips. Of course with a sniper scope over the bolt, it's impossible to load stripper clips straight into the action of a typical sniper rifle. With the enbloc system, the M1C and M1D sniper rifles had to use off-set scopes (to the left), as seen here from a picture in Korea, circa July 1952.

 

[pmclaine]

Not be flippant, but the enbloc was utilized b/c the M1 is a semi-auto action and operates with enough force to pull and load the next round from the enbloc clip. It was also a way to stuff 8 rds into the rifle without a protruding magazine. Bolt actions are simply & don't need the enbloc system.


The downside is that it is hard to load enblocs individually in the field, one cartridge at a time, whereas it is quite easy to load 5-rd stripper clips. Of course with a sniper scope over the bolt, it's impossible to load stripper clips straight into the action of a typical sniper rifle. With the enbloc system, the M1C and M1D sniper rifles had to use off-set scopes (to the left), as seen here from a picture in Korea, circa July 1952.

I’m guessing that dude never went to a
Meeting to discuss diversity.

His only diversity concern was “ball” or “AP”

 

[cplnorton]

The biggest reason is you had to know the philosophy of the military at this time. They wanted a sniper version of the "service rifle." So whatever the service rifle was at that time, that is what they wanted to make as the sniper rifle.

So by the time the M1 became the service rifle Army Ordnance had already decided to make a M1 Sniper. They just didn't have a design developed yet in 1942, so that is the only reason they went with the 03A4. Because Remington could do the 03a4 fast and they could get them to the field really quick without testing and development the M1 would take.

But even when they selected the 03a4 it was just a placeholder till they could get the M1 Sniper design and manufactured in enough numbers.

The reason they did this was because of 2 logical reasons, training and the logistics of spare parts. By having the service rifle as the sniper, the men were already trained on the basics of the rifle in boot camp. Also by having the service rifle as a sniper they didn't have to have a different set of spare parts in the field to keep them serviceable.

So why didn't they want a enbloc bolt gun as a sniper? Because they didn't want a bolt gun sniper at this time.

The M1903 was seen as outdated by everyone before Pearl Harbor. Even the Marines had decided to switch over to the M1 in Feb 1941 and had around 27,000 M1's before Pearl Harbor was attacked.

The Marines chose the M1903 Unertl sniper because they had the M1903 team rifles in stock and knew they could quickly mount the Unertl scopes and make a quick sniper rifle. They knew the Team rifles were accurate and they had the spare parts to keep them serviceable.

But again, with the Marines, the M1903 Unertl was a placeholder till the new sniper rifle could be developed.

By the time the Army developed the M1C and the Marines tested it in 1945, they already knew they would adopt it if the war wasn't already winding down . But in 1945 the Marines said if a war would flare up again, the M1C would be the rifle they would choose.

In 1950 (just as they said in 1945) when the war flared up in Korea they did just that. They chose the M1C, because it was the Service rifle Sniper they wanted for the same reasons the Army wanted them.


Sniping was seen very different in this era than we are used to now. Really until Vietnam, all I see stated is they ideally wanted the service rifle to be the sniper rifle platform.

 

[cplnorton]

The op brings up a good point though.

Early in the war I see reports of them receiving the bandoliers of ammo on stripper clips for the M1903.

As the war progressed, I see mentions that the snipers only got their ammo on m1 enblocs and they had to break them down to load the M1903's with individual rounds. Now granted with a scope, the stripper clips no longer worked anyways to load, so it was pointless to receive ammo in clips. But still the snipers did not receive any special bandoliers of ammo just because they were a sniper.

So I mean the OP is bringing up a logistical question that I often see addressed in the field reports of the day.

 

[pmclaine]

The op brings up a good point though.

Early in the war I see reports of them receiving the bandoliers of ammo on stripper clips for the M1903.

As the war progressed, I see mentions that the snipers only got their ammo on m1 enblocs and they had to break them down to load the M1903's with individual rounds. Now granted with a scope, the stripper clips no longer worked anyways to load, so it was pointless to receive ammo in clips. But still the snipers did not receive any special bandoliers of ammo just because they were a sniper.

So I mean the OP is bringing up a logistical question that I often see addressed in the field reports of the day.

And in Korea when Fox 2/5 was defending Tok Tong pass they dropped the Marines using M1s bandoleers of ammo on stripper clips.

It’s all in good fun.

 

[Flint62a1]

Que?

View attachment 8198836

I cant tell is that Marvis Frazier getting knocked out? If it is he landed right in front of me. We thought Tyson killed him.

 

[Longshot231]

I have wondered this for a while. WW2 era why didn't the snipers run bolt guns with en bloc clips? Obviously you'd run different ammo. Do it right and the sniper rounds are longer, so their higher pressure rounds don't fit to break the piston rod, but in a pinch they can use garand food.

I feel I'm missing something.
I don't feel this has the same drawbacks as the 249 taking magazines which seriously lowers the quality of the gun.

By the time someone brought up the idea of using en-bloc clips for sniper rifles someone else had a better idea. It was called a box magazine that loaded from the bottom.

Sorry but I couldn't resist.

 

[pmclaine]

By the time someone brought up the idea of using en-bloc clips for sniper rifles someone else had a better idea. It was called a box magazine that loaded from the bottom.

Sorry but I couldn't resist.

Garand wanted his rifle to be fed by a box magazine.

The Army said “Make something to burn through the millions of surplus 06 and if you give private a magazine they will lose it. Make it an internal magazine”

Blame MacArthur

 

[shoobe01]

Garand wanted his rifle to be fed by a box magazine.

The Army said “Make something to burn through the millions of surplus 06 and if you give private a magazine they will lose it. Make it an internal magazine”

Blame MacArthur

Same tale as the magazine cutoffs on bolt guns that persisted into WW2. Generals didn't want soldiers "wasting ammo." Lots of decisions are by people whose experience is the war before last, and who have nothing but contempt for the end users.