Went by my brothers garage other day and he had another 440, priming it up, and getting it ready to mount into the run stand for a 20 minute run time.
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Horse Power, Track Shit, Torque, Cubic Inches, Liters, Run What Ya Brung, Auto or Cycle
- Thread starter DarnYankeeUSMC
- Start date
Here was my 1969 mustang convertible that I've rebuilt. Bought in in 2014 and sold it this spring. I did all the work except the body/paint. Electrical, suspension, interior, motor, everything. Has 351w w/ efi, 4r70w transmission, digital gauges, coil over suspension. Did the 2016 power tour in it and drove it for a daily a few months.
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Beautiful 69 Vert!
Sounds like you drove her quite a bit before selling.....looks like a good set up under the hood with the MSD, Fuel injection, AC, 24" radiator with electric fans. Would you change anything there?
We just spent the past few days completely stripping the 1969 Mach 1. Getting a new floor, torque boxes, strut braces and partial toe boards. The complete driver side front apron including shock tower and radiator support will be cut and re-done as well. If this Mustang could talk it would have some wild ass stories.....I quite sure of that.
Taking a break from the fun projects to do some maintenance on the van's front axle:
Dana 60s have some robust parts. It's a good upper-body workout.
The project gods must be looking favorably upon me, as all the ball joints popped out with minimal hassle:
Hopefully we can get this moving back towards the assembled state before I get dragged to a NYE party tomorrow night.
Dana 60s have some robust parts. It's a good upper-body workout.
The project gods must be looking favorably upon me, as all the ball joints popped out with minimal hassle:
Hopefully we can get this moving back towards the assembled state before I get dragged to a NYE party tomorrow night.
Thought about posting this in the movie thread, but feels like it goes better here.
Saw the movie “Ferrari” a couple days ago, and for me it was just OK, but it inspired me to re-watch “Ford vs. Ferrari” and then kismet! Found this awesome interview with Peter Brock when it popped up in my feed:
classicmotorsports.com
https://classicmotorsports.com/vide...-into-a-champion-peter-brock-interview-video/
…great way to spend 1/2 hour!
Saw the movie “Ferrari” a couple days ago, and for me it was just OK, but it inspired me to re-watch “Ford vs. Ferrari” and then kismet! Found this awesome interview with Peter Brock when it popped up in my feed:
Peter Brock on penning the ’63 Corvette and making the Cobra a winner
Peter Brock on penning the ’63 Corvette and making the Cobra a winner
classicmotorsports.com
https://classicmotorsports.com/vide...-into-a-champion-peter-brock-interview-video/
…great way to spend 1/2 hour!
Hey guys .. Auto Tip of the week...
Just a reminder, if you smell odor similar to a homeless man slept in your Car that was burning his own hair with a Bic Lighter to stay warm on a cold winters night . To always look for friction burnt, mangled dead Squirrels that are lodged into your Belts and Alternator .
edit add:
going out to get new cabin air system filter and find bottle Odoban.
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Just a reminder, if you smell odor similar to a homeless man slept in your Car that was burning his own hair with a Bic Lighter to stay warm on a cold winters night . To always look for friction burnt, mangled dead Squirrels that are lodged into your Belts and Alternator .
edit add:
going out to get new cabin air system filter and find bottle Odoban.
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I am so jealous of you guys with your own shops and/or lifts in your garage. So fucking jealous
Depends on how long you want parts to last, but 115 psi will make a ways over 4000 hp. Probably a little north of 4000 ft lbs torque. And that'll throw parts out
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Checking out my uncles pulling tractor the other day. The turbo could darn near suck my head right in. Apparently it's obsolete at only 2500-3000hp. The new tractor does closer to 5k.
The money they stick in these tax write offs is hard to comprehend.
The money they stick in these tax write offs is hard to comprehend.
I've got to go chat with 2 or 3 machine shops to "interview" them so to speak after the experience I had at the last machine shop I used wasnt fantastic. Am I out of line bringing in a typed up sheet like this so that I get all my questions answered and get their opinions on things? I have certain parts I want used(like the King XPC bearings) and certain tolerances I am aiming for after doing a bunch of research on them. I dont want to simply drop a box of shit off and say "put this together" like I did last time, mostly because "I didnt know what I didnt know" so I am trying to go into this with a little better idea and be a little better informed. I "assume" a lot of the stuff on my lists is SOP at most machine shops.
BLOCK: 6.0 aluminum LS
Hot tank/clean
Measure cylinder bores
Measure cam tunnel bores
Inspect lifter bores
Measure main bores
-line hone?
-studs vs. bolts(dont have a full set of bolts so need to buy something)?
-pin caps vs. dowels on inner bolt(like LSX block)?
-piston oil squirters(Katech vs. Get M Garage)?
Hone/bore cylinder bores to fit pistons
Deck block
Cam bearings(King XPC vs. Durabond 25T?)
Main bearings(King XPC)
-desired clearance of ~0016
Need pistons/rings
4032 vs. 2618 for road racing?
-interested in Mahle Power Pack 4032 pistons
945 floating pin for gen 4 rods
As small an oversize as possible to keep cylinder wall strength…
Rings gapped for N/A road race usage
Rods: GM Gen 4 4.8
Replace bushings/hone for piston pin fit(King/durabond?)
Check/hone big end if needed
ARP Pro bolts
bearings(king XPC)
-Desired clearance of 0020-0021
Crank: GM Gen 4 4.8
Hot tank/clean
Measure journals
Check straightness/straighten if needed
Balance
Polish journals
Heads: GM 821 w/hollow stem intake
Hot tank
Inspect
Measure guides
Check seats
Mill head to raise compression(unknown until I can measure PTV, but suspect 020-030)
Open push rod holes for 3/8 push rods
BLOCK: 6.0 aluminum LS
Hot tank/clean
Measure cylinder bores
Measure cam tunnel bores
Inspect lifter bores
Measure main bores
-line hone?
-studs vs. bolts(dont have a full set of bolts so need to buy something)?
-pin caps vs. dowels on inner bolt(like LSX block)?
-piston oil squirters(Katech vs. Get M Garage)?
Hone/bore cylinder bores to fit pistons
Deck block
Cam bearings(King XPC vs. Durabond 25T?)
Main bearings(King XPC)
-desired clearance of ~0016
Need pistons/rings
4032 vs. 2618 for road racing?
-interested in Mahle Power Pack 4032 pistons
945 floating pin for gen 4 rods
As small an oversize as possible to keep cylinder wall strength…
Rings gapped for N/A road race usage
Rods: GM Gen 4 4.8
Replace bushings/hone for piston pin fit(King/durabond?)
Check/hone big end if needed
ARP Pro bolts
bearings(king XPC)
-Desired clearance of 0020-0021
Crank: GM Gen 4 4.8
Hot tank/clean
Measure journals
Check straightness/straighten if needed
Balance
Polish journals
Heads: GM 821 w/hollow stem intake
Hot tank
Inspect
Measure guides
Check seats
Mill head to raise compression(unknown until I can measure PTV, but suspect 020-030)
Open push rod holes for 3/8 push rods
"Milling the head to gain compression ". The head gasket choice is a cheaper option. I'm not really familiar with what is available for an LS but since it's the platform of choice right now. There's probably a vast choice of quality gaskets with different thickness.
Most places are going to recommend what they are familiar with when it comes to pistons, rings and bearing types. They will most likely install what you want if you provide it. Which will cause some delays in your build.
Just for your cylinders they will have to measure and see how much needs to be removed. Then you will have to get the pistons and rings to match. Once they are in hand at the shop they can get to matching those parts.
Are you starting with a new block or used? A new crank or used?
I'm sure they will give you some guidance and should not have any issues with sitting down and going over your list. If they do it's time to take your wallet and go down the road.
Nope, not out of line whatever IMO. Seems like it's much preferable to walking in there with a vague idea and shrugging your shoulders when important questions are asked.
There are surprisingly few good head gasket options for the LS, at least in the realm of multi-layer steel (MLS). There are GM and OE-equivalent options for 0.051 and 0.055; Cometic makes thinner stuff but at a significant price (like $100/each). Eventually, the limiting factor is piston-to-head clearance since most OE pistons are 0.008" out of the hole and aftermarket parts are nominally at zero-deck, so going more than ~0.010" thinner isn't practical unless you like seeing the outline of the combustion chamber embossed on the piston (been there, done that, somehow didn't pinch the ring lands closed so I got really lucky despite not having a frickin' clue what I was doing at that time).
Occasionally one can find a shop that will weld up the chamber and then recut it (Advanced Induction used to, but no longer offers that service). C5R heads have tiny chambers but are currently only available as unfinished bare castings for $1800/each; figure about that much again to get them machined and assembled. That pretty much leaves angle milling as the chamber reduction method of choice.
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Had a friend in school that his family was into this in a big way. They ran diesels. The turbos where about the size of a VW.
Rolling coal, this was so cool, and the sound of the turbos....just screaming.
I don't even want to think what it cost.
Im doing a de-stroked 6.0 with 4.8 crank. You end up with like 9:1 compression if you do nothing due to the short stroke. LS3 heads have MASSIVE chambers(68-70cc) so I can shave them 20-30thou and bump compression with no other issues except possible piston to valve clearance issues(which I cant measure until I get my cam). Were going to run GM MLS gaskets as they are 7 layer I believe it is. If you go to a Cometic MLS gasket I think they are only 5 layer and maybe only 3. Shaving the head is the way to go to bump compression.
block, crank and rods are all used Gen 4 GM stuff.
yea thats why I have tried to pencil out this stuff so I dont walk in and go "I dont know, whatever is fine" and then I get a sub-par product. Like my current Mazda motor, I really have no clue what bearings and rings are in it. I "think" it has ACL's...but what flavor of ACL I have no clue. I dont want to repeat those mistakes.
Why not put the engine together yourself? That way you know what parts are in it and you know what the bearing clearances are, what fasteners are torqued to, etc.
because if I need to machine something to set a clearance I dont have that ability and im not going to go back and forth to a machine shop to get this honed or that honed or the crank polished a little bit more, etc... Honestly if I was a machine shop owner and somebody wanted something done like 90% of the way, then come get everything to assemble themselves I would probably show them the door. Because when shit doesnt go right "the machinist must have machined it wrong so my clearances are fucked". Its just easier to let them do everything and they can basically set clearances while they are doing various machining steps. The cost to have the block final assembled is nothing in the grand scheme. Yea im fully capable of doing it, would rather just let the machine shop do it.
They make bearings that are +- .001 and so on so that YOU get the exact measurement you want and don't rely on a machine shop to hopefully give you what you asked for. Then YOU know it's done right. I'd personally rather spend the money it takes to pay a shop to assemble the engine elsewhere like on the EFI or throttle body, etc.
And + or - .-001 doesnt mean shit when you are 005 over or under need to be machine to the next 001... or you need your main caps honed 0007 and then a line hone to bring everything to the 001... A machine shop that is assembling a short block will likely give a shit about those numbers if they are assembling the lower end. If they arent, I could see them not giving two shits about the numbers they hit... "fuck it, not our problem"...
Again, I would never, personally, ask a machine shop to bring me to the 001 tolerance, or 0001 tolerance, only for me to bring everything back to my house to assemble myself. If they are assembling and cant hit those numbers, well, I didnt do my homework and picked the wrong shop.
Having a short block assembled is a very small portion of total machine work cost and USUALLY when you do that a machine shop stands behind their work.
My experience on the cost to have a machine shop assemble a bottom end is pretty minuscule in the grand scheme of an engine build and USUALLY they stand behind their work.
You should probably just press the easy button and buy a crate engine from somewhere like Texas Speed. This is my last comment toward your project since you think you know more than me. Have fun.
The last engine I had machined and assembled at what was supposed to be a reputable race engine machine shop was an absolute catastrophe.
What kind of engine shop puts rod caps on backwards? Bores every cylinder to a different size?
I pulled it down, replaced all the shit they did wrong, reassembled it, and went racing.
What kind of engine shop puts rod caps on backwards? Bores every cylinder to a different size?
I pulled it down, replaced all the shit they did wrong, reassembled it, and went racing.
Do NOT let them do any work on the cylinders until you have both pistons and rings in hand.
Most modern pistons and rings have specs for cylinder wall finish.....and they can differ a shit ton.
If you just have the bores slopped and mopped it will most likely be a generic finish that your new pistons or rings won't like.
I would seriously consider getting aftermarket rods if you want the engine to last.
They aren't that expensive as companies like Eagle and a few others can hook you up for not a bunch more than the mod work on stock rods cost and the stockers still won't be at the aftermarket level.
Just a random LS rod....do not know which one you really need for your ap..
I've done the above plenty of times and it's worked out fine. Especially on a simple engine like the LS, it's not particularly challenging to select the bearing dimensions that are required to hit the desired clearances, and it's not like things are going to change between the machine shop and your garage.
This is good advice - the piston-wall clearance and the ring end gap will vary depending upon the parts and the usage. I got this chart with the Wiseco set that I recently purchased:
yea im not retarded on the cylinder bores... im going to have the machine shop order pistons once its determined what the min over bore will be to clean up the cylinders.
@JMGlasgow when did I state that I knew more than you? I never did, you put words in my mouth. I simply disagree with taking stuff to a machine shop, having them do 90%+ of the work, and then running off to my house to do the last 10% of the work because I dont trust them to put it together properly. If I dont trust them to do that step correctly why should I trust them to do the other 90% of the work??? My goal in finding a competent machine shop with my above list SHOULD eliminate getting a shody build thats just haphazardly thrown together.
@JMGlasgow when did I state that I knew more than you? I never did, you put words in my mouth. I simply disagree with taking stuff to a machine shop, having them do 90%+ of the work, and then running off to my house to do the last 10% of the work because I dont trust them to put it together properly. If I dont trust them to do that step correctly why should I trust them to do the other 90% of the work??? My goal in finding a competent machine shop with my above list SHOULD eliminate getting a shody build thats just haphazardly thrown together.
Gen 4 LS rods are pretty stout and have been run to double the HP I will ever make... They are a pretty decent rod.
Nobody that I am aware of makes a set of OTS rods in the length I need and custom rods are $$$$$$$. I already have the rods and am just going to swap the cap bolts for ARP Pro series bolts and have them re-bushed.
Even with aftermarket rods with new bushings you STILL have to have them honed to final size, most dont just slap together.
I was able to wrap up the front axle rebuild on my E350 yesterday. Since a D60 needs to be stripped down pretty much to the housing in order to replace all the wear items (including the inner axle seals), it only made sense to reassemble it with a new Eaton (Detroit) Truetrac helical LSD (AKA Torsen) to match the one that I installed in the rear axle during the initial build:
Got that thing shimmed via trial-and-error to the point where I was confident in the gear mesh, slapped on the rest of the parts back on, hit all my new grease zerks, and did a proper "toe and go" alignment:
These plates from TMR make this task so easy on a solid front axle - highly recommended.
Unfortunately we don't have any snow or ice to facilitate testing of the new front diff, but a couple boosted footbrake launches on a gravel road suggests that she lays down the power to all four wheels with minimal drama.
The MGM front spring mounts result in the coils being laterally positioned just a bit too narrow, with the result that the passenger's side lightly contacts the frame on occasion (particularly during left-wheel jounce). I put some turns on the adjustable track bar, and have now moved the problem to the other side. Did I count how many turns of adjustment that I made so that I can easily take out about half that much? No, my dumb ass did not do that
That's a problem to address later.
Got that thing shimmed via trial-and-error to the point where I was confident in the gear mesh, slapped on the rest of the parts back on, hit all my new grease zerks, and did a proper "toe and go" alignment:
These plates from TMR make this task so easy on a solid front axle - highly recommended.
Unfortunately we don't have any snow or ice to facilitate testing of the new front diff, but a couple boosted footbrake launches on a gravel road suggests that she lays down the power to all four wheels with minimal drama.
The MGM front spring mounts result in the coils being laterally positioned just a bit too narrow, with the result that the passenger's side lightly contacts the frame on occasion (particularly during left-wheel jounce). I put some turns on the adjustable track bar, and have now moved the problem to the other side. Did I count how many turns of adjustment that I made so that I can easily take out about half that much? No, my dumb ass did not do that
That's a problem to address later.
If there were 40 hrs in a day I could be done. Besides building the motor I have been doing body work so that the car is ready when it's done. I got the first coat of primer on the hood and fenders. The nose and headlight buckets are ready for primer. The rest of the body is getting close.
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A couple updates:
1) I dropped off my spare LSA block and the piston kit at the local machine shop this morning. Met Marv the machinist, who strikes me as a guy who I want machining my domestic pushrod engine. We discussed my goals for the project, and then went down a list of checks on the block that Marv thinks to be prudent, but he also stated several times "we don't see those problems anymore".
While I was there, the local hotshot tuner was opening the gates of hell on the chassis dyno. That was a great dose of motivation.
2) On my way out of the parking lot, I came across an unplowed private road and performed some 0-40 MPH pulls with the van. The amount of traction in snowy/slushy/icy conditions was nothing short of astonishing, and the only signs of anything going on in the front diff was some light wiggle of the steering wheel (basically very mild torque steer as the diff bias did its thing). I remain delighted with this mod.
1) I dropped off my spare LSA block and the piston kit at the local machine shop this morning. Met Marv the machinist, who strikes me as a guy who I want machining my domestic pushrod engine. We discussed my goals for the project, and then went down a list of checks on the block that Marv thinks to be prudent, but he also stated several times "we don't see those problems anymore".
While I was there, the local hotshot tuner was opening the gates of hell on the chassis dyno. That was a great dose of motivation.
2) On my way out of the parking lot, I came across an unplowed private road and performed some 0-40 MPH pulls with the van. The amount of traction in snowy/slushy/icy conditions was nothing short of astonishing, and the only signs of anything going on in the front diff was some light wiggle of the steering wheel (basically very mild torque steer as the diff bias did its thing). I remain delighted with this mod.
Engine work and body work at the same time?
I wonder what it's like to do one task without tripping over parts and tools from other tasks.
The motor is at my buddies machine shop. I have a corner to store stuff and drag it out when I get time to work on it. The body shop is in my garage. The woman hates it because she's parking her daily driver outside and her 66 Oldsmobile is outside under a cover.
Years ago I built a motor and transmission in the dining room. Once you do that you can get away with a lot more. A few months of parking outside is acceptable, compared to the alternative.
I've built a few Dana 60 rears for some of the Mopar crowd in my area. The Dana engineers are a backwards bunch with this rear end. Carrier shims for setting backlash are UNDER the press fit carrier cone and rollers. The pinion depth shim is under the press fit rear pinion bearing race. I ended up buying a set of extra bearings and honing the IDs out on the carrier bearings to a slip fit so I can easily work up the shim thicknesses for a proper backlash setting. I sanded down a rear pinion bearing race OD to a slip fit for easily selecting a pinion shim. Once I know my shim thicknesses, I final assemble with the final press fit bearings and recheck the pattern.
At least with a carrier change with existing gears, all you need to do is duplicate the backlash you had before teardown. I add .004"-.005" shim thickness on each side from the slip drag fit I was using to check the gear pattern/backlash for establishing some preload on the new bearings.
Here's a link to an excellent article on hypoid gear patterns from diyford.com. The pics illustrate what shim thickness directions you need to change to move your patterns in your desired direction. Take note of the differences that a pinion depth change will move the pattern between face hobbed gears and face milled gears. Ford 9" and early 8.8s have face milled gears with tapered gear tooth depths, and late 8.8s and a lot of other brand gears are constant depth face hobbed gears. https://www.diyford.com/ford-axle-ring-pinion-assembly-guide/
1000 hp Ford against a Tesla Plaid. Ford slipped his clutch a bit or he would have been closer.
When it comes to drag racing, an automatic trans is hard to beat for consistent launches. The 10 speed autos that Ford and GM co-engineered easily outrun the stickshift versions of the same car. There's plenty of the new 10 speeds running 9s in the quarter mile.
That particular version of the GT500 uses a Tremec dual-clutch transmission (DCT) - not quite an automatic or manual in the way that we've traditionally defined them. As I understand things, tuning for that specific transmission is pretty difficult, so that car may have been handicapped by the gearbox's inability to properly manage what is a substantial amount of extra power (148 MPH trap speed in a ~4000 lb car suggests that the 1000 HP claim is legit).
Without a doubt, modern autos are the quicker way down the track. The Hellcat is one of the best examples - rowing your own is probably 0.5-0.6 slower for a good-but-not-great driver.
The Teslas are also stupid quick off the line and have enough power to carry a lot of speed out the back door, so giving one of those cars a couple tenths in the first 60ft means a very difficult chase to the stripe.
Without a doubt, modern autos are the quicker way down the track. The Hellcat is one of the best examples - rowing your own is probably 0.5-0.6 slower for a good-but-not-great driver.
The Teslas are also stupid quick off the line and have enough power to carry a lot of speed out the back door, so giving one of those cars a couple tenths in the first 60ft means a very difficult chase to the stripe.
Our ‘26 Model T Coupe w/440 Chrysler and a ‘68 C10 we’ve had for going on 35 years….at the local Cruise.
Last year I did some similar maintenance on my 84 CJ7 with a Dana 44 front. Ton of work to replace those $5 seals so I went ahead and did all the ball joints as well and the manual locking hubs were in dire need of attention so it was a good learning experience pulling it all apart. I really struggled to get the gear out of the front of the housing. "Just get a couple pry bars behind it and it pops right out" ..... Yeah right.I was able to wrap up the front axle rebuild on my E350 yesterday. Since a D60 needs to be stripped down pretty much to the housing in order to replace all the wear items (including the inner axle seals), it only made sense to reassemble it with a new Eaton (Detroit) Truetrac helical LSD (AKA Torsen) to match the one that I installed in the rear axle during the initial build:
View attachment 8317325
View attachment 8317326
Got that thing shimmed via trial-and-error to the point where I was confident in the gear mesh, slapped on the rest of the parts back on, hit all my new grease zerks, and did a proper "toe and go" alignment:
View attachment 8317327
These plates from TMR make this task so easy on a solid front axle - highly recommended.
Unfortunately we don't have any snow or ice to facilitate testing of the new front diff, but a couple boosted footbrake launches on a gravel road suggests that she lays down the power to all four wheels with minimal drama.
The MGM front spring mounts result in the coils being laterally positioned just a bit too narrow, with the result that the passenger's side lightly contacts the frame on occasion (particularly during left-wheel jounce). I put some turns on the adjustable track bar, and have now moved the problem to the other side. Did I count how many turns of adjustment that I made so that I can easily take out about half that much? No, my dumb ass did not do that
I ended up putting a motorcycle soft tiedown strap around it and hooked up its winch cable. Kinda funny, it was like pulling it's own tooth as it broke loose with a bang and dropped into a box of rags.
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Auto transmissions have been more consistent and faster for quite a while.
Firs time I drove an automatic dual clutch PDK I was blown away @ how fast it shifts.
A lot of Dana axles are set up to use a case spreader to ease the task of pulling the carrier out. Once the cover is off, there is usually a hole at 3 and 9 o'clock for the spreading device's pins to engage in. If you look at E.Bryant's pics, you will see his spreader at work.
Carrier shims are selected to provide about a .004-.006" preload squeeze per side beyond just a simple slip in fit without the use of a spreader. I have seen some shop manuals specify using a dial indicator to track how far the case spreader has spread the housing. The job can be done without a spreader, but the right tools do make it easier.
This was my first diff install using a case spreader (the various GM and Ford corporate axles that I've previously worked on don't use such voodoo). It was rather nice not having to pry and beat on the parts to get them out and in, and obviously the shimming arrangement of a Dana carrier doesn't allow for the usual process of forcing in a shim pack as the final step before installing the carrier bearings caps.
As you previously stated, making a set of setup bearings was a huge time-saver. I used a die grinder and hard rolls to take a few thou off the bearing inner race ID, and then it was extremely easy to test-fit shims until I obtained the same backlash as was measured with the old diff (about 0.010" on my well-used axle). We then threw about 0.006" on each side to establish good preload. It ended up being one of the easiest diff installs I've done.
My oldest son took a break from his algebra homework to come out to the shop as my buddy and I were figuring out the shim stack. He asked what the heck we were doing, I said "gear math", and he decided to go back to studying.
I think the worst part of the whole diff install was pressing in the new inner oil seals, and that was mostly my fault. The tool that I purchased looked as if it was capable of installing both seals at once, but that's folly because they won't start straight and it only gets worse the further they go. Eventually I figured this out, borrowed a couple of pieces from my ball joint kit to allow the tool to seat properly against the case on one side, and then it was smooth sailing.
Now that makes more sense, thanks for the education. I picked around on the web and never came across a case spreader for removal.
Having the correct tools makes a HUGE difference for sure. Without that winch I would have never pulled that gear out.
