How the Hide has changed

[Foul Mike]

Things have changed here all along.
At first it was one liners and a whole bunch of old dumbfucks all learning about a computer.
Then things changed and there were pictures. WOW.
Some of the old dumbfucks are still around and they are who you go to for sage advise, Greg, etc.
Some of the old dumb fucks are still around and love to Slap around. Get em all thinking.
Out of the first two hundred or there abouts, that were first on here, how many are left?

 

[BobinNC]

"Things must change, in order that they can stay the same."

Or in the original Italian: "Se vogliamo che tutto rimanga com'è bisogna che tutto cambi."

Author: Giuseppe di Lampedusa


So if things have changed on the Hide, it's not all bad.And if the ratio of Subject matter experts to spoon fed novices has changed for the worse, it's only because the SME's die out over time and spoon fed novices multiply like Texas rabbits.

Frankly, the fact the the Hide is still here and thriving is a unique and lucky thing. And one that it has been a privilege to be a small part of.

 

[my human host]

Might be a tangent, but... I would like to see people encouraged to follow the old rule for posting 100yd groups.
Little tired of pics of a tiny group on a tiny corner of what is likely a large target. It's not an accurate representation of what a shooter and his rifle are capable of.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

when countersniper is actually recommended, then you know the hide has changed.

when newbies call them precision rifles and not sniper rifles, then you know the hide has changed.

when shankster posts a thin chick, then you know the hide has changed.

when VJJ isn't so damn entertaining, then you know the hide has changed.

when LL prefers miley over gaga, then you know the hide has changed.

when there's less whining over something not really that consequential, then you know the hide has changed.

when there isn't 25 posts a day asking what caliber and scope to shoot 1,000 yards for a new shooter, then you know the hide has changed.

when greg langelius doesn't sound so darn wise, then you know the hide has changed.

when a topic stays on topic for more than 7 posts, then you know the hide has changed.

when you don't feel like you have to switch to another tab while the ol' lady walks in while your viewing the motivational thread, then you know the hide has changed.

when you get part time job rather than spending the 20 hours a week posting, then you know the hide has changed.

.....different dress, same mistress

 

[lash]

Great post TOP PREDATOR! LMAO!

 

[Jon Lester]

I miss Larry( nobody) Never was such a cool guy so ...well.......you know.

 

[Lowlight]

I'd let Larry back in a second if people didn't flood us with Moderator Alerts and constant complains about his posts.

I personally have no problem with him or his posts, it's just the membership who talks a lot and does little do and will kill us with alerts.

Honestly, if you can't handle being called a Nancy or Candy Ass should you really be on a gun site ? Call him a name back if you think you are in the right. Instead they cry to the mods.

 

[Slapchop]

I'd let Larry back in a second if people didn't flood us with Moderator Alerts and constant complains about his posts.

I personally have no problem with him or his posts, it's just the membership who talks a lot and does little do and will kill us with alerts.

Honestly, if you can't handle being called a Nancy or Candy Ass should you really be on a gun site ? Call him a name back if you think you are in the right. Instead they cry to the mods.

It's a shame that among "grown men" there exists so many thin skinned rats! I've found myself in some nasty disagreements on here and have been labeled everything under the sun. Never did it occur to me to be a tattle tale and rat out the offending party.

 

[Mark williams]

I'm a fairly new guy to the site but not a newbie when it comes to life. I don't know how it used to be but I think it's a great site. Their are lots of great people on this site with lots to add, not only about shooting,etc, but about life as well. This is the only site I'm on or ever been on. Hell , I'm one of the newbies that don't no anything about computers, cyber world and all the other gadgets. I've been texting and had smart phone for about 8 months so I guess you could call me old fashioned as well. I will say I don't like most of the changes the world and our country's undertaken but I thoroughly enjoy and learn a lot from the hide, and it's the people I enjoy on here. I truly beleive if you listen to anyone enough you can learn something from every person. I know the sites changed but I enjoy and learn from all of it. Thanks gentlemen for listnening to a newbies feelings, and thanks lowlight for a great site. Mark williams

 

[tansinator]

You don't have to miss Larry. Asrealasitgets.com is his home. All of his knowledge is still there. So is all the other good chit that most of us enjoy.

Eddie

 

[ArcticLight]

Long time no see!

 

[ArcticLight]

when newbies call them precision rifles and not sniper rifles, then you know the hide has changed.

To be fair, I recall a lot of USMC snipers (and USArmy) stating that civilians were NOT snipers.

Technically they are correct, and since the public is a bunch of woosies these days and can't handle facts well, precision rifle came about, especially since there are no civilian snipers they don't need sniper rifles!

I remember that argument all too well, and being a civilian I agreed with the Snipers!

 

[Graham]

To be fair, a lot of military snipers are not Snipers either.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free

 

[Lowlight]

Like the Marine who Sniped vs a real school trained and billeted Marine Sniper

one has the actual MOS and job, the other has a rifle with a scope on it.

In a lot of ways I wish it was that easy, skip the whole school part and go straight to just whacking someone through a scope and it calling it good.

 

[J-Ham]

But that's kinda tricky too Frank... Because you've got the guy who actually holds the 8541 MOS but never did shit with it but run a bunch of training ops, and then you've got me, just a lowly PIG, who had an M40 & got to run around & use it, but still can't really call myself a sniper... It's a weird community & a weird situation.

But I suppose in the grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter much what you call it... It's kinda like our post counts in that respect. I can go outside & tell everyone that I was some hotshot sniper but it won't change shit, and certainly won't make my dick any bigger (or HER vagina any smaller), haha!

 

[Lowlight]

Not tricky at all, you had Years of no combat, no wars, vs the last 12 years of straight war. Why can't you be satisfied in saying you're an 0311 who was in STA vs the guy who's running around calling himself a sniper for shooting a guy in the same war along with what, a million other service men and women who weren't snipers. By the, I used a scope definition, everyone with an optic on an M4 who aimed is a sniper.

The rules are pretty clear, how the world breaks is a matter of fate. You know the sayings, the bug or windshield, sometimes you're the bear, sometimes not so much. Think of the guy who enlisted in 1998, went to SS in 2000, he wasn't thinking he'd see combat, surprise.

For me I never imaged seeing anything, but yet as a Marine assigned to MAGTF 2-88, I got lucky. I didn't want to go to Norway so I went to the Gulf. Luck, fate, whatever. Graduated school, was in billet, and fate stepped in. Weak by today's standard but in 1988, I'll take what the God of War threw me.

Do you honestly think a Marine who was a school trained sniper holding the billet in 1996 would perform any different if 9/11 happened in 1997 ?

Did you you ever shoot a machine gun during a deployment ? Are you an 0331 or would you even claim to be one if you did? I fired the Mk19 a ton off the Trenton, I don't consider myself a heavy gunner I'm still just an 0311/8541. You can't charge what your SRB says those are the rules.

People who want to break those rules, well whatever. I have little respect for them. History writes the rules we just tag along for the ride.

 

[J-Ham]

I agree with most of what you'r saying, although I see a clear distinction between firing a machine gun some (which we've all done) and being billeted & operating in that capacity day in & day out. But at the end of the day you're right, I'm a PIG, dems da rules, there's no changing that.

 

[Cartman]

It's a shame that among "grown men" there exists so many thin skinned rats! I've found myself in some nasty disagreements on here and have been labeled everything under the sun. Never did it occur to me to be a tattle tale and rat out the offending party.

x1000
How anyone on any forum thinks to whine to a mod -- and it happens all the time on all forums -- is beyond me. Some men are clearly wired differently than others.

 

[Ultraman550]

I'd let Larry back in a second if people didn't flood us with Moderator Alerts and constant complains about his posts.

I personally have no problem with him or his posts, it's just the membership who talks a lot and does little do and will kill us with alerts.

Honestly, if you can't handle being called a Nancy or Candy Ass should you really be on a gun site ? Call him a name back if you think you are in the right. Instead they cry to the mods.

People really complain to you guys about being called names?

 

[Eastbay]

Honestly, if you can't handle being called a Nancy or Candy Ass should you really be on a gun site ? Call him a name back if you think you are in the right. Instead they cry to the mods.

Last time I called someone a Nancy I got suspended from the forum; I like it around here..

 

[-Nick-]

Call him a name back if you think you are in the right...

 

[Krav69]

Nobody (Larry) was freakin' awesome, a true master of the Art of the Internet Flamewar and ThreadShitting.

I kinda miss the guy...

Anyone else remember the flamewar over his Alaskan halibut fishing trip? An innocuous thread that flamed out so badly I couldn't stop watching.

 

[tiNdvenTFHwMdqKW]

Honestly, if you can't handle being called a Nancy or Candy Ass should you really be on a gun site ? Call him a name back if you think you are in the right. Instead they cry to the mods.

Best post ever!

 

[ArcticLight]

Why can't you be satisfied in saying you're an 0311 who was in STA vs the guy who's running around calling himself a sniper for shooting a guy in the same war along with what, a million other service men and women who weren't snipers. By the, I used a scope definition, everyone with an optic on an M4 who aimed is a sniper.

Well said Frank, well said.

I was a commo guy, I was one hell of a gung ho commo guy that provided the encryption codes and authentication codes to call Arty, to call for lunch, to call for medivac. That was my job.
That I carried a rifle was also my job.

Yoda Quote: "Ohhh. Great warrior.Wars not make one great.”

 

[Graham]

 

[fnbrowning]

Might be a tangent, but... I would like to see people encouraged to follow the old rule for posting 100yd groups.
Little tired of pics of a tiny group on a tiny corner of what is likely a large target. It's not an accurate representation of what a shooter and his rifle are capable of.

+1

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Reading here a very long time. Changes here like all the other web sights, sit-rep normal. A few bring happiness when they arrive others when they depart. Always those who have to pee on the electric fence for their-self to completely grasp the concept, requiring that lesson twice or more is normal for type A net only, shooters.

 

[Cartman]

Might be a tangent, but... I would like to see people encouraged to follow the old rule for posting 100yd groups.
Little tired of pics of a tiny group on a tiny corner of what is likely a large target. It's not an accurate representation of what a shooter and his rifle are capable of.

Didn't groups here used to be 10 shot minimum?

 

[Graham]

How the Hide has changed

Didn't groups here used to be 10 shot minimum?

That was a minimum group of ten, a minyan, for prayer.

 

[Cartman]

That was a minimum group of ten, a minyan, for prayer.

Do women count for you, or do you rock public prayer old-school?

 

[Cartman]

Graham, here's what I was trying to remember from five years ago:

Okay, I have to revisit the posting rules for Sniper's Hide specifically regarding 3 shot groups.

I know early on I said we can do 3 shot groups if they are beyond 100 yards, but I am gonna call myself out on this and change the rules.

From this day forward I am deleting any 3 shot groups period, and especially any groups that are groups within a group.

So here are the revised rules for posting groups on Sniper's Hide.


1. You must show the Entire target unedited.

2. Inside 300 yards you must post at least (5) 5 shot groups that can be identified on target or you may post (1) 10 shot group for record.

3. Anything beyond 300 yards a minimum of 5 shots is required, also please adhere to rule #1.

4. The group shot rules can be bypassed only with a target using 10 or more 1/2" dots with one individual round on each dot for a minimum of 10 shots.

5. Shots on steel can only be used for demonstration purposes and not as part of an exhibition of group shooting. These images must be in conjunction with rifles, optics, etc... they cannot be standalone.

6. Groups shots must be within 2 MOA of the aiming point, otherwise I consider the shots a miss.


This is my effort to help everyone strive to be a better shooter and to shun mediocrity. At Sniper's Hide we want to set the standard of what shooting good groups means, and we encourage those who are practicing to display their groups especially if you are working on improving your skills.

Any group currently posted on the site will be grandfathered in, however moving forward I ask the membership to be vigilant in enforcing the group shot rules and regulations. I think you'll thank me in the long run and we'll help raise the bar for everyone.

 

[Graham]

How the Hide has changed

Was that five years ago already?!! Five years ago people posting advice could at least print shots on paper.

 

[Maggot]

Time flies when your having fun.

 

[Graham]

Time flies when your having fun.

Maggot!! How I miss contradicting you. Lol!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free

 

[Cartman]

Was that five years ago already?!! Five years ago people posting advice could at least print shots on paper.

Graham, you need to keep up with the times: One good group out of ten = "all day long".

But seriously, there are still people around who know their stuff. Including some new folks. But while I don't know everything about someone from a few posts on the internet sometimes it seems like there are some posts that are similar to what ARFDOTCOM is criticized for. I don't remember as much of that sort of thing years ago. Of course I could be wrong and am remembering incorrectly -- or maybe I'm wrong about ARF.

 

[ArcticLight]

Far as I'm concerned, if you served in combat, shot from a concealed location with the intent to remove a human from earth, you are a sniper.

Maybe you are not a Scout/Sniper but the definition is exactly that. WW2 had snipers that did just that, but no title to go.

If the enemy is pinned down what are you? - "Sniper pinning us down"......

It's really semantics, the point is that wanna-be's cannot be snipers. People shooting people in combat from a concealed location are snipers.

I say people, out of respect for LE snipers as well.

That argument is rather chicken or the egg though, that's my opinion.

If you are a cook but using a scoped rifle at a distance in combat, you are a sniper, maybe not a scout/sniper.....

Semanics. PUh.

 

[Graham]

How the Hide has changed

I say people, out of respect for LE snipers as well..

LE snipers are Snipers when they know and employ proper fieldcraft and are used on more than Hasty missions. Otherwise, calling yourself a law enforcement 'sniper' is an exercise in ambition.

 

[ArcticLight]

Fieldcraft has nothing to do with shooting, and I know the 8541's will disagree.
tit for tat, a sniper is a shooter of people from a concealed location. That's the definition by the dictionary, LE has a different definition, the media has a different definition.
It's all relative.

Why anyone would want to brag about going out and shooting someone is beyond me though but there are some that do.

So I don't want to drudge up this chicken and egg debate, it's just my opinion and your have your opinion.

 

[Redmanss]

WW2 had snipers that did just that, but no title to go.

The Marine Corps had a Scout Sniper course in WWII. There was a copy of Col Cuddy's father's certificate hanging in the Quantico school house dated 1943 if I remember correctly. Check page 6 here: http://www.bobrohrer.com/sea_stories/history_of_the_usmc_sniper_school.pdf

 

[Hasgun Willtravel]

I don't get the sour grapes.... we have to look at the bright side and admit that we have turned internet porn creepers into gun owners, all thanks to the bear pit.

And that's success.

 

[Cartman]

I don't get the sour grapes.... we have to look at the bright side and admit that we have turned internet porn creepers into gun owners, all thanks to the bear pit.

And that's success.

Funny stuff!

 

[pawprint2]

LE snipers are Snipers when they know and employ proper fieldcraft and are used on more than Hasty missions. Otherwise, calling yourself a law enforcement 'sniper' is an exercise in ambition.

Talk about starting a fight! So generally speaking most LE "snipers" are blowing smoke? I know there thousands of "swat" teams with snipers, and in reality, most never shoot one round in a real LE situation during their time as a SWAT operator. You'd be amazed at how many small towns/subway police/etc. have a SWAT team! I'm looking forward to hearing from them, in response to Graham's post!

 

[Graham]

How the Hide has changed

Talk about starting a fight! So generally speaking most LE "snipers" are blowing smoke? I know there thousands of "swat" teams with snipers, and in reality, most never shoot one round in a real LE situation during their time as a SWAT operator. You'd be amazed at how many small towns/subway police/etc. have a SWAT team! I'm looking forward to hearing from them, in response to Graham's post!

Kindly don't put words in my mouth.

But there is indeed a very big difference between first tier LE snipers and designated marksmen/perimeter guys on fourth tier SWAT teams.

 

[Dogtown]

To be fair, a lot of military snipers are not Snipers either.

And lot of soldiers have been through Jump School, but they're not all paratroopers.

 

[Slapchop]

Kindly don't put words in my mouth.

But there is indeed a very big difference between first tier LE snipers and designated marksmen/perimeter guys on fourth tier SWAT teams.

"Perimeter swat team guys"? Kinda oxymoronish no?

You toss that word around a lot lately. "Tier this, tier that". In your opinion, how many tiers of LE special weapons and tactics are there and can you delineate the difference between each?

Pawprint2,
For the record, I don't believe that Graham was trying to start a fight and I actually agree with his original assertion.
[h=2][/h]

 

[J-Ham]

And lot of soldiers have been through Jump School, but they're not all paratroopers.

My point exactly, you were just a little more succinct than I was...

 

[Graham]

How the Hide has changed

You toss that word around a lot lately. "Tier this, tier that". In your opinion, how many tiers of LE special weapons and tactics are there and can you delineate the difference between each?

The word 'tier' is not being "tossed", the references are specific.

Military: Tier status denotes mission capabilities.

Tier one - lead agency for highest priority and covert missions. CT/CE/CP/Recovery and elimination of high value targets. Example: SFOD/Delta.

Tier two - Perform larger scale and clandestine operations. They maintain operational groups within their respective units. Example: Rangers.

Tier three - Also larger scale ops, including classified ops. Example: SEAL teams (other than team Six).

Law Enforcement:

Tier one SWAT teams have the budget, manpower and expertise to handle large scale events and have fully developed objective standards of selection, training and retention.

Tier one members train about 25% of their on duty time and teams are comprised of officers who have spent a considerable amount of time achieving the training and experience necessary to develop the skills required for a position on the team. Appointment is by competition.

Tier two: Like tier one, except its members have other shared responsibilities within the department.

Tier three: Well meaning but untrained, inexperienced, and all too often incompetent teams that assemble between ten and fourteen times a year and get called out six to ten times a year.

There is some debate about what constitutes Tier four, or even if there is one, but if there is, Tier four are the courtesy-appointment teams for which no skill set and no objective standards are required, and where no reputable outside training is given.

Most of the legal, ethical and public relations disasters involving SWAT-type units have been caused by Tiers three and four: Untrained, inexperienced and incompetent teams which should probably be disbanded before they unlawfully injure someone or get a fellow team member killed.

All of these teams can lay claim to having 'snipers'.

 

[Slapchop]

Thank you for your response.

 

[pawprint2]

Kindly don't put words in my mouth.

But there is indeed a very big difference between first tier LE snipers and designated marksmen/perimeter guys on fourth tier SWAT teams.

Did not attempt to "Put works in your mouth", in fact as you are somewhat sensitive I will happily give the direct quote, You said, "LE snipers are Snipers when they know and employ proper fieldcraft and are used on more than Hasty missions. Otherwise, calling yourself a law enforcement 'sniper' is an exercise in ambition. "

I've read numerous times that most "SWAT teams" snipers, that by their SOP, shall not take shots longer than 100 yards , and that the vast majority of SWAT team snipers, never take a shot (at a bad guy) during their time with a SWAT team. I know there are quite a few SWAT teams that have gained a following from their govt. funding agency, and have been able to spend, spend, and spend, but when you examine how many times they have been used, over a period of several years-you have to start to question the $$$$ spent! As most tax paying Americans are starting to realize, it does not grow on trees. For example: subway transit cop SWAT teams-the real cops in the town they operate in, could handle that mission, and most likely better, as they are utilized often, not once in a year or so. This type of duplication is expensive as hell to the tax payers. Yet the number of these "elite, SWAT teams" has grown across the US, and as it has grown, so has the number of SWAT "Sniper" qualified LE. When you look at the number of calls (missions) some of the really good SWAT teams go to in a month, it is often more than some of the "Subway SWAT teams" will go to in 5 years (those calls that actually required a SWAT team, not filling in/logging time/justifying a position etc.). As a matter of $$$$ spent, some things are better not duplicated, the best "bang" for the buck, has not always been the guiding force in the formation of these "SWAT" teams. Some observers have actually put forth an observation, that SWAT teams that are seldom used, when they are used- tend to make huge mistakes-they really wanted to use their toys at least once!

 

[Graham]

How the Hide has changed

Did not attempt to "Put works in your mouth", in fact as you are somewhat sensitive I will happily give the direct quote,

It is not about sensitivity, it is about accuracy.

And you would have been accurate had you quoted me the first time instead of doing so in defense of your interpretation of what I meant.

You accused me of saying that 'So generally speaking most LE "Snipers" are blowing smoke?' That's putting words in my mouth. I did not say that. That was your conclusion. And it is an incorrect one.