I grew up on a 22, love the 22 and miss the 22! I read an occasional thread here about trainer rigs.....hmmmm. I've got a 7.62x39 I love and shoot the heck out of quite inexpensively and them my 6.5 which ain't so cheap. Is the 22 trainer a cost containment thing or is there another reason I may want to consider a 22lr over my x39 gasser for 'training'.
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Rifle Scopes How many of you folks here use a 22lr trainer?
- Thread starter atepointer
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I like shooting 22 because it will dance around more in the wind, the cost is great, no barrel wear and if you have a 100 yard range you can get a lot of quality training. I have never tried using 7.62x39 for long range training. If you have one or can afford one I would break out the 22, get a brick and go shoot, have fun and watch the bullet trace.
A 22LR will teach you to follow through (and remind you if you ever forget)...
I've shot my x39 out to ~ 520 and that's where it gets wonky/sub sonic, but the wind will make it dance heck even by 300 compared to 6.5. I do like the 100 yard idea though b/c I have a lot of local 100's, but the LR facility is ~ an hour away. 22 sounds like it's on the menu! Thanks for helping me connect the dots
I shoot my old 22s a lot for practice but it’s schuetzen practice and not prs. And my eley black 22 ammo costs as much per shot as a bulk 223 round so costs aren’t exactly “saved”.
Get a 22, you’ll like it and you can do it cheap.
Not sure how this relates to the scope section though...
Get a 22, you’ll like it and you can do it cheap.
Not sure how this relates to the scope section though...
I am currently looking into a 22lr trainer come .22lr PRS gun. Here in the UK things are just starting to grow in PRS/NRL full bore and now 22lr.
MY CZ455 works well although I would look to a change of stock and possibly fitting a Lilja barrel as an alternative to getting another rifle for PRS comps.
However, there are some great guns of interest, the likes of Vudoo V22 very expensive to the likes of the Ruger Precision very well priced.
Decisions, decisions...
MY CZ455 works well although I would look to a change of stock and possibly fitting a Lilja barrel as an alternative to getting another rifle for PRS comps.
However, there are some great guns of interest, the likes of Vudoo V22 very expensive to the likes of the Ruger Precision very well priced.
Decisions, decisions...
Back yard is limited to 70 yards and the range is only 220 yards = 22lr. Ammo is subsonic, bolt action with a suppressor = no one notices
Oops I'm going to chalk that up to not enough coffee on board yet. Oh wait I'm also on my iPhone I can blame it on that besides being an idiot
Spendy match .22 won't save you a buck. But, a .22 can save you if accept the accuracy you get using regular .22 A long time ago, I learned here that guys shoot .22 out to 300 to mimic what a .308 does in the wind at 1k. Now, standard .22 drops like a mofo @ 300 and it seems to drift even worse. But, out to that far it is relatively consistent. It's a bit of a hair puller until you get used to it, but if you can start on a calm day and get hits, you can train with that.
To get right down to precision training you can use match .22. For distance, you have to find it loaded to the same speed as your regular brand of .22 or it's an apples/oranges thing trying to make sense of the different velocities.
As to the scope, a lot of guys like to put the same scope on their .22 as they do their full power rifle. That's expensive, but if you are going to chase the lead, you've gotta get something to do it with. Some guys take the scope off their full power rifle and put it on the .22 for extended periods of training. Usually, that involves different rings and for whatever reason, things don't always seem the same. But, it's a workable solution.
To get right down to precision training you can use match .22. For distance, you have to find it loaded to the same speed as your regular brand of .22 or it's an apples/oranges thing trying to make sense of the different velocities.
As to the scope, a lot of guys like to put the same scope on their .22 as they do their full power rifle. That's expensive, but if you are going to chase the lead, you've gotta get something to do it with. Some guys take the scope off their full power rifle and put it on the .22 for extended periods of training. Usually, that involves different rings and for whatever reason, things don't always seem the same. But, it's a workable solution.
What 7.62x39 ammo are you shooting 500 with? I could not find cheap 7.62x39, that would stay inside of 3 moa.
Building a trainer right now. I wanted something that I could shoot that will help me learn better trigger control and improve my wind reading skills.
It will also be nice to have a nice accurate plinker to shoot while my other rifles are cooling down.
It will also be nice to have a nice accurate plinker to shoot while my other rifles are cooling down.
I own a .22lr AR-15. It is set up like my full powered AR, just with a dedicated .22lr bolt and barrel. I shoot 50 yard reduction targets. I like it because it's quick. I can staple a full course of targets to a piece of cardboard, hang them up, shoot a full practice match, and be packed up and leaving for home in about an hour. THAT is a big plus for someone (like me) who has limited time to practice. I still shoot the full power AR in practice when I can, but I have found the .22 version to be a decent practice tool.
Loooooove mine, .22 is legit what I shoot more than anything else. Depending on what your intended use is (replicate your LR rig, etc.) you can do it pretty cheap too. I have a 10/22 with upgrades (bolt, trigger, etc.) and a Green Mountain barrel, topped it with a 30 MOA rail and a $250 Athlon Argo BTR 6-24 FFP scope. You can definitely spend more if you want the reticle to match your LR gun but I think something like the Athlon or the Vortex Diamondback Tactical is fine for the ranges common with rimfire.
I bought some of these:
T-Post Target Hangers
Steel Targets
And hang 4"-8" gongs from 150 to 300 yds and just practice wind calls and dialing, a great day at the range, 200 rounds for $16 of Aquila AutoMatch from my local Sportsmans.
I bought some of these:
T-Post Target Hangers
Steel Targets
And hang 4"-8" gongs from 150 to 300 yds and just practice wind calls and dialing, a great day at the range, 200 rounds for $16 of Aquila AutoMatch from my local Sportsmans.
I have a Savage FV-SR in a Boyds Tacticool stock and some Vortex glass. It's fun watching the extreme arc on bullet trace when it's visible but wind is definitely a kill joy.
It's a good way for me to practice fundamentals and ensure I don't develop a flinch. It's also fun to just shoot a quiet rifle and pink some steel. Can't really go wrong with a 22!
It's a good way for me to practice fundamentals and ensure I don't develop a flinch. It's also fun to just shoot a quiet rifle and pink some steel. Can't really go wrong with a 22!
I've been shooting 99.9% 22lr way before a trainer became the done thing.
The main appeal to me is the noise and safety, as I only shoot on private property often near neighbours, who wouldn't appreciate 100 shots of centrefire in 30minutes.
One downside is you can forget what recoil feels like, but $5 for a box of ammo is hard to beat.
Use the cheapest ammo you can for short range shooting and positional shooting and only use the expense stuff for long range or when the accuracy is needed.
The main appeal to me is the noise and safety, as I only shoot on private property often near neighbours, who wouldn't appreciate 100 shots of centrefire in 30minutes.
One downside is you can forget what recoil feels like, but $5 for a box of ammo is hard to beat.
Use the cheapest ammo you can for short range shooting and positional shooting and only use the expense stuff for long range or when the accuracy is needed.
not sure how much of a trainer it is but we shoot a lot of 22lr well a lot to us with a mossberg 144 lsa bolt action out to 200 yards its far more accurate then I can shoot it so far , and a bucket of fun to shoot . Took of the peep sight for a sightron 10x50x60 30mm they are cheap fun and easy on the pocket , hard not to love the 22lr and the 22 mag still waiting for my cz 457 mtr , but not in too huge a hurry yet .
I usually start my range day out shooting the .22 to warm up. As far as a true trainer, I think dry firing and the .308 are the best tools.
I guess I'm at an impasse on decision time. I love my x39 and 100 rounds costs me $19 so quite inexpensive for a training with a 30cal round. I've got an SWFA 10x I can slap on it.....maybe that is just as good as a 22 in my scenario. Gonna simmer on this for a bit. I guess the only thing I might change is the 5.5 lb stock BCM trigger to something closer to what I have on my 6.5? Or just leave it alone? 6.5 has a 2.5 lb
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My kids are learning on a RPR 22, Rem 597, Ruger 10/22, and SW MP22s. Scope power rarely goes over 6-8x, range out to 200.
My 7 year old son's favorite is the 597 with pre-mounted 3-9 scope. 11 year old daughter likes the SW MP22 and Ruger 10/22.
My kids will shoot the RPR, but the semi autos rule the day around here for now. The RPR is truly a remarkable little rifle and they will come around.
My 7 year old son's favorite is the 597 with pre-mounted 3-9 scope. 11 year old daughter likes the SW MP22 and Ruger 10/22.
My kids will shoot the RPR, but the semi autos rule the day around here for now. The RPR is truly a remarkable little rifle and they will come around.
My Vudoo trainer is arguably the best investment I've made to progress my shooting. Better than 1050's for 9mm, better than PCC's to train rifle work and even better than a Stoeger class.
The barrel will last near forever. The ammo is relatively inexpensive AND no time is involved in reloading. I can run 10 shooters in a row at a match as a loaner rifle and never worry about the barrel. New / young / recoil averse shooters love it. The lack of recoil allows me to focus on developing good habits without dealing with the noise or recoil. It's fun as shit watching the little 22 plates spin like crazy.
The barrel will last near forever. The ammo is relatively inexpensive AND no time is involved in reloading. I can run 10 shooters in a row at a match as a loaner rifle and never worry about the barrel. New / young / recoil averse shooters love it. The lack of recoil allows me to focus on developing good habits without dealing with the noise or recoil. It's fun as shit watching the little 22 plates spin like crazy.
My Vudoo trainer is arguably the best investment I've made to progress my shooting. Better than 1050's for 9mm, better than PCC's to train rifle work and even better than a Stoeger class.
The barrel will last near forever. The ammo is relatively inexpensive AND no time is involved in reloading. I can run 10 shooters in a row at a match as a loaner rifle and never worry about the barrel. New / young / recoil averse shooters love it. The lack of recoil allows me to focus on developing good habits without dealing with the noise or recoil. It's fun as shit watching the little 22 plates spin like crazy.
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Do you feel that brake has helped you achieve longer shooting strings before your shoulder tells you to stop?
22lr standard velocity is very good at pointing out your faults.
You can spend a lot on ammo or better yet shoot something like cci sv until you have maxed out the potential of that and then move on.
You can start with a modest base model and upgrade a piece at a time.
Track your results after each change.
You can spend a lot on ammo or better yet shoot something like cci sv until you have maxed out the potential of that and then move on.
You can start with a modest base model and upgrade a piece at a time.
Track your results after each change.
I couldn't finish a match without it. 10/10.Do you feel that brake has helped you achieve longer shooting strings before your shoulder tells you to stop?
I'd recommend everyone put one on their 22 trainer and of course match rifles as well. We all want our training and match rifles to be set up identically right?
?That is awesome! We need more of this! Thank you and congratulations simultaneously.
Thanks. I am game for whatever my kids want to do where I can spend time with them. They’ve taken to it pretty well, but my son is a little cocky. He thinks it’s easy.
We will see how he does when he has to mil range , figure his own holdover for wind, and discovers the ballistics app doesn’t always guarantee that the round will go where you want it to.
I shoot my 22 all the time. It helps me practice stable positions on baracades and weird shooting positions. Like the others have said, it's cheap and no reloading required.
Have a vudoo that matches my prs rifle. Best thing I have done. Has taught me tons about my trigger pull. It will show your weaknesses. When I shoot it off a barricade I know if the miss was me or the wind. I shoot 2 strings thru it between strings of my dasher when practicing. Plus I have taken it to 540 yards and that was cooler than anything I have done with a centerfire.
I have been thinking of this especially since I don't have access to cheap ammo now. I see a 22 trainer in my near future.
I carried my 10/22 all over God creation as kid, I picked it up in 68 I think, those today are not even close to the quality and feel. When I picked my Nylon 66 mid 70s, its more accurate and a little lighter to carry around but I prefer the sights on the 10/22. Point is, 22LR is a
valuable tool to have and use.
I carried my 10/22 all over God creation as kid, I picked it up in 68 I think, those today are not even close to the quality and feel. When I picked my Nylon 66 mid 70s, its more accurate and a little lighter to carry around but I prefer the sights on the 10/22. Point is, 22LR is a
valuable tool to have and use.
There is only so much you can do with a 22lr its great for when your new to shooting, and lets you separate some of the issues out by having limited blast and recoil, but if your shooting for groups you really need to shoot at 50 yards. The best 22lr with the best ammo is still going to struggle to shoot 1 MOA at 100 yards. I have a 6mmbr that will shoot tiny groups at that distance all day. Outside of competitions I don't really see the point of shooting a rifle I know I can out shoot all day long. I know some people like to pretend its a .308 at longer distance, but here's the thing its just pretending, a bunch of things including optics work different at longer ranges.
If you have access to a long range, I'll play devil's advocate and say that I think many people build them just as an excuse to spend $5k on another toy and rationalize it as a "trainer". That $5k is almost 4000 rounds of 6.5, not to mention to get max accuracy from your .22 it's going to be $15+ per 50 for match ammo.. If you only have access to a 100-200 yard range, can't get to a longer range etc. and you're on a budget, building something under $1000 then maybe there's some benefit. However, unless you have the same chassis, optic, weight/balance, trigger, and bolt throw it's not an ideal trainer, and that means it's not going to be cheap. If there's one thing talking to olympic level coaches for shooting sports has hammered home it's that consistency is key, and you don't get that shooting something that's not your tournament gun.
When was the last time you saw someone say "I'm gonna build a .223 or .308 as a ".338 trainer" because at 400-800 yards it's like a 338 at xxxx-xxxx and it's cheap ammo"? I'd bet never.
Don't get me wrong, I love shooting accurate .22's they are amazing fun, lots of great .22 matches are popping up, and many of us can't easily get to 1000+ yard ranges, so there absolutely can be benefits to them. They are great for getting kids going, great for new shooters to "break in" to noise/recoil, but I just don't buy that for most of these rigs I see spending several thousand $'s on "trainers" is really about "economy" and training.
When was the last time you saw someone say "I'm gonna build a .223 or .308 as a ".338 trainer" because at 400-800 yards it's like a 338 at xxxx-xxxx and it's cheap ammo"? I'd bet never.
Don't get me wrong, I love shooting accurate .22's they are amazing fun, lots of great .22 matches are popping up, and many of us can't easily get to 1000+ yard ranges, so there absolutely can be benefits to them. They are great for getting kids going, great for new shooters to "break in" to noise/recoil, but I just don't buy that for most of these rigs I see spending several thousand $'s on "trainers" is really about "economy" and training.
I think that they are fun and a teaching tool. I sold my sako quad in an A5 and miss is. I plan to replace it with a vudoo pretty soon. I have a pretty busy life so trying to find time to reload in pretty nonexistent and I can get to a 200yd opening within a couple minutes of my house. Then there is the rate of fire you can sustain. With a 22lr you can pretty much load and shoot as fast as you want without ever worrying about cooling off. I probably shot my rim fire 100 to 1 versus centerfire rounds.
I don't think we could ever realistically start justifying what we spend. We buy them because we have the disposable income and it gives us some enjoyment.
You have to look at it in the long haul.
Lets take a match rifle in 6cm. Lets say a barrel is good for 1500 rnds.
I buy a vudoo barreled action and trigger for $2k. I can use the optic and chassis from my match rifle.
So, I’m $2k in the hole right now. 108 hornady 6cm ammo is about $1.20/rnd. But lets say I could load or buy practice ammo for $0.60/rnd.
I can get sk standard plus for $0.10/rnd.
1500 rnds 6cm = $900
1500 .22 = $150
$750 savings
Now, I need to buy a new 6cm barrel. That’s about $700. I’ll never need a new .22 barrel.
700 + 750 = $1450.
You’re now just in the hole $550. But you’re going to keep shooting. So the next barrel, now you’re in the black on savings $900. And from there on out, you’re saving $1450 every 1500 rnd if you would have used that 6cm.
But the point is, every barrel you would have burned up in that 6cm = $1450
We can do the same math for a .223 or .308 trainer. It won’t be as severe, but it will still be a significant amount of savings.
I have access to at least 1200 if I want to drive. And 950 yds just 10min away.
But I’ll still put in about 10,000 rnds of .22 ammo a year. 1: it’s fun 2: you absolutely save a shit ton of cash over time
Also, having the same bolt throw and other things is some shit people play up too much.
The most important thing for positional shooting is the balance point of the rifle.
A 12lb .22 rifle that balances the same as your 20lb 6mm is going to be extremely close in recoil as the 6mm doesn’t move much.
And moving the rifle from position to position ain’t gonna be that big a deal from a few pounds.
As far as triggers, if you can’t adjust to a trigger after some dryfiring, your fundamentals need work. The best shooters can pick up a 3.5lb AI 2 stage and shoot just as good as a 1lb diamond they shot 10min ago.
All good points, and there is utility in having a .22 trainer if it gets you more reps and it's close to your tournament gun. In part it depends on how serious you are. Also most of the rigs I see guys are not swapping anything, they are buying a $1-2k chassis and $3k optic as well as the $2k vudoo, it's a dedicated trainer. But of course, again over time as tournament shooters ammo is always the most expensive item, so you will make up the ground shooting round for round regardless it's just a matter of how long.
I used to be a national level trap shooter, and have been to the Olympic Training center more than once. I'll argue that the same number of reps with your actual competition gun, regardless of your skill level are more valuable than with any other gun. As a kid I made good $ when some guy would say something like "I could shoot that good if I had a Perazzi" and then I'd bet them $20 I could shoot better scores with their own shotgun I'd never touched, and almost always did. However, just because someone with enough skill can shoot about any platform really well, doesn't mean changing equipment frequently is not still not having a negative impact on their muscle memory, and subconscious/conscious shot routine. I remember a All American team captain telling me once that he'd pay $100k for anything that could get his average up 0.1 of a target. Now of course if you can get 5 shooting sessions a week with a 22 trainer that's close to your tournament gun and only can get to a 1000 yard range once a month for an hour there's absolutely a point where reps with anything are better than no reps.
In 25 years of high end competitive trapshooting not once have I ever heard someone say they practice with a .410 because it's less recoil and is cheaper to shoot. The best shoot with the same equipment they compete with.
Bolt throw does matter in the new trend of lower and lower stage times, but you're right it's not a huge deal, but again it all adds up for the guys at the top of the game. Ask a grand master USPSA shooter if they'd practice drawing with a different model holster and gun than they shoot in tournaments.......of course not. For the guys that are at the top of the game everything matters, and for the top shooters that have the means, I'd bet they are not training with anything other than their competition gun.
I used to be a national level trap shooter, and have been to the Olympic Training center more than once. I'll argue that the same number of reps with your actual competition gun, regardless of your skill level are more valuable than with any other gun. As a kid I made good $ when some guy would say something like "I could shoot that good if I had a Perazzi" and then I'd bet them $20 I could shoot better scores with their own shotgun I'd never touched, and almost always did. However, just because someone with enough skill can shoot about any platform really well, doesn't mean changing equipment frequently is not still not having a negative impact on their muscle memory, and subconscious/conscious shot routine. I remember a All American team captain telling me once that he'd pay $100k for anything that could get his average up 0.1 of a target. Now of course if you can get 5 shooting sessions a week with a 22 trainer that's close to your tournament gun and only can get to a 1000 yard range once a month for an hour there's absolutely a point where reps with anything are better than no reps.
In 25 years of high end competitive trapshooting not once have I ever heard someone say they practice with a .410 because it's less recoil and is cheaper to shoot. The best shoot with the same equipment they compete with.
Bolt throw does matter in the new trend of lower and lower stage times, but you're right it's not a huge deal, but again it all adds up for the guys at the top of the game. Ask a grand master USPSA shooter if they'd practice drawing with a different model holster and gun than they shoot in tournaments.......of course not. For the guys that are at the top of the game everything matters, and for the top shooters that have the means, I'd bet they are not training with anything other than their competition gun.
Lol. Bolt throw doesn’t matter at all.
I have a vudoo that’s 90deg and short throw. I have an AI with 60deg. Several impacts and Curtis with 60 and 90.
Zero difference in stage times with any of them. Never had a short stroke either.
Trap shooting ain’t precision rifle. Neither is uspsa.
You’re comparing apples to oranges here.
I have a vudoo that’s 90deg and short throw. I have an AI with 60deg. Several impacts and Curtis with 60 and 90.
Zero difference in stage times with any of them. Never had a short stroke either.
Trap shooting ain’t precision rifle. Neither is uspsa.
You’re comparing apples to oranges here.
With trap and uspsa, you’re basically reactive and dynamic shooting. Extremely fast.
Almost zero similarity to PRS. You have time and opportunity in PRS to make methodical trigger presses and run your bolt.
If you have developed proper fundamentals, a few dryfires on a trigger will get you in pretty good shape to make a good trigger pull.
Almost zero similarity to PRS. You have time and opportunity in PRS to make methodical trigger presses and run your bolt.
If you have developed proper fundamentals, a few dryfires on a trigger will get you in pretty good shape to make a good trigger pull.
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