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How Do You Test a New Lot of Ammunition?
- Thread starter 4sfed
- Start date
I test at 100 yards.
Ballistic chronograph out front.
No groups, 1 shot 1 dot target.
Don't care about SD, the number I watch is ES.
Sub moa at 100 yards requires decent rimfire ammo.
That's ammo with an ES of less than 40 fps.
100 shots fired, compare poi to MV shot by shot.
Ballistic chronograph out front.
No groups, 1 shot 1 dot target.
Don't care about SD, the number I watch is ES.
Sub moa at 100 yards requires decent rimfire ammo.
That's ammo with an ES of less than 40 fps.
100 shots fired, compare poi to MV shot by shot.
Hi Guys,
We have a well respected rimfire specialist dealer around and he offers ammo testing at his indoor 50m range.
They equip top tier rimfire shooters (classic disciplines) in Germany.
I recently tested 10 different LOTs of the same brand and type of ammo, RWS Rifle Match. The groups were shockingly different. Like 8mm to 40mm at 50m with the rifle fixed in a vice. I repeated the test for the best 2 LOTs with higher round count and finally chose the better of the two.
The ammo is known to be pretty consistent, though there are probably better but also more expensive typs. I was not yet able to crono for ES though. I am not a competitive shooter but just training with the rifle (25-100m and positional shooting), but still I wanted some decent precision and went through the testig. Absolutely worth it!
Buying a few thousand rounds of that LOT makes sense then. Asking how much of the LOT is available before the test is also important
We have a well respected rimfire specialist dealer around and he offers ammo testing at his indoor 50m range.
They equip top tier rimfire shooters (classic disciplines) in Germany.
I recently tested 10 different LOTs of the same brand and type of ammo, RWS Rifle Match. The groups were shockingly different. Like 8mm to 40mm at 50m with the rifle fixed in a vice. I repeated the test for the best 2 LOTs with higher round count and finally chose the better of the two.
The ammo is known to be pretty consistent, though there are probably better but also more expensive typs. I was not yet able to crono for ES though. I am not a competitive shooter but just training with the rifle (25-100m and positional shooting), but still I wanted some decent precision and went through the testig. Absolutely worth it!
Buying a few thousand rounds of that LOT makes sense then. Asking how much of the LOT is available before the test is also important
Shortly after I got my rifle I tried a box of R50 (bipod and rear bag). It didn't group as well as some others even though the velocity was consistent. 'Could have been me or the lot. Were your patterns vertical, horizontal or just random?
I generally associate a vertical string with inconsistent velocity (easily verified with a chronograph like justin) and a horizontal string with the shooter. The random pattern is more more difficult to diagnose.
I've been shooting multiple 5 shot groups at 50 yards while checking velocity with a chronograph. I'm looking for a small vertical dispersion, believing the horizontal is more affected by wind and the shooter.
Justin, are you looking for an ES less than 40 fps in a 100 shot sample?
ES of less than 40 fps for 100 shots is what I want.
40 fps ES is typical of true match quality rimfire ammunition from the big 3, Eley, RWS, Lapua.
I'm looking for sub-moa results at 100 yards and in order to achieve that ES has to be less the 40 fps.
10 fps difference between shots with 22lr at 100 yards creates about 1/4 inch vertical spread.
40 fps ES is typical of true match quality rimfire ammunition from the big 3, Eley, RWS, Lapua.
I'm looking for sub-moa results at 100 yards and in order to achieve that ES has to be less the 40 fps.
10 fps difference between shots with 22lr at 100 yards creates about 1/4 inch vertical spread.
The gun was fixed in a vice, so i would take the shooter out of the equation, indoor range eliminated wind. The groups were pretty round.
The dealer told me they know that KKs are so sensitive obviously that the LOT to LOT difference can change the world.
The competition shooters they work with often buy 5.000-10.000 shots of the best tested LOT if they find a really good one.
RWS Rifle Match is not what I would consider to be worthwhile competition ammunition.
It's 2 steps down on the statistical sampling done to grade rimfire ammo as it's produced.
Yeah, it does have the word "match" on the label, but that's a sales gimmick, not a true description of the contents.
None of the competition grade rimfire ammo by the big three uses the word "match"...Tenex, Midas+, RWS R50.
"Match" is how they justify the price and boost sales.
It's 2 steps down on the statistical sampling done to grade rimfire ammo as it's produced.
Yeah, it does have the word "match" on the label, but that's a sales gimmick, not a true description of the contents.
None of the competition grade rimfire ammo by the big three uses the word "match"...Tenex, Midas+, RWS R50.
"Match" is how they justify the price and boost sales.
Um. This is the trouble with using absolutes like "none": https://eley.co.uk/eley-match/
If Eley black box is not up to your standards for competition, I am impressed. The price is indeed boosted, but then again, it shoots well enough to beat the shit out of anyone and anything until you reach an Olympic level of Smallbore shooting, or maybe starting at the 300 yardline.
As far as testing: I think all of these things are interesting. Chronographs, benches, machine rests. I may even do some of that some day.
But for now, I kinda saunter out to the 200 yard-line, lie down, and shoot the rifle. If it holds together at 200, and the groups are round, then the ammo is considered proven-good. By "together" at 200, I mean 3" or less untuned, and 2" is pretty damn good ammo. We're in the realm of R50 and R100, Eley Match, and Tenex.
"Match" ammo like SK Rifle Match, Eley Club/Target, Federal GM...will group about 2" wide by 8" tall, for comparison.
I order on line, and apparently my shipping address is used to empty the warehouse
of old, improperly stored or dropped rimfire ammunition. I was lot testing Eley black box...
Different labeled mv's to determine which fit the rifles harmonics.
Problem was poor consistency. 3 or 4 shots in the same hole, then a hot round confirmed by the chronograph.
I was not impressed by the quality of the ammunition sent to me for testing. No how, no way.
Dialed off vertical to maintain point of aim for testing,
and this was typical of all boxes delivered.
As has been commented ad infinitum...lot testing is the only way to determine ammo quality
and even then the very best ammunition sold can have bad batches "slip" past quality control and end up in consumer's hands.
In my case it seems to be all the time. I think it's a conspiracy.
Either that or the truly magic ammo ends up with the sponsored competitors, for bragging rights/advertising
while the remaining supposedly "match" ammo gets sold retail to less knowledgeable folks.
What the heck, it's made on the same machines by the same techs from the same components.
So what if it throws hot rounds every 4 or 5 shots....it's not like it's going to be used by a serious competitor.
It's already boxed and labeled, we can sell it and make a good profit and the average shooter will never know the difference.
What? Me? Cynical?
of old, improperly stored or dropped rimfire ammunition. I was lot testing Eley black box...
Different labeled mv's to determine which fit the rifles harmonics.
Problem was poor consistency. 3 or 4 shots in the same hole, then a hot round confirmed by the chronograph.
I was not impressed by the quality of the ammunition sent to me for testing. No how, no way.
Dialed off vertical to maintain point of aim for testing,
and this was typical of all boxes delivered.
As has been commented ad infinitum...lot testing is the only way to determine ammo quality
and even then the very best ammunition sold can have bad batches "slip" past quality control and end up in consumer's hands.
In my case it seems to be all the time. I think it's a conspiracy.
Either that or the truly magic ammo ends up with the sponsored competitors, for bragging rights/advertising
while the remaining supposedly "match" ammo gets sold retail to less knowledgeable folks.
What the heck, it's made on the same machines by the same techs from the same components.
So what if it throws hot rounds every 4 or 5 shots....it's not like it's going to be used by a serious competitor.
It's already boxed and labeled, we can sell it and make a good profit and the average shooter will never know the difference.
What? Me? Cynical?
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My best groups were in the TWOs with it, best individual I can recall was 0.190 MOA. 200 yard performance is right at 2", and round groups...ruck prone with no tuner.
Here's a recent one at 200, from just basically a random lot of 1068 fps:
So you are saying that Eley black is NOT competition or "match" grade ammunition? Interesting. In that, I'd bet you would differ from about 99% of this forum. There are certainly some .22 rifles and ammo somewhere that can do 1" at 200 yards without a tuner, but they are a lot more rare than the internet would have us believe.
Are you a 50/50 BR guy? You are, aren't you?! Or is it Smallbore? (Have you told your parents yet?)
-Nate
Here's a recent one at 200, from just basically a random lot of 1068 fps:
So you are saying that Eley black is NOT competition or "match" grade ammunition? Interesting. In that, I'd bet you would differ from about 99% of this forum. There are certainly some .22 rifles and ammo somewhere that can do 1" at 200 yards without a tuner, but they are a lot more rare than the internet would have us believe.
Are you a 50/50 BR guy? You are, aren't you?! Or is it Smallbore? (Have you told your parents yet?)
-Nate
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I have been testing several brands and different lots of match ammo. I've shot multiple lots of Tenex-Match-Rem Match-Edge-Club from Eley, Midas + and Center X from Lapua, and Fed GMM and GMUM. My rifle seems to like GMM and the Lapua rounds best. I haven't found a single lot from Eley I can get consistent groups with that are similar to the Lapua. Don't get me wrong, my groups are still good (for me) with the Eley. Just not as good as Lapua and Federal have been. The Eley's I've tested are somewhere in the middle between CCI Green Tag and GMM but almost all of them are more expensive than either of those. It's strange but the Edge and the Match both outshot the Tenex by quite a bit. I assume some of that is me. I think I kind of always assumed that Eley Match was Tenex that didn't quite make the cut. But my buddy shoots almost exclusively Eley, and does it quite well.
Me? A serious shooter? No way Jose!
Just an amateur as the forum handle indicates, with way too much spare time and a need to self educate.
My hobby is testing the supposed accuracy tweaks as posted in shooting forums.
Everything from trigger work, stock bedding pillaring, barrels and rimfire ammunition claims of "all day long."
My favorite internet myth is "find the brand of ammunition y'er rifle likes!"
I learned real quick that one is only applicable for a short span of time.
About what it takes to go through the brick that shoots so superbly.
After it's gone, the next brick doesn't provide the same results.
Why is that? The rifle suddenly changed it's mind?
Or did ammo quality change as it came off the machines?
200 yard rimfire with a barrel block Lilja is my current fascination.
Action is free floated, barrel is epoxy bedded into a heavy laminated stock.
At 200 yards ammunition quality is everything.
Time of flight and gravity exacerbate vertical spread due to mv differences.
With 22lr match ammo, 1 fps difference in mv produces 1/10th inch of vertical spread.
Just an amateur as the forum handle indicates, with way too much spare time and a need to self educate.
My hobby is testing the supposed accuracy tweaks as posted in shooting forums.
Everything from trigger work, stock bedding pillaring, barrels and rimfire ammunition claims of "all day long."
My favorite internet myth is "find the brand of ammunition y'er rifle likes!"
I learned real quick that one is only applicable for a short span of time.
About what it takes to go through the brick that shoots so superbly.
After it's gone, the next brick doesn't provide the same results.
Why is that? The rifle suddenly changed it's mind?
Or did ammo quality change as it came off the machines?
200 yard rimfire with a barrel block Lilja is my current fascination.
Action is free floated, barrel is epoxy bedded into a heavy laminated stock.
At 200 yards ammunition quality is everything.
Time of flight and gravity exacerbate vertical spread due to mv differences.
With 22lr match ammo, 1 fps difference in mv produces 1/10th inch of vertical spread.
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What is your recommendation on ammo for a 455 CZ Tacticool with stock barrel. Would it be worth it to get a 18" LilJa barrel for it or save up for one of the those Vudoo's?
455 tacticool...pillar and bed the receiver
Shoot at least 2 bricks of ammo to polish the rifling.
Try an epoxy barrel support shim 3 inches forward of the receiver.
Buy the best ammunition you can afford.
If you are mechanically inclined a Rifle Basix trigger.
Shoot the rifle at 100 yards, a lot.
Use a ballistic chronograph every trip to the range.
Track target results vs MV for every box of ammo shot.
Buy the ammunition that produces the best results and smallest ES.
Support the rifle just forward of the mag well.
That will provide the best results.
It minimizes forestock flex/recoil bounce.
Lot test to find the best ammunition you can afford.
If that doesn't satisfy you, sell the 455, buy the vudoo.
Shoot at least 2 bricks of ammo to polish the rifling.
Try an epoxy barrel support shim 3 inches forward of the receiver.
Buy the best ammunition you can afford.
If you are mechanically inclined a Rifle Basix trigger.
Shoot the rifle at 100 yards, a lot.
Use a ballistic chronograph every trip to the range.
Track target results vs MV for every box of ammo shot.
Buy the ammunition that produces the best results and smallest ES.
Support the rifle just forward of the mag well.
That will provide the best results.
It minimizes forestock flex/recoil bounce.
Lot test to find the best ammunition you can afford.
If that doesn't satisfy you, sell the 455, buy the vudoo.
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How to make an epoxy barrel support shim...
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=891218
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=891218
I am not a BR shooter but do go out and play with some nationally ranked BR shooters from time to time who live at my local club range. They all shoot Eley Black except for one who mostly shoots Lapua CX. Just an observation. The guys with the $4k hand bilt rifles with match spec chambers in hand-lapped bbls all choose Eley. I often use Eley black for local matches also. It always seems to out perform Tennex for me but this is counter intuitive. Fresh bricks that have not been stored in hot warehouses seem to shoot better and with fewer flyiers also. When I am working up a new rifle, I like to shoot 25 rds consisting of 5-shot groups after I have fired 5-10 rounds to foul the bbl. I will usually test, Lapua CX, Midas-+, SK std+/rifle match, Wolf Match Tgt and MX. Then I will test RWS R50, R100 and Norma Match. Finally, Test various lots of Eley Blk and Tennex. If the rifle is a serious piece, like an Anschutz, Winchester M52, Vostok CM-2, Match grade Remington, etc, I will usually not venture outside of the list above and generally if I am lazy, I will only test the Lapua CX and Midas-+ and the Eley Black as usually with those three, I will find a winner. Plus if a rifle will shoot Lapua well, then it will also shoot SK and Wolf well but just not quite as well. It takes a very serious rifle for me to tell the difference between Center-X and Midas-+ but the M+ does shoot slightly better on a windless day. If it is windy, the difference is lost in the noise. I also seem to find that Eley which almost never groups the best in any of my rifles, does shoot really well in windy conditions like the hell hole we have for a match range with its diabolical winds. I think this is because of the different Eley bullet shape. My testing is usually in dead calm conditions but my match shooting is in all different kinds of conditions. What I see in Eley is the groups are usually round clusters where most others including Lapua are in vertical clusters where 3-4 shots are in a tight hole and one strays high or low. Where Lapua seems to excel is that I less lot to lot variance. Eley varies more but they do give you the test MV as an aid to choosing lots your rifle might like. Once I have found a brand the rifle likes, I will test various lots until I find a winner. Our ammo supplier publishes a list of available lots monthly. He will ship or deliver one or more boxes for lot testing. Once you find the magic lot, you can buy as much as your budget will allow. You can clean or not between brands. No need to do so when testing between lots in my opinion. In my opinion, old or poorly stored ammo is never going to group as well as fresh, properly stored ammo. I have seen lots that grouped great last year which sat in my hot, hot, hot garage thru only one summer, fail to repeat their performance after only one year of Hot/Cold storage. Anybody else notice this? I attached a couple of pics of one of my better rifles and a series of 5sh groups it shot at 50y with Wolf MX. Good not great ammo. These are not its best work but representative of what what a good factory rifle can do with decent ammo which it likes when shot from a solid rest in low wind conditions.
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I Just shoot lots of it cause its fun ha ha
shot so many diffrent brands , likes Eley match the most but to expensive to hunt with
Pretty much my CZ455 tacticool with Federal Hunter match (pretty cheap here in AUS)
its my hunting rounds as it hits rabbits hard enough
and will do this all day at 100
its got a 1.6inch spread vertical but i was facing a wind coming from 2.3 oclock ,, but all day every day that is Rabbit Minute of angle at 100
shot so many diffrent brands , likes Eley match the most but to expensive to hunt with
Pretty much my CZ455 tacticool with Federal Hunter match (pretty cheap here in AUS)
its my hunting rounds as it hits rabbits hard enough
and will do this all day at 100
its got a 1.6inch spread vertical but i was facing a wind coming from 2.3 oclock ,, but all day every day that is Rabbit Minute of angle at 100
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