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Hornady 75gr BTHP / Too slow?

krw

krw

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 28, 2004
1,431
393
Arkansas
#1
I have had a couple posts here lately on my new trk rifle. Rebarreled LTR, Rock 1/8x21 1/4" L. Had throated xtra long, 2.405" COAL, seated .010" off lands. Using Lapua .223 brass, CCI BR-4 primers, Hornady 75gr BTHP and currently loading 24.7gr RL-15. This load is .6gr above max in Hornady manual.
My 308 load using Lapua brass and Sierra 175gr BTHP match is nearly 2 gr above max in the Sierra manual. (44.3gr Varget)
I'm not showing any pressure signs whatever on the 223 load. I would like to be shooting at 2800FPS Then this load would have basically the same trajectory as my 308. I plan on increasing my load .2gr to find out where the top is on pressure. I would like to use Varget cause I got so much but my research shows I can't never get to 2800 with it. Any thoughts, opinions, productive comments, especially prior experience with 223 and the 75gr Hornady. Topped it off with the NF 2.5x10x32, It might be a little slow but it is Hell on the farm vermin. krw
 
#2
Re: Hornady 75gr BTHP / Too slow?

According to Hodgdon 25gr of Varget is max, but you can probably get more in there since you are loading longer. I'm running 25.0 with a 75gr BTHP at 4.40 in my 20" AR (single feed of course) and getting right at 2,800. I had tried 25.5, but accuracy didn't improve, so I left my load at 25gr. I haven't tried A-Maxs yet, but I'd think you should be able to get 2,800 with them.
 
#4
Re: Hornady 75gr BTHP / Too slow?

To the OP:

I suspect you will not heed this warning, but I still feel compelled to issue it.

Don't do it. It will never work. You are looking for trouble.

The 75gr HPBT has a claimed BC of .395 and I actually think it's probably at least 30 points less because Hornady likes to claim wildly optimistic values.

The 175gr SMK had a BC of .496 between 2800 and 1800, in other words, pretty much the entire flight. The difference in BC is at least 100 points, and more like 130 points. That is a HUGE difference.

Then you tell us that you are running the 175 above maximum load and your goal is to make the much lower BC bullet fly the same as the 175 going above max?

I think that's impossible and quite insanely dangerous to even try.

If your goal is to have the same trajectory for the .223 and the .308, you should either greatly reduce the load in the .308 and/or change to a lower BC bullet or use a different bullet in the .223.

In .224 caliber, you may want to look at the 80gr JLK, SMK, A-Max and some of the Berger offerings, nothing less than an 80gr will give you the BC that you do desperately need. I currently use the 80gr JLK and it's a fine bullet. Your barrel is very short however, so you may still have difficulties matching the 175gr trajectory, even with these fine 80gr bullet.
 
#6
Re: Hornady 75gr BTHP / Too slow?

Four comments - One, you are shooting a 22 bolt gun. Consult Sierra's manual and you'll see two sets of data - rat gun and bolt gun. Hornady's data you are using is on the low middle of the two.

Two, RL15 gives me pressure signs sooner when trying to juice up the load than V N140 does.

Three - lot to lot variance of RL15 can be quite a bit. Work up like you are, test with the ammo hot as well (put on top of a warm motor with the hood down then chrono) by putting an electronic thermometer in your ammo box from wal mart.

Four - if you switch over to an 80 gr SMK you will still be able to mag feed it in your bolt gun and it will allow you to match your 308 ballistics easier than sticking with a mag length bullet (75 HBTHP or 77 SMK). No sense shooting the 75 mag length bullet since you have the longer mag box in your bolt gun.

<span style="text-decoration: line-through">Point four though requires a re-barrel to a faster twist, and at the same time you can put a reasonable chamber in the rifle.</span>
 
#7
Re: Hornady 75gr BTHP / Too slow?

Just FYI, I shoot 80gr JLKs in my Rat gun but with a 26 inch barrel and I get 2850FPS. They are moly coated.

But even at that velocity, the 75gr HPBT will not match the 175SMK.

Also, you do not need a faster twist than your 1:8 to shoot the 80gr bullets. 1:8 works very well with thes long bullets.
 
#8
Re: Hornady 75gr BTHP / Too slow?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sig685</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Also, you do not need a faster twist than your 1:8 to shoot the 80gr bullets. 1:8 works very well with thes long bullets. </div></div>

OOPS my bad - re-read it- thought he was running a stock LTR. Yep, run something besides the mag length bullets and you'll come closer to accomplishing your goal. Also keep in mind the 80 SMK has a short bearing surface than the 75 an 77, so don't be surprised when the heavier 80 grain bullet takes more powder to reach the same velocity as the lighter 75 or 77.
 
#9
Re: Hornady 75gr BTHP / Too slow?

OP just roll what the most accurate load you can and what you have on hand,No need in matching a 308 with a 223 it would be nice ,But it is what it is a 223,Just roll up what works and kill them varmits with some 75BTHP out to 550 yards its workable in the wind,I kill shit weekly with mine its not a bench/match gun its a field gun..

thats what you want right ?
 
#10
Re: Hornady 75gr BTHP / Too slow?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sig685</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just FYI, I shoot 80gr JLKs in my Rat gun but with a 26 inch barrel and I get 2850FPS. They are moly coated.

But even at that velocity, the 75gr HPBT will not match the 175SMK.

Also, you do not need a faster twist than your 1:8 to shoot the 80gr bullets. 1:8 works very well with thes long bullets. </div></div>

I roll 80vld's at 3000 in my 26" gun no molly,But I didnt go buy a load book so I worked up to 3000fps ..
 
#11
Re: Hornady 75gr BTHP / Too slow?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ASM1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I roll 80vld's at 3000 in my 26" gun no molly,But I didnt go buy a load book so I worked up to 3000fps .. </div></div>

I think that's great. Are you doing that in an AR-15 or a bolt gun? You see the OP was unable to get to 2800 in his bolt gun, I get 2850 with 80grainer is my AR and you get 3000 in your bolt gun. Hmm, I wonder if the barrel length may have something to do with the higher velocitites. I have a 26, you have a 26, he has a 21.

No, we keep getting told barrel length doesn't matter.
 
#12
Re: Hornady 75gr BTHP / Too slow?

Well the main reason I wanted to use the Hornady 75gr's was because I have a couple 1000. I have RE15 sitting around because of a couple of AR's. I would like to use varget because I've got a bunch of that.
I knew I was probly gooing over my head when I had this 223 chambered this way. The only load data in the Hornady manual for the 75 gr's is for AR service rifles. I don't know how much difference there is for a shootable AR load and a top end load for a bolt gun with a minimum chamber, shooting Lapua brass, and then add in the long throat so the bullets can be seated out.
The reason I shoot my custom 308 so hot is, the builder (On here a lot) told me to shoot that particiular chg of Varget. I don't know how good it will shoot, but if you shoot and it doesn't clip half the other hole its you, not the rifle.
If the Hornady 75's want run with the Sierra 175's, I'll just bump a little more to explore and just shoot it.
Thanks for comments and opinions. krw
 
#16
Re: Hornady 75gr BTHP / Too slow?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sig685</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ASM1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I roll 80vld's at 3000 in my 26" gun no molly,But I didnt go buy a load book so I worked up to 3000fps .. </div></div>

I think that's great. Are you doing that in an AR-15 or a bolt gun? You see the OP was unable to get to 2800 in his bolt gun, I get 2850 with 80grainer is my AR and you get 3000 in your bolt gun. Hmm, I wonder if the barrel length may have something to do with the higher velocitites. I have a 26, you have a 26, he has a 21.

No, we keep getting told barrel length doesn't matter. </div></div>



You should add a few more inches there and you should be good..LOL
From the original Poster..
It might be a little slow but it is Hell on the farm vermin. krw


Now
He is useing this on a farm shooting varmits and the shorter barrel for potability he is not shooting form a mat here.. I have a 18" 20" and 26" 223 each for diffrent needs..
 
#17
Re: Hornady 75gr BTHP / Too slow?

Thank You ASM1, you undrstand. Lots of us redneck cattle and poultry farmers keep an old 4-wheel drive trk to feed cattle and throw dead chickens in the back. The best place to keep a trk gun is on the dash(Quick Deployment)
wink.gif
. But I've never till now had a custom rifle with a NF scope to kill vermin with but I think I can get used to it. Thanks for the PM, will keep for later use. krw
 
#18
Re: Hornady 75gr BTHP / Too slow?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't know how long your barrel is but in my 15 inch AR barrel I get 2800fps with H4895.R-15,Varget,N-140,Benchmark and AA2520 were nearly 100-150 fps slower.

Steve</div></div>
What's your H4895 charge?
 
#21
Re: Hornady 75gr BTHP / Too slow?

The Sierra max load to which you refer is a joke. The max on Hodgdon's website is 45 grains, which in my experience isn't quite to showing signs of pressure that'd worry me. Do yourself a favor and rely on the powder manufacturer's data and stay the hell away from Sierra's reloading manual. If everyone followed their manual, we'd never hit anything.
 
#22
Re: Hornady 75gr BTHP / Too slow?

hey I just read this and then went to hogdens web site.you said that you want to use varget,well they used a 75g JLK VLD wth a 25g max load running at 2907fps.I don't know if this will help just thought that I would take a looksee.still don't understand the idea of makeing a 223 load to shoot the same as a 308 load.other than you want have as much in it as you would in the 308 when it comes to the weight of powder.in my mind you are either going to shot 223 or 308.for me out to 200yrsd I'll shot the 223,and anything past that I'll grab my 308 for hunting purpose.sorry if I don't understand,and I mean no harm.
 
#23
Re: Hornady 75gr BTHP / Too slow?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TangoDown</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">23.8grns with wolf magnum primers.

Steve </div></div>
What case and how is your accuracy? What barrel/chamber are you using? </div></div>

Federal cases.They are on the soft side.This load is on the warm side also.Some cases have ejector smear and gas leakage around the primer.I'll be switching to Lapua soon.

I was just shooting this load in my AR yesterday.Trying out the new NF 2.5-10.Pretty much hitting the same splat on a 400Y steel.I've shot some .3-.4" groups with it before but usually .6 for 5 shots at 100Y because one went out.

It's a stock Armalite M15A4 with 15" barrel.Now that it's cooled down the velocity is only 2770 fps.

Steve
 
#24
Re: Hornady 75gr BTHP / Too slow?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TangoDown</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">23.8grns with wolf magnum primers.

Steve </div></div>
What case and how is your accuracy? What barrel/chamber are you using? </div></div>

Federal cases.They are on the soft side.This load is on the warm side also.Some cases have ejector smear and gas leakage around the primer.I'll be switching to Lapua soon.

I was just shooting this load in my AR yesterday.Trying out the new NF 2.5-10.Pretty much hitting the same splat on a 400Y steel.I've shot some .3-.4" groups with it before but usually .6 for 5 shots at 100Y because one went out.

It's a stock Armalite M15A4 with 15" barrel.Now that it's cooled down the velocity is only 2770 fps.

Steve </div></div>

I will try this tomorrow. I have a 16" Kreiger 1-7 1/2 twist that I want to get 2800-2850fps out of with the 75s while maintaining accuracy. I run Win brass so we will see what happens. RL15 gives me great accuracy (.5 MOA) but FPS is around 2625.
 
#25
Re: Hornady 75gr BTHP / Too slow?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sig685</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
No, we keep getting told barrel length doesn't matter. </div></div>

To throw some fuel on the fire...

I'm using the 75gr Hornady BTHP with N140 in my AR and seeing 3000fps.

How can that be???

28" barrel is how.
 
#26
Re: Hornady 75gr BTHP / Too slow?

OK - I have a few questions along the same lines (or perhaps I should start another thread).

I have a new 20" AR-15 - 1 in 7 twist “match” barrel I believe. I am trying to make it work with Sierra 77 grain Matchkings magazine fed. I have not been able to get suitable groups with H4895 (around 1”). I could get decent groups and 2820fps with this combination (23.1grains H4895) in a previous rifle (20” barrel).

A couple weeks ago I tried a so-called ladder test using this bullet with several different powders. I tried H4895, N-135, and N-133 using charges from 21.0 grains to 23.1 grains in 0.15 grain increments. The temperature was 100 degrees and I was using CCI standard primers. N-133 performed the best with 6 shots in a row going into .45" roughly. The mean powder charge of this little group (within the group) was 22.3 grains of N-133. The other powders gave me 4 round "best groups" within the 15 round group of around .7” (consecutive powder charges). One round of the N-133 ammo did not fully cycle the rifle. The final round (23.1 grains) was too hot and almost blew the primer.

I liked the results because I do not like compressed charges generally and I have destroyed a seating stem on my Redding comp die trying to pack over 23.5 grains of H4895 in the case.

Fast forward to today. I loaded up 15 rounds with 22.3 grains of N-133 and varied the seating depth by 4 thou to test that. The temperature was around 80 degrees. Almost every round failed to cycle the rifle. The groups were very poor – the best 5 round group was .8” and the others went over 1”.

On the first outing I was having a few light primer strikes- around 1 in every 15 rounds. I removed the firing pin and found that it had some small burrs along the shaft on the “guard”. Don’t know what its called – “guard” like on a sword I guess. I also swapped out the lower for a different one. The previous lower had a Timmeny trigger installed but the new one just has the “terrible” standard trigger. I did not have any light primer strike issues on the second outing. I do not believe that the lousy trigger contributed much to my poor groups as I had the rifle on bags.

I am thinking about trying Varget or H322.

Comments? Opinions?

Much thanks to anyone willing to help.

Dirk

www.StickerBallistics.com
 
#27
Re: Hornady 75gr BTHP / Too slow?

Dirk, CCI std primers are soft. You can check primer cup thickness from e.g. here:

http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php

I wouldn't use N133 with 77gr bullets. N140 is more suitable, and much easier on primer pockets. Don't have experience on N135, but IMHO go with N140. Cannot comment on other powder manufacturers.

My convenient (no drop tube/vibration) max charge is 25gr of N140 and Hornady 75gr BTHP. Chambering is Armalite's 5.56 NATO and I'm loading to mag length. Muzzle velocity for 1-9" 20" is up to 2900fps depending on temperature. Rem 7-1/2 primers at the moment, weighed S&B brass. Start lower and work up, as usual.

Re: bad grouping, don't discount the awful std trigger. Compare only results with exact same H/W configuration.
 
#28
Re: Hornady 75gr BTHP / Too slow?

Thanks JT. I don't know how you guys are getting 25 grains or even 24 grains into these little cases using a 75 grain bullet. A couple months ago I was testing H4895 with 77 grain Sierras and using a drop tube. As soon as I get to 22 grains with this powder I hear it crunching as I seat the bullet. When I got up to 24 grains or so I cracked the seating stem on my Redding die. At that point the die just made a mess inside of the die on every loading and left debris on the bullet and left marks on the loaded bullet.

Dirk
 
#29
Re: Hornady 75gr BTHP / Too slow?

Dirk,

I'm trying to think of things that are causing your bullet seating problems.

How much neck tension do you have?Work hardened brass and more than 4 thou NT might cause some seating trouble?

Could be that the inside of the neck portion of your seating die is too tight and not letting the brass expand out as the bullet is being seated.I had this happen with one of my custom dies.It took a while to figure out what the problem was.

Maybe the 77 SMK's are longer than H-75's and causing too much compression.I've been seating to an OAL of 2.245".

I got some AA-2520 I'll sell you cheap,LOL.Lot's of room left for the bullet and no crunching.....A little slowish when it's cool down though.

Steve
 
#30
Re: Hornady 75gr BTHP / Too slow?

For a bolt gun you're not restricted to M16 magazine length. Anything more than around 24 to 24.5 of Varget and you're going to start crunching/compressing charges. This can eventually crack a Redding Competition seating stem. The Forster dies seat lower on the ogive and last longer with compressed charges.

A longer drop tube can help settle the powder, as well as putting your charged cases in a loading block and putting it atop your vibratory case cleaner for a couple of seconds.

Good powders are RE-15, Varget, 4895, and VV N-135. There are quite a few others. Double-based N540 may be the best for charge-to-velocity ratio.

Better bolt gun bullets than the Hornady 75 and Sierra 77 are the Hornady 75 A-Max and the Sierra 80.

 
#31
Re: Hornady 75gr BTHP / Too slow?

Reloaded for my 16" Kreiger AR today. Used H4895, Win cases trimmed to 1.74 and sized with a RCBS Small Base X sizer die. I tested Hornady 75gr BTHP, and Rem 7 1/2 primers (tried others with no luck accuracy wise). Started at 23.8 went to 25.2 looking for the FPS I wanted (2850) and then worked around that to find a load that shot good. Found that 24.8 would give me 2840-2870fps (yes the sd's sucked) and would group 4 at 3/4 inch at 200 and throw one out 1 inch sometimes 2. Tried changing OAL and then tried going up and down (norm seat at 2.255. Went down to 2.245 and up to 2.260) of that but couldn't tame it. 100 yards was the same way 4 at 1/2 inch and 1 out a inch. My redding bushing die is down right now so I cant adjust neck tension like I need to but thats my next test. I was NOT crunching powder at 24.8 or 25.0. I couldn't really ever get the sd's to settle down today and I wonder if it was my RCBS SB X sizer die that I had used. Maybe to much neck tension is causing the erratic sd's. The load looks promising but I have some work to do. FPS are there though. If I cant get this to settle down I am going to try TAC powder. Any suggestions? Thanks?
 
#32
Re: Hornady 75gr BTHP / Too slow?

TangoDown,

From the few comments that I can remember reading,TAC powder is a bit temperature sensitive.So I haven't tried it.I learned recently from experience that AA-2520 powder,a ball powder is ridiculously temperature sensitive.So I'm staying away from all ball powders now.

You aren't getting ejector smear,excessive primer flow,loose primer pockets,etc with 24.5-25 grains of H4895? I think Hodgdon listed 24.5 as max load.In my 223 cases 24.5 gr comes halfway up the shoulder and is highly compressed.

With semi auto's I prefer 3-4 thou neck tension so the bullet doesn't get shoved back in the case as the bullet pushes into the feed ramp.Also if the charge is compressed allot the extra neck tension helps keep the bullet from sliding forward into the throat from forward momentum.

Steve
 
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