How reliable is the M4/M16 rifle?

[kraigWY]

This was posted on another site. Impressive since it came from the NY Times.

M4 on fire

I did the same thing years ago. I was running a sniper school using M1s with I was approached by a RA LT, asking for some help, he had to get rid of some ammo, using it to avoid loosing his ammo allocation for the next year. I agreed and he drops off 30K rounds of M193.

I sent one of the students back to his unit to get 10 M16A1s and gave the students the afternoon off, to dispose of the M-193, they did. Any one who witnessed that event would have to question the nah sayers who says the M16 system dosn't work or in not reliable. We turned those barrels red, and they kept firing. No cleaning until we were done and the ammo was gone.

 

[Falar]

Re: How reliable is the M4/M16 rifle?

Odd, because it was the NY times that has run a lot of the hitpieces on the weapon system.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: How reliable is the M4/M16 rifle?

It's just back and forth propaganda pieces between companies.

Gun makers, who are vying for large contracts have taken to hiring high level retired military as well as professional lobbyist and public relation firms to do battle in the press. Either for or against the current rifle.

They also create the same viral emails that say, their son in the USMC using the M24 hates A, B, or C system making it seem like a real letter from home.

It's become very political, with each side spinning it hoping the powers that be, will open up the bid for a new system, needed or not. Better or worse.

 

[kchu02]

Re: How reliable is the M4/M16 rifle?

http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/filthy14_oct10.pdf

BCM carbine goes 31,165 rounds

 

[Lowlight]

Re: How reliable is the M4/M16 rifle?

I have seen Filthy 14 in action... no bs and was given to a guy who's ACR went down.

 

[demonsmokr]

Re: How reliable is the M4/M16 rifle?

The filthy 14 is not full auto for 31k rounds. So its not that impressive. So me something that can fire full auto for over 1000rds. And have it on video. Thats what I want to see. I wish companies would release their torture videos on their guns.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: How reliable is the M4/M16 rifle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GoatHead</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The filthy 14 is not full auto for 31k rounds. So its not that impressive. So me something that can fire full auto for over 1000rds. And have it on video. Thats what I want to see. I wish companies would release their torture videos on their guns. </div></div>

Who shoots that much full auto so what would be the point... it's simply a waste of time.

The impressive part is, the rifle sits there and shot this over time, with nothing more than a squirt of Slip 2000. It wasn't done in a single sitting so over that down time the potential of it getting gummed up is increased.

Full Auto is BS... at that point you are only testing the metal's ability to hold up to heat.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: How reliable is the M4/M16 rifle?

I've seen torture test, over and over again. I've done torture test. I'm not impressed what some new limited production system will do, I'm concerned what our battle rifles will do. The M16 system works.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: How reliable is the M4/M16 rifle?

Kraig

In a typical class, we see far more problems with bolt guns and scopes when compared to the military M4 classes. We never have down time to fix an M4 as compared to the precision rifle classes.

The M16 system works, issued or otherwise.

 

[Rooterbegger]

Re: How reliable is the M4/M16 rifle?

That video is absolutely amazing! Wonder what the temp of the barrel got to and what the rifling looked like when all said and done.

Thanks for posting!

Cheers!

Rooter

 

[MidwestPX]

Re: How reliable is the M4/M16 rifle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kchu02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/filthy14_oct10.pdf

BCM carbine goes 31,165 rounds </div></div>

This rifle made an appearance at the EAG class I took a couple weeks ago. It bleeds carbon but it goes bang every time you pull the trigger. Pat was rocking this one for all three days as was Mr. Grumpy.

 

[R.Walters]

Re: How reliable is the M4/M16 rifle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MidwestPX</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kchu02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/filthy14_oct10.pdf

BCM carbine goes 31,165 rounds </div></div>

This rifle made an appearance at the EAG class I took a couple weeks ago. It bleeds carbon but it goes bang every time you pull the trigger. Pat was rocking this one for all three days as was Mr. Grumpy.</div></div> 31k rounds without a cleaning is very impressive, if you dont agree youre lacking something up top

 

[Badshot308]

Re: How reliable is the M4/M16 rifle?

That was impressive. What was that 31 or 32 full magazines before it finally started to fail?

 

[Wild_Bill]

Re: How reliable is the M4/M16 rifle?

the thing is the rifle would have been to hot to use after 8 or 10 mags and it performed perfectly well past then, When in the Australian Army we had to get rid of some surplus ammo and i fired 6 mags straight full auto in a Steyr AUG with 30 rounds in each after wards you could not hold the rifle by the carry handle/ scope and the rifle was just to hot to use. So if you want to use a rifle and keep using it for an extended perioud full auto is a total waste of time because the rifle becomes to hot to handle so short brsts and semi auto is the way to make the rifles last the distance if any of the systems deployed at this time were not up to that standard they would not have passed the first tests and trials to be adopted.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: How reliable is the M4/M16 rifle?

So, what loads were they using? And so others may get up to speed and fire as close to the same quality ammo what powder is used for each of the three common types of 5.56mm? i.e. M193, M855/SS109 and Mk262 mod. 0/1?
I'm using RE-15 and getting 2690 fps from my 16" carbine with 75/77 gr. match type bullets. But, it's as filthy as the shit I used to wash from the holding pen when I milked cows on our farm growing up. When using H4895 and 55 gr./62 gr. bullets the rifle and carbine are much cleaner. Each has standard length gas tubes respectively. I do see that I get very close to overpressure when coming up on max. FWIW, I get 3050 when shooting 25 gr. of RE-15 from my bolt gun. And there is more chamber pressure than my 5.56. So, I'm thinking for the 5.56 the load is about right.

I'm glad filthy 14 has done what it has done, but my personal experience with M16A1's led me to believe that they need to wiped down more often than stated. I do agree that chamber brushes on drills is EXTREME! and not necessary. Standard cleaning is best. And if you can avoid it, don't trash the inside of your barrels with military cleaning kits. That no doubt does do a lot more damage than not cleaning a barrel. Scraping the bolt is not preferred but sometimes necessary (unless I completely misunderstand how the rifle works) on the back of the bolt where carbon builds up and in the cam slot where carbon really slows down the movement of the bolt and bolt carrier.

I gotta ask too, as I've never used it, how does this slip 2000 work when in extreme cold? Most lubes I've used on -10F day tend to turn to butter...the solid kind. I've gotten into the habit of not lubricating internal parts on the rifles. From what I've gathered from most of you who have used it on this post, that it does emulsify carbon pretty well? (loosen by lubrication).

Maybe a dab of it might help get the carbon off the necks of the brass I reload eh?

This isn't a challenge to the validity of what has been stated here I'd just like to know what changes, and a solid explanation of why those changes, would be beneficial {added:} for me to make.

-Thx in advance.

 

[KYS]

Re: How reliable is the M4/M16 rifle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GoatHead</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The filthy 14 is not full auto for 31k rounds. So its not that impressive. So me something that can fire full auto for over 1000rds. And have it on video. Thats what I want to see. I wish companies would release their torture videos on their guns. </div></div>

Full auto is no more dirty then semi auto. As LL said, it's all about heat at that point. So your wanting to see heat endurance.

 

[cal50]

Re: How reliable is the M4/M16 rifle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GoatHead</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The filthy 14 is not full auto for 31k rounds. So its not that impressive. So me something that can fire full auto for over 1000rds. And have it on video. Thats what I want to see. I wish companies would release their torture videos on their guns. </div></div>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CRXH-muly0

850 round burst which is a lot squad weapon or not. I hope it was a stellite lined barrel.

Back to the M4/M16 debate. I had a tranferable M16A2 and the max I fired it in one session was 1200 rounds. 8 mags rapid succession made the gun VERY hard to hold on to (HOT). I was re-barreling it so I wanted to flog the old barrel.

I was shooting re-loads using IMR-4198 single based powder. The action was very clean and little carbon build up and could have kept firing after the 1200 round mark. Switching to ball powder propellant (846 or 748) there is a lot more carbon and crud in the action and bolt.

I agree with others comments that running full auto non-stop looks cool but is impractical and usually a waste.

On the M60 video if you put a small target down range (200 yards) I bet the 60 gunner would have minimal hits if any and one aimed shot would get the job done faster.

 

[Badshot308]

Re: How reliable is the M4/M16 rifle?

Here's an M-60 being fired to the point of failure http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGAwrmOapb4

 

[Mac679]

Re: How reliable is the M4/M16 rifle?

Sandwarrior,

I've been using Slip 2000's EWL in Afghanistan for the past 2 deployments (15 mos for OEF 8 and 12 for OEF 10). I haven't noticed it turn to butter in the colder months. It also doesn't collect the crap like CLP and other lubes do-at least nowhere near as bad. And in my experience it has made noticeably easier.


Mac



BTW, I believe I saw Pat Rogers mention elsewhere that Filthy 14 is now sitting around 39K rds on the gun (and since that was a couple weeks ago, I'd venture that round count is higher now)

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: How reliable is the M4/M16 rifle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mac679</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sandwarrior,

I've been using Slip 2000's EWL in Afghanistan for the past 2 deployments (15 mos for OEF 8 and 12 for OEF 10). I haven't noticed it turn to butter in the colder months. It also doesn't collect the crap like CLP and other lubes do-at least nowhere near as bad. And in my experience it has made noticeably easier.


Mac
</div></div>

Copy that, thanks Mac. FWIW, I understand, the word "austere" is a generous description of Afghanistan. Thank you for your service. And for keeping our torches lit.