Hot Take; Putin needs to just level Ukraine to save us from ourselves

[BipThatInstance]

Didnt read anything except the OP. Just here to remind that dirty bonesmoker Putin to launch nuclear weapons on the sodomites in Odessa, Kyiv and Kharkiv so I can laugh at all the middle aged white women and fat redditors with UKR flags in their social media

 

[Average guy]

It's way more western than midwest.
I haven't lived there for almost 2 decades, but it isn't anything like living on the other side of the Missouri river

You cross the Missouri River is the west. Best illustration is Pierre and Fort Pierre SD. One town is seed caps and the other cowboy hats.

 

[Mike Casselton]

You cross the Missouri River is the west. Best illustration is Pierre and Fort Pierre SD. One town is seed caps and the other cowboy hats.

Total truth.

For those that have never lived there, it's pronounced "peer", not Pierre.

Same thing in Belle Fourche. It's Foosh. The R is silent.

 

[Average guy]

Total truth.

For those that have never lived there, it's pronounced "peer", not Pierre.

Same thing in Belle Fourche. It's Foosh. The R is silent.

I ran that Belle Fourche/Tri state area for a lot of years in the Bentonite patch

 

[OkieMike]

I mentioned a while back on a different thread that my wife has extended family in Ukraine... They're way west. Damn near to the Slovak border. So I doubt they're seeing much in the way of fighting and destruction.

I also got some insight from a good friend of mine who is from Ukraine. He emigrated here when he was a kid. Still has family there, as does his wife... D'nipro area. I asked him about the mess... He told me his mom went back for a visit a couple years ago. She had planned to stay for 2 weeks. She came home after 5 days. The place had become such a toilet she couldn't stand to be there any longer.

My take on the whole mess?

I can't feature propping up Ukraine so they can become another candyassed EU socialist welfare state that petitions against my 2A rights. Why help them trade one dictatorial oligarchy for another?

Let 'em fight their way out of it themselves... Maybe they'll appreciate liberty if they have to earn it.

Mike

 

[brianf]

I think it’s less about Ukraine, they are just the word of the moment.

It’s more about limiting Russian influence and reducing their access to resources.

Ukraine is and was a cesspool but its better than Russia.

 

[762libertarian]

I'm really writing this against better judgement, but here goes...

1) Every single penny in the defense budget of my country (Europe) is spent to create deterrence against Russia. Russian expansionism is not "the thing of the day" except for on US TV channels. For everybody living next to Russia, this has been a thing since the time of the tsars. If you hadn't heard about Russia and Ukraine before the US democrats replaced their face masks with blue and yellow flags, that's because you are in the US mainstream media bubble. Out in the real world, it was a thing during and before covid. Don't blame the Ukrainians for that.

2) Having said that, everybody from Boris Johnson to Volodimir Zelensky knows perfectly well that Ukraine is an extremely corrupt country and pretty much a failed state. The point is that Ukraine is rising from being a puppet state and a weakling to becoming a decent, functional, independent country. Russia wants it to be an obedient minion, so it had to strike now, before Ukraine had sorted itself out. This war has waaay less to do with whatever the current or previous US president did or didn't do than most americans seem to think.

God bless America and all, but whenever the topic of eastern Europe comes up, I just "no hablo amerikano" and try to drift out of the conversation. The one American (except for Mearsheimer) that I really respect on this topic is Kotkin. Listen to that guy, especially his recent interview on Lex Friedmans podcast.

 

[Lostin89]

I'm really writing this against better judgement, but here goes...

1) Every single penny in the defense budget of my country (Europe) is spent to create deterrence against Russia. Russian expansionism is not "the thing of the day" except for on US TV channels. For everybody living next to Russia, this has been a thing since the time of the tsars. If you hadn't heard about Russia and Ukraine before the US democrats replaced their face masks with blue and yellow flags, that's because you are in the US mainstream media bubble. Out in the real world, it was a thing during and before covid. Don't blame the Ukrainians for that.

2) Having said that, everybody from Boris Johnson to Volodimir Zelensky knows perfectly well that Ukraine is an extremely corrupt country and pretty much a failed state. The point is that Ukraine is rising from being a puppet state and a weakling to becoming a decent, functional, independent country. Russia wants it to be an obedient minion, so it had to strike now, before Ukraine had sorted itself out. This war has waaay less to do with whatever the current or previous US president did or didn't do than most americans seem to think.

God bless America and all, but whenever the topic of eastern Europe comes up, I just "no hablo amerikano" and try to drift out of the conversation. The one American (except for Mearsheimer) that I really respect on this topic is Kotkin. Listen to that guy, especially his recent interview on Lex Friedmans podcast.

Most of us heard about Ukraine when they were the single largest collection of Nazis in the world. They've been corrupt longer than any of us have been alive....if I had to guess, probably since those two states unified in 1919.

Lemme know where that 40b in funding went....bc a large portion of it is was to keep them as a corrupt little puppet state. The only thing they were trying to rise out of was one pocket into another. Per the usual for a country within a few spots of corruption levels of Russia.

There are plenty of boots on the ground European reporter's who have been talking about the corruption and destruction of Ukrainians by there own government for about 8 years now. You ignored all of that.

The problem here is you are so bolstered into thinking your correct, no amount of contrary viewpoints, reports from your own reporters, or history is going to change your mind.

Here is my stance, fuck them both.

They are both corrupt as hell, and our country shouldn't be anywhere near that shit show. Let alone giving 40 billion (by the way, that's triple what your shitshow EU has given) to a government who will NEVER actually use it against Russia.

 

[762libertarian]

Here is my stance, fuck them both.

They are both corrupt as hell, and our country shouldn't be anywhere near that shit show. Let alone giving 40 billion (by the way, that's triple what your shitshow EU has given) to a government who will NEVER actually use it against Russia.

Don't get me wrong, I don't blame you one bit for not wanting to spend tax dollars on Ukraine. No hard feelings from me on that point. I live a short drive from this mess. I know Ukrainians. I know Russians. I (kinda) speak their language. I know Ukraine is corrupt. I do not deny that. I know the EU has been letting the US handle the security for our entire continent for decades. I don't expect a taxpayer from Ohio or Texas to have a big interest in Ukraine.

With all that said, the trajectory of Ukraine, with or without the US, is to clean up their messy institutions and build a proper republic. The US has tried to aid this process in its usual, heavy handed way, and Russia is trying to stop it, in its usual, brutal way. I'm fine with the US pulling out.

But have some understanding for us Europeans who are sick and tired of being pushed around by the ultra corrupt, violent, expansionist mess that is the Russian Federation. They need to be slapped so hard they realize they have to reign in their leaders and start acting like a normal country. They are wasting their resources on such incredible bullshit, becoming more and more retarded and poor every year, and they are blaming the west for it all.

 

[TheGerman]

Are we there yet?

The more these faggots beg us for money like we owe them something, the more I just want to see them get wrecked.

 

[tomcatmv]

Are we there yet?

The more these faggots beg us for money like we owe them something, the more I just want to see them get wrecked.

Ok, forgive me Lord as it is your day, but my .02$ on this is---Fuck Ukraine, fuck Russia, fuck the EU, fuck Brandon and the whole swamp in DC and put some fucking real defenses against the invaders on our southern border, especially here in Texas.

 

[NoDopes]

Trump's slogan for 2024 - "Save America!"

 

[lariat]

Trump's slogan for 2024 - "Save America!"

That would be a slogan that would work well right now.

 

[Mk16.5]

Corrupt? Where is it not?

 

[penguinofsleep]

"Big Picture" - Yes, Ukraine is corrupt and sending money "there" to disappear into little black holes is not a good use of US tax payer dollars.

On the flip side, if the world does get crazy in the next 10-20 years, for "only" several billion dollars, now the US only has to face 1 major global power + a handful of smaller nations and not 2 global powers + a larger handful of smaller nations. That doesn't sound like the worst money the US has spent in the last 25 years. Bluntly put, I'm amazed so few people have said or thought about it this way. It sounds like a complete bargain vs what the US spent in Iraq, Afghanistan, and every where else in the last 25 years. Not that any of those things went well or were managed with peak efficiency... but that's a different story.

At a personal level, I believe both of the above. And I don't have anti Russia, Ukraine, or whatever other feelings at a personal level. Have met people from both places that I like and dislike. Mostly just want to all to be over. Sad part to me is that most people in these places (and previous war zones) were / will be the ones who really pay the hard prices because their local politicians that 50/50 they already hate got greedy while we just see our dollar devalued. But most of us on this forum live in the US and I bet the core of what most of us feel about this is that it may as well be the US making it out OK if this whole thing is already going to go bad anyways.

Lastly, I don't see why so many people want to blame Ukraine / Russia for the (many) failures of the US government domestically. Two totally separate issues no? Ukraine or no, I bet the border crisis, inflation, general decline of purchasing power parity today vs 50 years ago, mediocre at best justice system, energy issues (including gas prices), gun grabbers, and 5000 other issues would still exist. Hence why I believe Ukraine is just an excuse right now for our "leaders". Just like covid was. etc.

Granted, no war or corruption anywhere for the next 100 years would be best... but you know, reality and history say otherwise.

 

[RUTGERS95]

just need for Russia to win outright so no more dollars go there. Let Russia have Ukraine, it's theres

 

[n2ishun]

just need for Russia to win outright so no more dollars go there. Let Russia have Ukraine, it's theres

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[supercorndogs]

How does one go about finding an obscure 11 month old thread to necrobumb...

Like, you go to the Bear Pit where you have never posted before, scroll though 40 pages, and then bam, there is something I want to post about....

 

[OkieMike]

How does one go about finding an obscure 11 month old thread to necrobumb...

Like, you go to the Bear Pit where you have never posted before, scroll though 40 pages, and then bam, there is something I want to post about....

"Similar threads" strikes again. It's bit me several times too.

Mike

 

[RUTGERS95]

There's ?-------------------------------------------------------------->
<-------------------------------------------------------------------There's ?
They're s ?
Theirs ?
@THEIS ?

true but voice recognition doesn't always apply it correctly. that said, fuck yourself

 

[n2ishun]

true but voice recognition doesn't always apply it correctly. that said, fuck yourself

Says the man too fucking lazy to type.
Yea, I know, modern problems, so hard to do.

 

[RUTGERS95]

Says the man too fucking lazy to type.
Yea, I know, modern problems, so hard to do.

you're still a fucking loser and it's on display

go suck a cock, bet you're great at that

 

[Zoomie]

Putin isn't our friend. He's not a good guy and he's spent a lot of time trying to undermine our country. He believes expanding Russian territory is good for his popularity at any cost, so he keeps rolling across countries. He's using the guise of protecting Russian "citizens" as his invasion pretext. But what he's actually doing is repeating a process Russia has used across history to expand (including across Ukraine, Crimea and the Donbas). He's purposely mass migrating Russian speaking people into these areas and then claiming Russian dominion. It's despicable, irresponsible 15th century thinking from a capricious, nuclear armed idiot man child. But he needs bread and circuses because they have a very fragile, petro dependent, and some might say, declining country.

NATO, for its part, knew Ukraine would be a red line. It's like moving Russian forces into Mexico (South American and Caribbean intervention by Russia and China subject for another thread). Ukraine was a buffer, and the status quo in Scandinavia also supported that line (how'd that work out btw, Russia?). Still, NATO while not admitting Ukraine pushed that line and provided a pretext for war. They also did zero about Crimea. So It's the Euro's mess and the US by extension, but they did it anyway. Stupid.

Ukraine, likewise, is a completely corrupt country who pretends to be a democracy. They're nothing of the sort. They've had a tenuous relationship with Russia throughout their history, but you'll also find a fair amount of their citizens have relatives and friends across their borders. They knew the boundaries. They pushed them. Reap what you sow.

We've spent trillions over the past 20 years in places like Iraq and Afghanistan and more importantly lost over 7,000 good men. Men we could use right now. I wouldn't trade 500 Uke's for one of our fallen. Not a single one, and I'm not about to watch more good men die for someone's folly, shallow thinking, insidious motives or mouth breathing stupidity. There were better battle plans than arming up a country to start a war of attrition with the ultimate goal I suppose of wearing them down to "negotiate". It ain't happening.

Here's an idea for State, how about you return to pumping so much oil the price drops enough to crash the Russian economy? Not a single shot fired and someone else's family doesn't pay for your war. Instead you've created Russo-Sino Alliance, provided more than enough petro largesse to fund Russian war efforts and created more instability in Europe than there has been since WWII.

I have seniors in my community, good people who have spent their entire lives building our country, who can't afford groceries. Families struggling to make ends meet and provide a better future for their children. Out of control taxes that steal from productive people, and hand it out to layabouts or people who aren't even citizens. Enough, not a single dime more for Ukraine. It's time to pick our priorities and let the Euro's take out their rubbish. IMVHO.

 

[232593]

Putin isn't our friend. He's not a good guy and he's spent a lot of time trying to undermine our country. He believes expanding Russian territory is good for his popularity at any cost, so he keeps rolling across countries. He's using the guise of protecting Russian "citizens" as his invasion pretext. But what he's actually doing is repeating a process Russia has used across history to expand (including across Ukraine, Crimea and the Donbas). He's purposely mass migrating Russian speaking people into these areas and then claiming Russian dominion. It's despicable, irresponsible 15th century thinking from a capricious, nuclear armed idiot man child. But he needs bread and circuses because they have a very fragile, petro dependent, and some might say, declining country.

NATO, for its part, knew Ukraine would be a red line. It's like moving Russian forces into Mexico (South American and Caribbean intervention by Russia and China subject for another thread). Ukraine was a buffer, and the status quo in Scandinavia also supported that line (how'd that work out btw, Russia?). Still, NATO while not admitting Ukraine pushed that line and provided a pretext for war. They also did zero about Crimea. So It's the Euro's mess and the US by extension, but they did it anyway. Stupid.

Ukraine, likewise, is a completely corrupt country who pretends to be a democracy. They're nothing of the sort. They've had a tenuous relationship with Russia throughout their history, but you'll also find a fair amount of their citizens have relatives and friends across their borders. They knew the boundaries. They pushed them. Reap what you sow.

We've spent trillions over the past 20 years in places like Iraq and Afghanistan and more importantly lost over 7,000 good men. Men we could use right now. I wouldn't trade 500 Uke's for one of our fallen. Not a single one, and I'm not about to watch more good men die for someone's folly, shallow thinking, insidious motives or mouth breathing stupidity. There were better battle plans than arming up a country to start a war of attrition with the ultimate goal I suppose of wearing them down to "negotiate". It ain't happening.

Here's an idea for State, how about you return to pumping so much oil the price drops enough to crash the Russian economy? Not a single shot fired and someone else's family doesn't pay for your war. Instead you've created Russo-Sino Alliance, provided more than enough petro largesse to fund Russian war efforts and created more instability in Europe than there has been since WWII.

I have seniors in my community, good people who have spent their entire lives building our country, who can't afford groceries. Families struggling to make ends meet and provide a better future for their children. Out of control taxes that steal from productive people, and hand it out to layabouts or people who aren't even citizens. Enough, not a single dime more for Ukraine. It's time to pick our priorities and let the Euro's take out their rubbish. IMVHO.

Unfortunately the retards in this administration will never return to the level of petroleum extraction and production seen in the past. They are stuck on the stupid of the green narrative.

I also suspect that they actually enjoy seeing what they’ve inflicted on the seniors that you mentioned in your last paragraph. Remember, leftists are twisted evil degenerates.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Putin isn't our friend. He's not a good guy and he's spent a lot of time trying to undermine our country. He believes expanding Russian territory is good for his popularity at any cost, so he keeps rolling across countries. He's using the guise of protecting Russian "citizens" as his invasion pretext. But what he's actually doing is repeating a process Russia has used across history to expand (including across Ukraine, Crimea and the Donbas). He's purposely mass migrating Russian speaking people into these areas and then claiming Russian dominion. It's despicable, irresponsible 15th century thinking from a capricious, nuclear armed idiot man child. But he needs bread and circuses because they have a very fragile, petro dependent, and some might say, declining country.

So what you are saying is you are mad that Putin is doing exactly what the USA government has spent decades doing to others.
And you are also mad that Putin dares to try to undermine the USA, just as the USA has been trying to undermine Russia for decades.
But hey at least he knows his name and what he is, unlike our fool for a president that doesn't even know if he's a president or vice president or senator.

There aren't any good folks in this mess.
Just the Global Elites, Big Governments, Power hungry folks and the peasants who have to pay for all the above with their blood.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Here's an idea for State, how about you return to pumping so much oil the price drops enough to crash the Russian economy? Not a single shot fired and someone else's family doesn't pay for your war. Instead you've created Russo-Sino Alliance, provided more than enough petro largesse to fund Russian war efforts and created more instability in Europe than there has been since WWII.

Never going to happen.
What would our "friends" over in Saudi Arabia think?
What would our "friends" in England think if we didn't continue the system we setup with them?

Russia can live with a lot lower oil prices than we can produce here for, and the middle east would implode before Russia would be seriously harmed.

 

[W54/XM-388]

I have seniors in my community, good people who have spent their entire lives building our country, who can't afford groceries. Families struggling to make ends meet and provide a better future for their children. Out of control taxes that steal from productive people, and hand it out to layabouts or people who aren't even citizens. Enough, not a single dime more for Ukraine. It's time to pick our priorities and let the Euro's take out their rubbish. IMVHO.

How many of those Seniors voted Democrat all their lives?
How many of those Seniors agreed with all kinds of progressive policies and loved big government.
How many of those Seniors were happy to let debt and taxes balloon out of control for their own benefit?
How many of those Seniors were all wanting to go soft on "poor immigrants"
How many of those Seniors were all in on the propaganda and agreeing to vastly expensive foreign wars to keep the Rich Richer?

Some are true victims.

For most, it's a matter of reaping what you sow.

 

[Zoomie]

So what you are saying is you are mad that Putin is doing exactly what the USA government has spent decades doing to others.
And you are also mad that Putin dares to try to undermine the USA, just as the USA has been trying to undermine Russia for decades.
But hey at least he knows his name and what he is, unlike our fool for a president that doesn't even know if he's a president or vice president or senator.

There aren't any good folks in this mess.
Just the Global Elites, Big Governments, Power hungry folks and the peasants who have to pay for all the above with their blood.

Reading is fundamental. Tell me, where in this century did the US engage in stuffing large numbers of Americans into a foreign country, then making a territorial claim and taking that area by armed force?

We are not talking about the typical flow of defensive moves between adversarial nations in order to maintain the status quo. This demonstrably goes beyond that.

 

[SilentStalkr]

Unfortunately the retards in this administration will never return to the level of petroleum extraction and production seen in the past. They are stuck on the stupid of the green narrative.

I also suspect that they actually enjoy seeing what they’ve inflicted on the seniors that you mentioned in your last paragraph. Remember, leftists are twisted evil degenerates.

Meanwhile 6 of the 9 large oil producing countries all signed on with BRICs now. If we don’t get these idiots out of office we are going to start having real trouble.

 

[232593]

Meanwhile 6 of the 9 large oil producing countries all signed on with BRICs now. If we don’t get these idiots out of office we are going to start having real trouble.

I think we are already in real trouble and the effects of THEIR actions are just beginning to really manifest.

Remember, ALL of this misery is because of the left.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Reading is fundamental. Tell me, where in this century did the US engage in stuffing large numbers of Americans into a foreign country, then making a territorial claim and taking that area by armed force?

We are not talking about the typical flow of defensive moves between adversarial nations in order to maintain the status quo. This demonstrably goes beyond that.

Somebody hasn't read their history books at all.
That's literally how the USA expanded, move folks in to places where others are, wait for trouble, use that as an excuse to send in the army an annex it and repeat.
Russia is doing to the Ukraine what the USA did to Mexico.

Do you think you have to use only your own people to play the stuffing and destabilizing game?
You think it has to be just people you move in and that you can't just do it with corporations move them in, then invade to "protect American assets"?

Have you ever looked at the entire history of the USA and their dealings with central and south America and why the term "banana republic" was coined?

Oh and little island countries, or small countries, well there is some USA nationals there and we say they feel threatened so... send in the army and regime change invasion, leave once we have a new puppet installed.

The British were doing the population stuffing and "assets" stuffing things long ago all around the world, the USA learned a thing or two from them.

The entire history of Europe is kind of this. Folks think modern countries are always as they have been, but some 100 to 200 years ago many countries you think about in Europe weren't as they are, neither was the middle east.

What about when the Polish claimed much of the "Ukraine" as part of Poland for a good long time?

Perhaps you forget also the last time Haiti tried to get rid of a corrupt government and have some folks take over that cared about the locals... oh we invaded on the double... can't have a non puppet running the show.

If you take a break from the comfortable Jingoism and go look at things from the other side and see the world for what it really is, you come to understand we are not on the side of the angels and neither is anyone else. It's a race to the bottom of who is the least worst of the rotters.

This isn't new, you can go all the way back thousands of years and it's the same story just different ways of killing each other.

 

[theLBC]

 

[theLBC]

Reading is fundamental. Tell me, where in this century did the US engage in stuffing large numbers of Americans into a foreign country, then making a territorial claim and taking that area by armed force?

We are not talking about the typical flow of defensive moves between adversarial nations in order to maintain the status quo. This demonstrably goes beyond that.

you do know that obama and the cia literally armed known terrorists to overthrow the democratically elected government in syria, right?
how much of that country has been destroyed, and how many killed or displaced?

 

[higginsworksforme]

Baste.

 

[Darayavaus]

The only Americans who see the Russians as enemies are the globalists and the neocons. fuck both of those groups. they see old school conservatives as enemies too.

 

[GreenGO Juan]

Here's an idea for State, how about you return to pumping so much oil the price drops enough to crash the Russian economy? Not a single shot fired and someone else's family doesn't pay for your war. Instead you've created Russo-Sino Alliance, provided more than enough petro largesse to fund Russian war efforts and created more instability in Europe than there has been since WWII.

It won't work. Globally extraction in the US is more expensive when compared with other countries. Doing what you suggest would drive prices below profits and bankrupt US companies and foreign companies operating in the US before Russia Saudi or a number of other faltered.

We are basiclly par for our most out put every, minus a Minute ammout int 2019 and 2020. If we maintain current average output 2023 will be the most oil the US has ever produced in a single year.

All that would do is Kill US production and Jobs when cost over runs profits.

 

[GreenGO Juan]

You know, Trumps administration was the first to provide lethal aid. Remember the call they Impeached him for, trying to get Z man to trade dirt on Biden for weapons. He isn't all clean hands on this either.

 

[theLBC]

You know, Trumps administration was the first to provide lethal aid. Remember the call they Impeached him for, trying to get Z man to trade dirt on Biden for weapons. He isn't all clean hands on this either.

why do you think they wanted clinton, and why they tried to impeach him for withholding "aid"?

 

[GreenGO Juan]

why do you think they wanted clinton,

??

and why they tried to impeach him for withholding "aid"?

What ever the reasons, it doesn't take away from Trump Providing lethal aid to Ukraine. Something the Dems refused and was pushed by a Republican House.

Trump to seek $250M in new lethal aid to Ukraine

The U.S. president will seek more aid to Ukraine â a topic at the center of impeachment proceedings against him.

www.defensenews.com

From another article-

The Trump administration first approved the sale of Javelins to Ukraine in December 2017 -- a step that former President Barack Obama never took and that Trump allies have pointed to as a sign of Trump's toughness on Russia. Ukraine has been fighting Russian-armed and led separatists in its eastern provinces since 2014, shortly after Russia illegally occupied and annexed Crimea, in a war that has claimed approximately 13,000 lives and displaced 1.5 million people, according to the Ukrainian government.

That first sale, which was completed in March 2018, included 210 Javelin missiles and 37 launch units and was intended to "help Ukraine build its long-term defense capacity to defend its sovereignty and territorial integrity in order to meet its national defense requirements," according to the Defense Security Cooperation Agency.


So yeah Trump was in the mix too. Lets not kid our selves.

 

[clcustom1911]

Reading is fundamental. Tell me, where in this century did the US engage in stuffing large numbers of Americans into a foreign country, then making a territorial claim and taking that area by armed force?

We are not talking about the typical flow of defensive moves between adversarial nations in order to maintain the status quo. This demonstrably goes beyond that.

You're a fucking clown.

The top 4 most obvious: Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria (by proxy), Libya (by proxy).


What do you think the role of US Army Special Force's has been since their inception?

Go into a non-friendly nation then train, equip, assist, and advise groups to overthrow their own government.


During the Obama administration, who trained, equipped, advised, and assisted the "Syrian Rebels?"

Who did those Syrian Rebels turn out to be? Al Queda. Who did most of the personnel we trained and equipped end up doing? Becoming ISIS.

Notice ISIS kept growing and growing under Obama (because ISIS was a "JV Team" according to Obama) and was basically exterminated under the Trump Administration?

I have team mates who did the training for those Syrian Rebels and who also had to obliterate those same "friendly rebels" a couple years later.

Grow up.

Not all wars are magically won by the good guys because High School History Book says so.

 

[theLBC]

??


What ever the reasons, it doesn't take away from Trump Providing lethal aid to Ukraine. Something the Dems refused and was pushed by a Republican House.

Trump to seek $250M in new lethal aid to Ukraine

The U.S. president will seek more aid to Ukraine â a topic at the center of impeachment proceedings against him.

www.defensenews.com

From another article-

The Trump administration first approved the sale of Javelins to Ukraine in December 2017 -- a step that former President Barack Obama never took and that Trump allies have pointed to as a sign of Trump's toughness on Russia. Ukraine has been fighting Russian-armed and led separatists in its eastern provinces since 2014, shortly after Russia illegally occupied and annexed Crimea, in a war that has claimed approximately 13,000 lives and displaced 1.5 million people, according to the Ukrainian government.

That first sale, which was completed in March 2018, included 210 Javelin missiles and 37 launch units and was intended to "help Ukraine build its long-term defense capacity to defend its sovereignty and territorial integrity in order to meet its national defense requirements," according to the Defense Security Cooperation Agency.


So yeah Trump was in the mix too. Lets not kid our selves.

yeah, like trump had control of what the cia, fbi, doj and dod were doing, right? fuck off.

 

[GreenGO Juan]

yeah, like trump had control of what the cia, fbi, doj and dod were doing, right? fuck off.

Well.. It was a perfect phone call.

 

[Redmanss]

Putin isn't our friend. He's not a good guy and he's spent a lot of time trying to undermine our country. He believes expanding Russian territory is good for his popularity at any cost, so he keeps rolling across countries. He's using the guise of protecting Russian "citizens" as his invasion pretext. But what he's actually doing is repeating a process Russia has used across history to expand (including across Ukraine, Crimea and the Donbas). He's purposely mass migrating Russian speaking people into these areas and then claiming Russian dominion. It's despicable, irresponsible 15th century thinking from a capricious, nuclear armed idiot man child. But he needs bread and circuses because they have a very fragile, petro dependent, and some might say, declining country.

NATO, for its part, knew Ukraine would be a red line. It's like moving Russian forces into Mexico (South American and Caribbean intervention by Russia and China subject for another thread). Ukraine was a buffer, and the status quo in Scandinavia also supported that line (how'd that work out btw, Russia?). Still, NATO while not admitting Ukraine pushed that line and provided a pretext for war. They also did zero about Crimea. So It's the Euro's mess and the US by extension, but they did it anyway. Stupid.

Ukraine, likewise, is a completely corrupt country who pretends to be a democracy. They're nothing of the sort. They've had a tenuous relationship with Russia throughout their history, but you'll also find a fair amount of their citizens have relatives and friends across their borders. They knew the boundaries. They pushed them. Reap what you sow.

We've spent trillions over the past 20 years in places like Iraq and Afghanistan and more importantly lost over 7,000 good men. Men we could use right now. I wouldn't trade 500 Uke's for one of our fallen. Not a single one, and I'm not about to watch more good men die for someone's folly, shallow thinking, insidious motives or mouth breathing stupidity. There were better battle plans than arming up a country to start a war of attrition with the ultimate goal I suppose of wearing them down to "negotiate". It ain't happening.

Here's an idea for State, how about you return to pumping so much oil the price drops enough to crash the Russian economy? Not a single shot fired and someone else's family doesn't pay for your war. Instead you've created Russo-Sino Alliance, provided more than enough petro largesse to fund Russian war efforts and created more instability in Europe than there has been since WWII.

I have seniors in my community, good people who have spent their entire lives building our country, who can't afford groceries. Families struggling to make ends meet and provide a better future for their children. Out of control taxes that steal from productive people, and hand it out to layabouts or people who aren't even citizens. Enough, not a single dime more for Ukraine. It's time to pick our priorities and let the Euro's take out their rubbish. IMVHO.

Just what we need, another Ukraine necro-thread dredged up by someone who foolishly believes all the bullshit they post will change someone's thoughts in the Bear Pit.

It won't.

 

[Sako man]

Putin isn't our friend. He's not a good guy and he's spent a lot of time trying to undermine our country. He believes expanding Russian territory is good for his popularity at any cost, so he keeps rolling across countries. He's using the guise of protecting Russian "citizens" as his invasion pretext. But what he's actually doing is repeating a process Russia has used across history to expand (including across Ukraine, Crimea and the Donbas). He's purposely mass migrating Russian speaking people into these areas and then claiming Russian dominion. It's despicable, irresponsible 15th century thinking from a capricious, nuclear armed idiot man child. But he needs bread and circuses because they have a very fragile, petro dependent, and some might say, declining country.

NATO, for its part, knew Ukraine would be a red line. It's like moving Russian forces into Mexico (South American and Caribbean intervention by Russia and China subject for another thread). Ukraine was a buffer, and the status quo in Scandinavia also supported that line (how'd that work out btw, Russia?). Still, NATO while not admitting Ukraine pushed that line and provided a pretext for war. They also did zero about Crimea. So It's the Euro's mess and the US by extension, but they did it anyway. Stupid.

Ukraine, likewise, is a completely corrupt country who pretends to be a democracy. They're nothing of the sort. They've had a tenuous relationship with Russia throughout their history, but you'll also find a fair amount of their citizens have relatives and friends across their borders. They knew the boundaries. They pushed them. Reap what you sow.

We've spent trillions over the past 20 years in places like Iraq and Afghanistan and more importantly lost over 7,000 good men. Men we could use right now. I wouldn't trade 500 Uke's for one of our fallen. Not a single one, and I'm not about to watch more good men die for someone's folly, shallow thinking, insidious motives or mouth breathing stupidity. There were better battle plans than arming up a country to start a war of attrition with the ultimate goal I suppose of wearing them down to "negotiate". It ain't happening.

Here's an idea for State, how about you return to pumping so much oil the price drops enough to crash the Russian economy? Not a single shot fired and someone else's family doesn't pay for your war. Instead you've created Russo-Sino Alliance, provided more than enough petro largesse to fund Russian war efforts and created more instability in Europe than there has been since WWII.

I have seniors in my community, good people who have spent their entire lives building our country, who can't afford groceries. Families struggling to make ends meet and provide a better future for their children. Out of control taxes that steal from productive people, and hand it out to layabouts or people who aren't even citizens. Enough, not a single dime more for Ukraine. It's time to pick our priorities and let the Euro's take out their rubbish. IMVHO.

No to the first part, and yes to the second.

The west does not understand Putin, for sure he's not a "good" guy, but he's far from a man baby. He's doing what's best for Russia and himself within the context of his civic, economic, and war powers.

The second part ...yeah, we should make energy independence our priority, and we had that in the last presidency. Oh and yeah we should be withholding financial aid to other countries that do not promote our values or interests, we had that in our previous presidency.

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Putin ain't the hero we need. He's the hero we deserve.

 

[232593]

You know, Trumps administration was the first to provide lethal aid. Remember the call they Impeached him for, trying to get Z man to trade dirt on Biden for weapons. He isn't all clean hands on this either.

Unsure either way about the weapons but I have no problem whatsoever with him trying to get dirt on Brandon or any other leftist piece of shit. It’s just unfortunate that he got caught.

 

[GreenGO Juan]

Unsure either way about the weapons but I have no problem whatsoever with him trying to get dirt on Brandon or any other leftist piece of shit. It’s just unfortunate that he got caught.

Politics is a dirty game.

How he got burned for that and the fire victor shokin bribe is over looked, plus all the other corruption is a massive… pfft. Really proves how deep it runs.

 

[762libertarian]

No to the first part, and yes to the second.

The west does not understand Putin, for sure he's not a "good" guy, but he's far from a man baby. He's doing what's best for Russia and himself within the context of his civic, economic, and war powers.

The second part ...yeah, we should make energy independence our priority, and we had that in the last presidency. Oh and yeah we should be withholding financial aid to other countries that do not promote our values or interests, we had that in our previous presidency.

No, he's ruining the future of Russia. If he'd spent his time modernizing and reforming then Russia could have been on the way up, like Poland. Instead it's a parody of itself wasting its precious resources and people.

 

[Darayavaus]

No, he's ruining the future of Russia. If he'd spent his time modernizing and reforming then Russia could have been on the way up, like Poland. Instead it's a parody of itself wasting its precious resources and people.

thanks for repeating the MSM. We don't hear enough bullshit propaganda on the news, so it always helps when someone regurgitates it. Unless you spent time over there between the late 80's up until the last 5 or 10 years ago, you have no clue about what is good for Russia.

But that's the point, and some here are smart enough to see it. People in this country are being told to want what's bad for them and their future, with the ultimate goal of the complete destruction of our Republic, our sovereignty, and the American Dream. so little surprise that we should be told that bad is good for other sovereign nations too.

 

[Sako man]

No, he's ruining the future of Russia. If he'd spent his time modernizing and reforming then Russia could have been on the way up, like Poland. Instead it's a parody of itself wasting its precious resources and people.

He's ruining the future of Russia by seemingly halting NATO'S eastward expansion? Poland accepted NATO and the EU with open arms, and as a smaller weaker country chose to assimilate. Russia is going to stay Russia, culturally, militaralilary, and economically. This autonomy is the problem as Klause Schwab and Schroder have both said. So It's assymilate or be destroyed. I just don't see how not wanting to bend the knee is a bad thing for Russia. "Modernizing? The big tell that you don't have any historical understanding of Russia is that under Putin tremendous economic gains have been made through reindustrialization of the Russian war machine, and the export of natural energy resources. Putin actually listened to his economic advisors. Once in power Putin purged the economy of a lot of corporate-kratts who were mainly benefiting themselves and installed state owned and operated energy companies. If you ever read any Goldman of the Wilson Center, or Dresen at the Kenan institute you would understand how Putin turned Russia into a major Petrostate, and one that now threatens western liberal hegemony and their clamp down on that "dirty" petro energy. So to most Russians Putin has done, and is doing what is currently best for Russia, and that's fighting the proxy war the USA has levied against them.


I am not saying Putin is a hero, but i'm educated and independent enough to be pragmatic, and that is a realization that not all world leaders have to be going along with western edict in order for them to be deemed good or successful.


If I were you I would be far more concerned with how our own government has failed to rejuvenate American infrastructure and economy VS. harping on unfactual and uneducated mistruths about Putin and Russia.