Iron sights!! They never let you down. No scope shadow, no glare, no fog! Its all you and the rifle.
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How hard is it really to be accurate at 300-400 yards with an ar 15
- Thread starter M4sniperz
- Start date
Scopes...I use a Bushnell 3-12x44 LRHS, a little over $1000. The SWFA 3-15 is a good scope, about $700, both FFP. Fixed SWFA 10x wouldn't be a bad choice, $300.
In this pic the CB shot is high left and top two on right for three at 285Y, next three middle shots 400Y, next bottom four 589Y. This was the first test at distance, I had just finished load development with Berger 70 grain VLD at 2600 fps out of a 15" AR. Very windy conditions, full value from 12-18 mph IIRC, thus the horizontal stringing. I had to aim 4-5 feet left to hit the 589Y. The plate is a foot wide. Off the bipod and rear bag in calmish conditions at 400Y I think I could hit a 6" plate most of the time.
In this pic the CB shot is high left and top two on right for three at 285Y, next three middle shots 400Y, next bottom four 589Y. This was the first test at distance, I had just finished load development with Berger 70 grain VLD at 2600 fps out of a 15" AR. Very windy conditions, full value from 12-18 mph IIRC, thus the horizontal stringing. I had to aim 4-5 feet left to hit the 589Y. The plate is a foot wide. Off the bipod and rear bag in calmish conditions at 400Y I think I could hit a 6" plate most of the time.
The peep sight is a marvelous invention. Using the eye's natural ability to both balance and center things, the peep makes it possible to consistently align sights for a perfect understanding of where the barrel is pointed. In addition, the aperture provides depth of field, making it possible to have focus on the front sight as well as a defined target. This helps the shooter get a consistent sight picture from shot to shot.
Within distances where a relationship between the front sight and target can be recognized, results with the peep sight can be indistinguishable from results with an optic. I prefer them over shooting with a scope at LR for a multitude of reasons.
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The USAMU just won the NRA match rifle championship (team event) at Perry yesterday... with service rifles. That should answer any and all questions about how accurate a standard AR can be at 200-600 yards. Accuracy is in the shooter, not the gun.
Team Scores
Team Scores
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The USAMU builds some pretty accurate AR's. Interestingly, with a little knowledge and a little money you and I could build similarly accurate AR's. Thing is, even with a competitive AR, it would require some real talent to shoot like those black hat guys.
If you're just talking about getting consistent hits on man-sized targets, just about any AR with any ammo, including surplus ball, will do the job easily. Optics don't really matter... irons, red dot, glass... all will get it done with different trade-offs functionality-wise. We just had a 5k/10k Run 'n Gun competition last week that had a stage requiring 3 hits on a IPSC-sized torso at 500 yards, and people cleared it with all types of setups, from SBRs to long range precision rigs and everything in between. I cleared it easily using my A4 with 55 grain M193 using the irons through the tube of my Aimpoint. The guy with the best time on that stage actually did it with a suppressed 10.3" barreled AR with an Aimpoint! He was quicker with his hits than the dude with the 6.5 CM precision rig, simply because he had solid marksmanship fundamentals, and knew his trajectory cold.
I would encourage you to attend an Appleseed marksmanship clinic. Project Appleseed is an organization that holds weekend classes that teach all the skills necessary to control the Rifleman's Quarter Mile -- that's getting hits on a man-sized target out to 500 yards with any center fire rifle, any ammo, and any type of sights. Only $60 for the weekend, so it's some of the best value in training you'll see. They are nationwide too. Project Appleseed Home
Of course if you're talking about more precision than just hits somewhere on a torso, you are getting into the realm of match grade barrels and ammo, and need to be a lot more precise with your come-ups and wind calls.
When it comes down to it, the only way to learn to shoot at distance is to get out and shoot at distance.
Sterling Shooter, I usually try to limit my posts to maybe one a week, you know the old saying, keep your mouth shut & no one knows for sure. Wish you were my neighbor, oh baby what I could learn! It will have to be a school for me as in my town, I am the ONLY One with an NRA sticker.
Maxwell
Maxwell
In High Power you aim at every target the same way. Each target gets larger in proportion to each distance so the sight picture is always the same just the clicks change to move the point of impact to center of the target.
Well Nick, I can and will meet your challenge for the right amount of cash...
It sounds like put up or shut up time to me.
I came here to this forum to help other that had the attitude of wanting to learn...not burn others.
It was necessary to give my background in order to establish that FACT that I know what I am telling other shooters.
The key here is "Attitude".
Some have it and some don't!
Lol... So you're going to challenge others online to a shoot off as long as they put up a purse to make it worth your effort and drive 7-8 hours each way to meet you? Yeah that sounds like a person who just wants to share. And when you make a comment such as "not burn others" but then follow up your quip with a retort intended to do exactly that... yeah... It's cool though. For someone so "experienced" you'd think some common sense would interject at some point.
Dang it! There's my problem - I'm pretty sure I won't be going shooting for a whole "day" for at least another 20 years unless i can teach my kids to spot, and i doubt any of them have the patience for it.
More tips for the folks that are wanting to have a tighter group.
After you found a well built rifle you'll need to match the loaded ammo to the frequency that the gun likes best.
Have a standard day wind, temp, and level shooting bench range area to test your many loads to find the one that will provide the tightest groups.
Now your ready to work on the shooter side of the equation.
It also may help to have a known good shooter to check your zero if you are using glass optics.
I have seen scopes that would not hold a true shot group and the shooter thought it was the gun or themselves.
A set of rings may come lose as the shooter will try to chase the bullet pattern rather then check the scope rings or scope.
Here is where a coach person will help if your wanting to be free to concentrate on pulling the trigger.
Instant Bio-feedback from a coach after each shot will quickly build your accuracy in calling your shots.
Calling your shots accurately is critical if your not just plinking and are seriously trying to improve.
Establish a base line of your group size with a time and date and range conditions.
Over time you may hit a plateau and see little or no improvement, or even lose ground in accuracy... Don't worry, it's normal.
Now what I am about to tell you is contrary to all you may have been taught.
This info is only going to help the better shooters on the forum that will try and listen and not the smart asses here.
First I was asked chairman of the joint chiefs of staff to review the armies coaches manual and make suggestions to add or change training protocals.
To this day they did not make the recommended changes.
One: Breath control should not include holding your breath!
Two: The fore grip should not be help in a loose manor.
The proper way to time your trigger pull is during the ebb exhale cycle near equilibrium phase as your are very slowly releasing air from your lungs, and
The fore grip should be held strait down with about five pounds down and five pounds back pull.
Make sure your not using mussels to hold any side motion force.
A coach we notice and slight movement left or right if you did.
You MUST find a natural point of aim to avoid this problem!
A good coach will spot this and should tell you after your shot.
I tried this and it helped bring the 8" group down to 4" group out to the 800 meter range with a NM M-14.
Remember the military and police are still not teaching this to their people.
After you found a well built rifle you'll need to match the loaded ammo to the frequency that the gun likes best.
Have a standard day wind, temp, and level shooting bench range area to test your many loads to find the one that will provide the tightest groups.
Now your ready to work on the shooter side of the equation.
It also may help to have a known good shooter to check your zero if you are using glass optics.
I have seen scopes that would not hold a true shot group and the shooter thought it was the gun or themselves.
A set of rings may come lose as the shooter will try to chase the bullet pattern rather then check the scope rings or scope.
Here is where a coach person will help if your wanting to be free to concentrate on pulling the trigger.
Instant Bio-feedback from a coach after each shot will quickly build your accuracy in calling your shots.
Calling your shots accurately is critical if your not just plinking and are seriously trying to improve.
Establish a base line of your group size with a time and date and range conditions.
Over time you may hit a plateau and see little or no improvement, or even lose ground in accuracy... Don't worry, it's normal.
Now what I am about to tell you is contrary to all you may have been taught.
This info is only going to help the better shooters on the forum that will try and listen and not the smart asses here.
First I was asked chairman of the joint chiefs of staff to review the armies coaches manual and make suggestions to add or change training protocals.
To this day they did not make the recommended changes.
One: Breath control should not include holding your breath!
Two: The fore grip should not be help in a loose manor.
The proper way to time your trigger pull is during the ebb exhale cycle near equilibrium phase as your are very slowly releasing air from your lungs, and
The fore grip should be held strait down with about five pounds down and five pounds back pull.
Make sure your not using mussels to hold any side motion force.
A coach we notice and slight movement left or right if you did.
You MUST find a natural point of aim to avoid this problem!
A good coach will spot this and should tell you after your shot.
I tried this and it helped bring the 8" group down to 4" group out to the 800 meter range with a NM M-14.
Remember the military and police are still not teaching this to their people.
The Appleseed program is the very best out there!
They are even better than the military as well as the police trainers.
Thanks for sharing that insight with the forum members...
I don't speak for walt willis; but, it appears we have the same desire to help shooters become the riflemen they're aspiring to be. Although marksmanship is settled science, that's to say, we know what's important to good shooting, we all have somewhat unique perspectives on it. Listening to what it is like from perspectives not personally experienced provides a greater grasp of the big picture. It serves to enlighten and it's entertaining.
Got a question for SS about the number of people on this forum that give a rats ass about accuracy?
Having been in the sport of teaching others how to shoot better for most of my life I noticed that there were guys that wanted to know more and others that thought they knew it all.
The know it all guys never did improve as much because of their attitude was all wrong.
I believe that I am spinning my wheels trying to share what I know at this forum...
"Never try to teach a pig to dance, you'll only frustrate yourself and aggravate the pig"
"I will not be the jackass whisperer".
This is not Mister Rodger's neighborhood!
Just what the forum needs... another hypocrite.
You're seriously so enamored with yourself and that you think your some sort of Sensei to the rest of us "younger" people. You talk about how you don't "burn" anyone and then you follow it up again with comments that due exactly that which makes you a hypocrite. You're also going on an assumption that no one else here other than your new best friend Sterling are any good at shooting for accuracy or that all of us think we can't learn anything when in fact guys like you and Sterling both think you know more than everyone else and that none of us have anything valuable to add unless we revel in your alleged wisdom and follow your would be leadership. You're also new to the forum and here you are talking at others like you're some seasoned vet who we should all be thankful for passing on the basics of marksmanship in an obscure thread that simply asked can AR be accurate. There's a whole sub forum dedicated to exactly what you're talking about where you can do exactly that and the rest of us don't have to listen to you try to toot your own horn in hopes to amass groupies and get new students. Good luck with that...
With a fairly heavy recoiling rifle, or any rifle for that matter, how important is it to keep the target within the sight picture as the bullet heads down range? Im getting good hits/groups, but I have never been able to keep the target in sight. I am following through and keeping constant cheek pressure, but the recoil will kinda knock my cheek weld loose and Ill lose the target and have to reacquire. No matter how hard I press my head to the stock Ive never been able to keep the target and watch the bullet hit. I know to do my best to keep my cheek weld the whole time, but the rifle will knock my face off the stock a little bit each time.
So basically, is it absolutely imperative to keep the target in sight? And Im not talking about a AR15 here. More like non-braked 8 lb. .308.
So basically, is it absolutely imperative to keep the target in sight? And Im not talking about a AR15 here. More like non-braked 8 lb. .308.
It's not exactly imperative to keep the target in sight through the entire recoil impulse, and you certainly shouldn't try to muscle against the recoil... but you do want to have a good solid position with natural point of aim on target, so you can come back on target quickly and watch your impact to get feedback about your shot... being your own spotter, as it were. Having your cheek weld getting knocked loose from shot to shot is not good... that basically means you have to rebuild your position again for every shot, and in addition to being slow, it is bad for consistency. One thing that might help is to "turkey neck" to get your cheek weld. Get in a solid prone position, stretch your neck as far forward as it will go, and drop your cheek onto the stock in that place. Set the eye relief of your scope to match this position. In addition to being highly repeatable, it also helps absorb recoil... if there is no "slack" in your neck, your head stays put and your whole upper body absorbs the recoil as a unit. Having the stock firmly pocketed in your shoulder is critical, too.
This is a common problem... it is common to see people, especially new shooters, with the scope mounted so far to the rear that they have to scrunch their head backwards on the stock to get eye relief. You can get away with this somewhat with a .223 or less, but the recoil from anything high powered will destroy this type of position.
This is a common problem... it is common to see people, especially new shooters, with the scope mounted so far to the rear that they have to scrunch their head backwards on the stock to get eye relief. You can get away with this somewhat with a .223 or less, but the recoil from anything high powered will destroy this type of position.
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Walt,
I don't know why any here feel compelled to contribute to this forum; but, for me, it's an opportunity to share knowledge and experiences on a subject that I find to be fascinating. I also don't know how many here are interested in marksmanship; but, it appears, judging from overall interest in the threads on marksmanship compared to activity in threads where the gun is the hero, that most folks either are not interested in marksmanship or they are keeping what they know about marksmanship to themselves.
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Originally Posted by Skeld1 View Post
Don't know either of them but I will add this; I have noticed that at the top levels of most sports there are many similarities among competitors. I think this is one reason that top shooters, top athletes are where they are, they have found or been taught what works and use it. Down at the bottom levels of any sport you are going to see all kinds of bizarre techniques and things that just don't work so well but the participant either doesn't know any better or refuses for whatever reason, to listen and learn.
Don't know either of them but I will add this; I have noticed that at the top levels of most sports there are many similarities among competitors. I think this is one reason that top shooters, top athletes are where they are, they have found or been taught what works and use it. Down at the bottom levels of any sport you are going to see all kinds of bizarre techniques and things that just don't work so well but the participant either doesn't know any better or refuses for whatever reason, to listen and learn.
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Walt, what is the reasoning behind not holding your breath on the shot? I have a 3 position rife background and was taught by a pretty good instructor, and as you have stated, this does go against what I have always done. Now I will say in skeet, in sporting clay, IDPA, during more aggressive rifle fire I don't hold my breath, but when going for the best accuracy I can produce, I do take a couple of breaths, breath out and apply steady pressure to the trigger until the rifle goes off on it's own.
Thanks in advance,
Doc
PS., To you, SS, and everyone else enjoying this thread, I for one, appreciate picking up something new/learning where ever I may find it... Thanks.
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What's important is that you follow-through, that's to say, continue to aim with trigger depressed until recoil has subsided. By following through you will understand the target/sight relationship or sight picture as the bullet clears the bore; and thus, you will know where the bullet should have hit the target. This is known as calling your shot. Calling the shot and plotting both the call and the shot will allow for hasty error diagnosis for work in progress. For example, if you call the shot right-in-there but see the shot strike at three o'clock it might be a good idea to adjust sight.
The felt recoil after the bullet has left the bore will undoubtedly disturb the sight picture and NPA may need to be readjusted to get the desired sight picture for the next shot, if time allows. If the position is initially built with maximum bone/artificial support this will minimize arc of movement and provide consistency in recoil resistance from shot to shot, reducing the need to adjust NPA from shot to shot.
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Thanks henschman and SS, I will keep whittling away as always.
But another thing, should my cheek be staying at the exact same spot on the stock during recoil? I see the guys shooting braked 6mm`s and what not can do that. But I just dont see how its possible to keep my cheek glued in the exact same spot as the rifle punches back in recoil with what Im shooting.
Thanks again sirs.
But another thing, should my cheek be staying at the exact same spot on the stock during recoil? I see the guys shooting braked 6mm`s and what not can do that. But I just dont see how its possible to keep my cheek glued in the exact same spot as the rifle punches back in recoil with what Im shooting.
Thanks again sirs.
The full weight of your head should be "resting" on the stock and it should be in the same spot on the stock from shot to shot. You can maintain stock weld from shot to shot with a sling support which allows the whole body to move in integration with the rifle's recoil and return to battery; but, with other combinations of support, you may loose the stock weld. The important thing is to understand the stock weld is anchoring sight alignment, that's to say, perspective of aim. When the perspective of aim is disturbed the result is sight misalignment which induces angular error that increases with distance.
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Exactly what I meant, thank you sir. I already have a sling on my AR and was blown away by how much it improved my shooting. Wow. I resolved a while ago to have slings on all my rifles but havent done it yet. Ill make sure to.
sterling, ive always been impressed and glad to read wisdom when you put it out. Thank you for that. But lets be honest for a sec. Walt is kind of a dick and comes off like a creepy old vietnam vet drunk outside of the USO. The unit/name dripping was douche enough, but then he had to throw in the the old standby of how hes killed men.... come on.. It reminds of the guys taht start getting all pissy whenever someone equestions anything they ask, then they turn immediately defensive and the asshole comes out. If walt, answered and discussed things the ways you did, i doubt this conversation would have developed the way it did. He all but screamed "BACK IN NAM I KILLED LOTS OF GOOKS" and then expects everyone to shut up and treat him as something special.
Bingo... Which is why I rarely say anything to Sterling despite my disagreement on a few things. I also have a low thresh hold for ass kissing and elitism from someone who's been here a minute and essentially acting like they deserve the floor uncontested.
And I'm also a dick so... lol
Whenever I read anything by Sterling in my head its a Yoda voice....the force is strong between the peep sight and E target with this one.
This is 100% what ive found. If you move your head from the stock / scope view even the smallest amount during your group shots = group size goes all to hell. Consistency is the key.
Shot a partially obstructed coyote at 380 yards with a Mk12Mod1 and NF 2.5-10 last week.
At night, in the complete dark with a clip-on.
At night, in the complete dark with a clip-on.
The biggest mistake here is people crane their neck forward rather than leaving their head where it is and just pulling the stock to it/putting their face on the stock.
They'll crane it for the first group, then not crane it or crane it differently for the 2nd group and wonder why they have a 2 inch POI shift. This is even more prevalent on adjustable stock types and AR platforms as they give a quite smaller point of reference when compared to a 'fuller' comb/stock end of a bolt gun.
Well Jim,
It is kind of like when you close one eye it will affect the other eye, and same way with holding your breath.
That you resist will persist...
It is far more relaxing to not hold your breath or your non shooting eye closed.
Give it a try.
I was also a three position competitive army shooter as well as a pistol shooter.
I was able to out shoot all of the other rifle shooters using my pistol because I could hit the exact center of a rifle target every time.
If you listen to the interview I gave in May of 2012 on You Tube called: The story of Walt Willis you will understand why the information should help.
You just made a very important point about scopes vs. iron peep sights.
The M-14 NM rear sight had what is best called a ghost area located in the center of vision, but a scope will show a dark area around the outside edge that must be centered.
Canting will have an affect as well at the loner ranges.
All my competition was with Iron sights so I'm not familiar with scoped competition shooting.
Another good point and you will see the tight two groups as a indicator on your targets. Thanks!
I have used a nikon 6.5 x 24 on prarie dogs out to 350 yards.
Good clear glass
Not a very rugged rig, but exploding prarie dogs are a realistic outcome
Good clear glass
Not a very rugged rig, but exploding prarie dogs are a realistic outcome
I remember an eye doctor that would fit your eyes to a special lens insert to fit the NM rear sight of a M-14 or M1A so your could have a sharp front sight image as well as a sharp target image.
He even had them in a yellow tint.
The lens just popped into the rear sight aperture but the range masters would not allow the device in camp Perry national matches.
Kentucky folks can shoot...Just like the guys from Tennessee.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zPmGXr0XH4
Be advised! Facts can be stranger then fiction and your shooting abilities may once again be required to preserve, protect and defend the US Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic just as written about in Matt Bracken's book called "ENEMIES FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC".
Be advised! Facts can be stranger then fiction and your shooting abilities may once again be required to preserve, protect and defend the US Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic just as written about in Matt Bracken's book called "ENEMIES FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC".
I shot CMP week at this year's National Matches and had the privilege of watching the Virginia Firearms Education and Marksmanship Instruction (VFEMI) Rifle Team win the National Trophy Infantry Team Match (colloquially called "Rattle Battle"), earning the High Civilian Team and Champion - High Overall Team trophies, and setting a new National Civilian Team record score -- quite an accomplishment considering they were shooting against my alma mater USAMU and the rest of the .mil and state teams.
This is a video clip of one stage of the match -- rapid fire shot on your belly at 600 yards in 50 seconds. 6 shooters engage 8 E-type silhouettes, then repeat at 500 yards. 300 yards is shot sitting. Left and right end shooters "Swing" to hit both outboard targets.
Iron sights and slings. No scopes, bipods, or mats.
NTIT 2014 - VFEMI sets new national record for civilian team - YouTube
I coached Virginia's out-of-competition team and we finished second behind Army Reserve.
This is a video clip of one stage of the match -- rapid fire shot on your belly at 600 yards in 50 seconds. 6 shooters engage 8 E-type silhouettes, then repeat at 500 yards. 300 yards is shot sitting. Left and right end shooters "Swing" to hit both outboard targets.
Iron sights and slings. No scopes, bipods, or mats.
NTIT 2014 - VFEMI sets new national record for civilian team - YouTube
I coached Virginia's out-of-competition team and we finished second behind Army Reserve.
OP, to answer your question. Not hard at all. You don't have to be special
or a high master to shoot an AR with irons out to 500 yards accurately.
Marines do this everyday. Some are administrative desk clerks.
Last time I took my SDMR out with M193, I shot a 7-1/2 inch group, 5 rounds
with iron sights at 500 yds. I'm not special either.
Most people don't know they can achieve this feat with good basic marksmanship
instruction because either they've never been in the service and/or they don't
have a 500 yard range to prove it to themselves.
Start with an AR rifle preferably that can outshoot you. If your AR rifle best is 4 MOA groups
with military ball (e.g. M855) with a trained shooter, no matter how good the
shooter- they cannot overcome the inherent limitations of the rifle. You wont
make that 4 MOA rifle shoot 2 MOA groups. If you are not getting good results,
let someone else shoot it. If they don't get good results get the rifle checked.
Yes despite the opinions of some on the thread, it's not always the shooter. I've had
AR's with loose barrel nut cause accuracy problems. I've also
had AK's that would shoot 4 MOA groups, and others with same ammo
same shooter same day could not do better than 8 MOA. Headspace, throat or barrel
wear, etc.. etc affect accuracy and can be different even on same type of guns.
If you don't build AK's or AR's you may have no clue all the things that can
mechanically and adversely affect accuracy, independent of the shooter.
So get a good rifle, good training, and establish what you rifle is capable of
under ideal conditions with a competent shooter (e.g., say 2.5 MOA with M193). After
practice with it. If you shoot 3 or 4 MOA groups with it, then don't blame anyone but yourself.
Your target also will tell you what you are doing right or wrong. Let it teach you.
OP to sum up I think using a rack grade M16/AR15 10" groups at 300 with irons
using M193 or M855 no wind and irons is very doable, provided shooters eyes are good, they
have good technique, and nothing wrong with rifle (e.g., barrel shot out, etc..)
or a high master to shoot an AR with irons out to 500 yards accurately.
Marines do this everyday. Some are administrative desk clerks.
Last time I took my SDMR out with M193, I shot a 7-1/2 inch group, 5 rounds
with iron sights at 500 yds. I'm not special either.
Most people don't know they can achieve this feat with good basic marksmanship
instruction because either they've never been in the service and/or they don't
have a 500 yard range to prove it to themselves.
Start with an AR rifle preferably that can outshoot you. If your AR rifle best is 4 MOA groups
with military ball (e.g. M855) with a trained shooter, no matter how good the
shooter- they cannot overcome the inherent limitations of the rifle. You wont
make that 4 MOA rifle shoot 2 MOA groups. If you are not getting good results,
let someone else shoot it. If they don't get good results get the rifle checked.
Yes despite the opinions of some on the thread, it's not always the shooter. I've had
AR's with loose barrel nut cause accuracy problems. I've also
had AK's that would shoot 4 MOA groups, and others with same ammo
same shooter same day could not do better than 8 MOA. Headspace, throat or barrel
wear, etc.. etc affect accuracy and can be different even on same type of guns.
If you don't build AK's or AR's you may have no clue all the things that can
mechanically and adversely affect accuracy, independent of the shooter.
So get a good rifle, good training, and establish what you rifle is capable of
under ideal conditions with a competent shooter (e.g., say 2.5 MOA with M193). After
practice with it. If you shoot 3 or 4 MOA groups with it, then don't blame anyone but yourself.
Your target also will tell you what you are doing right or wrong. Let it teach you.
OP to sum up I think using a rack grade M16/AR15 10" groups at 300 with irons
using M193 or M855 no wind and irons is very doable, provided shooters eyes are good, they
have good technique, and nothing wrong with rifle (e.g., barrel shot out, etc..)
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